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2017/07/09 08:26:07
Subject: 2K Competitive - Jy2's Brimming With Horror Tzeentch Army vs Flyer-spam Orks w/Giant Squiggoth!
2000 Brimming With Horror Tzeentch vs Da Flying Orks
2000 Jy2's Brimming With Horror Tzeentch Army
I brought a pretty crazy Tzeentch list. This is one of the more competitive lists that I could think of (in my limited experience).
Battalion Detachment:
Changeling
Herald of Tzeentch - Staff of Change
Herald of Tzeentch - Staff of Change
29x Brimstone Horrors, 1x Blue Horror
29x Brimstone Horrors, 1x Blue Horror
29x Brimstone Horrors, 1x Blue Horror
19x Brimstone Horrors, 1x Blue Horror
9x Brimstone Horrors, 1x Blue Horror
9x Brimstone Horrors, 1x Blue Horror
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
Battalion Detachment:
Herald of Tzeentch - Staff of Change
Herald of Tzeentch - Staff of Change
29x Brimstone Horrors, 1x Blue Horror
29x Brimstone Horrors, 1x Blue Horror
29x Brimstone Horrors, 1x Blue Horror
19x Brimstone Horrors, 1x Blue Horror
9x Brimstone Horrors, 1x Blue Horror
10x Brimstone Horrors
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
Supreme Command Detachment:
Herald of Tzeentch - Staff of Change
Herald of Tzeentch - Staff of Change
Herald of Tzeentch - Staff of Change
Exalted Flamer
Magnus (Warlord)
Command Points: 10
Disclaimer:
Spoiler:
I apologize for the appearance of my army, but I want to test out this army build before committing to buying/building it. Thus, I will be using a lot of proxies. (I will be using my zombies as proxies for the Brimstone Horrors.) Also, I am using movement trays in order to save some time while playing this army. Each movement tray can and does hold 20 "Brimstones".
2000 Orks
I don't have a copy of my opponent's army list, so this is an approximation of his army from my memory.
Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment:
Gargantuan Squiggoth - Supa-lobba, Killkannon, 6x Twin Big Shootas
Battalion Detachment:
Big Mek - Kustom Force Field
Warboss - Power Klaw
Warboss - Power Klaw (Warlord)
10x Gretchins
10x Gretchins
10x Gretchins
10x Burna Boyz
5x Burna Boyz
Dakkajet - 6x Supa Shootas
Air Wing Detachment:
Dakkajet - 6x Supa Shootas
Dakkajet - 6x Supa Shootas
Dakkajet - 6x Supa Shootas
Dakkajet - 6x Supa Shootas
Dakkajet - 6x Supa Shootas
This army relies on the offense of the psychic power Smite. Every unit here - with the exception of the Exalted Flamers - can cast Smite. The Brimstones are not very reliable when casting (they only get 1D6 to cast or deny), but the Heralds of Tzeentch and Magnus can be brutal with it. The Staffs of Change give my Heralds an extra 6" of range for Smite. Hence, their threat range is 30" +D6" (for Advancing). The thing about Smite is that, unlike shooting, it does not matter if the enemy is within 1" of your unit (i.e. in close-combat). You can still hurt them via Smite. Such a list usually requires you to maximize the number of units in your army, thus maximizing your damage output (but at the same time, minimizing your chance to go 1st in the ITC). Exalted Flamers add some much needed anti-tank as well as some close-range shooting against assault armies (and in particular, cc-horde armies). Finally, Magnus gives me a beatstick, counter-attack unit against the more elite enemy fighting units.
The strength of my list lies in its resiliency. Not only are you going up against a horde army with over 270 models, but each and every one of those models have 4++ Invuln's! Moreover, the Changeling is the defensive lynchpin to my army. Enemy units are at -1 to hit (both with shooting and assault) any friendly Tzeentch Daemons within 9" of him. So you have to chew through 270+ models with 4++ and on top of that, most of them will be at -1 to hit unless you can snipe out the Changeling. Really, the only way to deal with this type of list is through massive volume of damage. If your army can't generate a shift-ton of wounds in damage, then the chances of you beating it is slim to none.
As for objectives, my Horrors will swarm the objectives and I will outnumber you in models. You need to either be able to kill a lot in a turn or you need to halt my advance with assault. Otherwise, your army will have no chance in the objectives game. This type of list will truly be a terror to play against for many, many armies, especially if they cannot deal with horde armies.
Orks:
Is Airhammer the new 40K Hotness? The first 2 major GT's of the new edition, the Boise Cup GT and the Caledonian GT, were both won by Flyer-spam lists (both involving Stormravens). Is this the trend the competitive tournament armies are heading towards? Because if it is, then my opponent has got a winner on his hands.
You want volume of damage? I'll give you volume. One thing my opponent's army can do is generate a lot of dice. Each Dakkajet puts out 18 36" S6 AP -1 shots. With 6 Dakkajets, that's 108 S6 shots a turn! Holy Crap!!! Then you have the Gargantuan Squiggoth. He puts out 3D6 S7 AP -2 shots at 48", D6 S7 AP -2 2-dmg shots at 24" and 36 S5 shots at 36". Finally, you've got the Burna Boyz. Each one does potentially D3 S4 auto-hits. With 15 Burnas, that's potentially 45 S4 Auto-hits. I haven't even factored in assault yet, which would definitely generate a lot more wounds. Volume is what it will take to deal with my army and volume is what my opponent has in spades.
I just want to make a note about my opponent's Gargantuan Squiggoth (I'll call it G-Squig for short). The G-Squig is to 8th as the Stompa was to 7th. Under-costed and over-powered, you get a lot of bang for the buck with G-Squig in this edition. For around the price of an Imperial Knight, you get a 35W monstrosity that can shoot a lot of shots and also transport 20 Ork Infantry models. Moreover, this guys is fearsome in assault. He's got 8 S12 AP -4 D6-dmg attacks. Both the G-Squig and the guys inside can still fire while the G-Squig is locked in combat (though not at units within 1"). Finally, when the G-Squig charges, he does D6 mortal wounds to any unit within 1" on a 2+. Wow!!! This guy is dangerous and soooo good.
My opponent does not really need to completely wipe out my Brimstone units. All he needs to do is kill 15-18 (from my 30-model units) and Morale should cause the rest to run away. He can focus on 1 unit at a time until he gets to that kill-level and then he can move onto the next unit.
So what do you think? Does my Brimstone Tzeentch army have the resiliency to last against the mighty firepower of the Orks? Are the un-assaultable (at least to all units in my army except Magnus) flyers the way to go in a competitive setting? Can I rely mainly on psychic powers as my main source of offense? Is Magnus going to go ham or the Hall of Shame?
All these questions will be answered soon. Until then, let me know what you think.
Orks finish deploying first. Dakkajets start off on my left flank. Burna Boyz, Big Mek and both Warbosses start off embarked in the Gargantuan Squiggoth (G-Squig).
Daemon deployment. I actually have enough proxied zombies for all my Brimstones, but in the interest of making this game go faster, we both agreed for me to use the movement trays for my Brimstone Horrors (each tray holds 20). Magnus and Changeling stay central to my army. There's no way for me to hide Magnus from his flyers anyways so I thought to myself, what the heck. Want sum? Come git sum!
Overview of our deployment.
For my 3rd game in a row now, despite giving my opponent +1 to his roll to go first in each of those games, I still win the roll to go first!
I advance my entire army. I decide to play it cool with Magnus. He stays with the army this turn.
No Psychic powers or shooting. My army is out of range due to good deployment from my opponent.
Tip: You can advance and still fire psychic powers. Thus, the actual threat range of my horrors are 18" + 6" + D6".
Orks 1
Spoiler:
My opponent actually surprises me with his movement. Basically, his planes turn 90 degrees and just fly within his own deployment zone:
Note: There is no facing anymore for vehicles. They basically have 360 degrees of shooting now. Thus, his dakkajets will have range to hit most of my units and they can even shoot at units behind them.
G-Squiq stays in place.
I forget to take photos of his Shooting phase but this is what he does. He declines to shoot at Magnus. Rather, he fires at 2 units of 30 brimstones that I forget to keep inside of the Changeling's -1 to hit bubble (oops!). His whole army shoots at them and he kills off 11 brimstones from one and 13 from the other. He is hoping for failed Morale to kill them off. However, I roll a 1 for Morale on 1 unit and a 3 on the other. Each unit survives with 9-10 models left! You could say that my opponent was not too pleased about that.
Brimming with Horror 2
Spoiler:
Daemons continue to put the pressure on.
Brimstones screen out Magnus to protect him from the G-Squig.
Daemons then Smite down 1 Dakkajet (position marked by the red die) for First Blood as well as most of the screening Gretchins. Morale would then cause the rest of the Gretchins to run away.
1 Herald casts Boon of Change on Magnus, thereby increasing his Toughness by +1. (By the ways, I fail to cast Boon on Turn 1.)
With Magnus now at T8, I decided that now was the time to strike. Magnus casts Warptime to get up close and personal with G-Squig. I don't quite remember whether the damage on Magnus was due to shooting last turn or Overwatch this turn.
In any case, he assaults. Hitting on 2's with re-roll's and wounding on 2's due to S16 and with no saves, Magnus does 15W of damage to G-Squig. In return, G-Squig completely whiffs and manages only to do 1W of damage.
Orks 2
Spoiler:
Dakkajets all fly across and into my deployment zone. All of them still have range to Magnus with their guns.
G-Squig backs away and his 2 Warbosses come out for a little play time.
With Magnus out of the Changeling's buff range, the Orks focus their entire army into Magnus. That's 90 S6 Dakkajet shots and whatever else from G-Squiq but thanks to being T8 (everything wounding on 5's!), Magnus suffers another 6W of damage only (9W of damage so far, 9W remaining).
Warbosses then charge.
They do 3W of damage to Magnus and then both Warbosses die to Magnus' counter-attack. I get Slay the Warlord.
Things are not looking good for the Orks.
Brimming with Horror 3
Spoiler:
Not much movement for Daemons this turn. Magnus prepares to re-charge G-Squig. I don't bother to try to block off the Dakkajet's movement paths in order to minimize the time taken for my Movement phase (I try to play fast).
Smite combined with shooting from my Exalted Flamers take down 2 Dakkajets (positions marked by the red dice).
Daemons do another 7W of damage to G-Squig with Smite (22W total, 13W remaining).
Magnus then charges in....
....and takes out G-Squig.
Orks 3
Spoiler:
Burna Boyz prepare to take out Magnus.
Dakkajets move but have their sights set on Magnus as well.
It takes both Shooting from what was left of his army and charging Magnus as well to take out my Warlord.
Brimming with Horror 4
Spoiler:
It took my opponent 2 full turns of fighting with his entire army just to take out Magnus. Meanwhile, he barely touched any of my Brimstones, who are on all 4 objectives currently. At this rate, my opponent can't win and it looks like a potential tabling in perhaps 2 turns.
With that, we call the game. My opponent gets 1-point for killing my Warlord. I get everything else. Tzeentch wins 19-1.
Crushing Victory for Brimming With Horror - Tzeentch!!!
To be honest, my opponent did not really enjoy this game. His main gripe was that as a horde army, it took too long to play and in a tournament setting where there is a limit on play time, it would not be fair to the other player who is running a normal list. He even helped me in my Movement phase by helping me move some of my models. The reason why he felt this way was because he has been "burned" before in tournament play by slow-playing horde players. I understand. It is a legitimate concern. As a tournament player myself, I would be concerned as well if I was facing a horde player sitting across from me.
However, I was legitimately trying my best to speed things along. What did I do?
1) I used Movement trays to help speed up my Deployment and Movement phases.
2) I asked my opponent to help move my models throughout the game.
3) For the most part, I skipped my Shooting phase. My Exalted Flamers only shot once throughout the game.
4) I didn't try to block the movement of my opponent's flyers, as that would have made my Movement phase even longer. I just let them do what they want.
5) With the exception of Magnus, I skipped the Assault phase. Did not even try to charge with my Brimstones even once.
6) Even though my army is horde, I did not not roll a lot of dice. Rolling dice takes time, especially when you have to pick out the misses/hits and you have a bucketful of dice (and this is not counting re-rolls that some armies have). Each of my interactions only used at most 6-7 dice (unless I was making saves against my opponent's offense). That's one of the issues with a horde army. They roll 100+ dice in the Shooting or Assault phase. My army probably rolls at most 50 dice in my turns (not including saves I have to make). My army is not dice-intensive, which makes it a little faster to play than other horde armies.
In the future, I think that my speed should only increase for the following reasons:
1) As I gain more experience, my play should go faster. This was my first game with a horde army in a long, long time and with a new edition of rules.
2) I plan on running less Brimstones in the future. Maybe around 180-200 as opposed to the 260 I ran in this game.
3) I've actually already purchased a lot of movement trays. In the future, my entire units of Brimstones could be on trays, thus speeding up my Deployment and Movement phases even more.
4) As an experienced gamer, I will utilize other tips/tricks to make my games go faster. Tips like using my opponent's dice for my saves if he is rolling lots of dice (this saves me the time to count out my own dice) or asking my opponent to help me with some of the stuff my army needs to do (i.e. mainly helping me to move my models).
I think having to play a horde army bothered my opponent. However, what I feel really bothered him the most was frustration. The frustration and feeling of helplessness when one's army just isn't able to do much against another's. For one turn, he focused his entire army to kill 2 units. He only ended up killing 40 models (only 80-pts in my army) and he couldn't even wipe out a unit! Think about it. 2000-pts of firepower and he didn't even put a dent in my army. Then for the next 2 turns, he had to focus 100% of his army just to try to kill 1 model (Magnus). Of course it didn't help that his dice were subpar (in assault with the Squiggoth) and that my saves were above-average (Magnus). But when you can't do much to another army, you just don't feel the interaction. Back in 7th Edition, there was a competitive build called Battle Company. It was a strong tournament army and usually won most of its games. However, opponents still enjoyed playing against it because they were taking out units left and right. Even though opponents would oftentimes lose to Battle Company, they still enjoyed themselves because the interaction between units was still engaging. There was a feeling of empowerment as the opponent was able to remove many units before eventually losing. Against my army, I imagine the feeling was quite the opposite. Even though I ran a lot of units also, the fact that his army could not do much to mine must have made it quite boring for him to play against. The interaction in this case was one-sided as he could not kill any of my units and I was removing his willy-nilly.
So a word of caution. From this experience and from my opponent's reaction, Tzeentch Brimstone-spam might not be a fun army to play against. This type of list is pretty insane with regards to how much damage it can soak up and only the most hardcore of lists will have a chance against it. Personally, I would not run this type of list in casual or even semi-competitive environments. I would only run it in tournament play or if one of my opponents requests to practice against it. I am writing up my experience with this type of list to bring exposure to it, because you will see it in tournament play. It is a highly competitive build that will present problems to many armies. Also, it may be the trend of the new competitive meta. Yes, horde armies are strong in this edition. The chances of you playing against one in tournament play is high. So will the chances of you being slow-played against these types of armies, whether unintentional or otherwise. If you plan to run a horde army, make sure to get in enough practice so that you can play your game in a timely fashion and so that you don't hog up 2-hours in a 2.5-hour timed game. Unlike in previous editions, slow-playing will be more of a factor in 8th as more and more people start running horde armies in this edition. So practice, be considerate and don't run a Tzeentch Brimstone army in casual play.
This message was edited 21 times. Last update was at 2017/07/11 17:23:38
Looking forward to this. Hopefully the new and improved GWFAQs the point cost of brimstone and razorwing flocks soon. I really don't want these kinds of lists being the new hotness.
2017/07/09 16:39:35
Subject: 2K Competitive - Jy2's Brimming With Horror Tzeentch Army vs Flyer-spam Orks w/Giant Squiggoth!
It'll be very telling on the early competitive trend of 8th.
djones520 wrote: If he gets an early kill on Magnus, I think he's got this. If not, you're going to bury him in numbers.
It all depends on Magnus.
Honestly, going into this matchup, I was confident with Magnus. Was my confidence short-lived? We'll find out.
Hückleberry wrote: Looking forward to this. Hopefully the new and improved GWFAQs the point cost of brimstone and razorwing flocks soon. I really don't want these kinds of lists being the new hotness.
The points of the Brimstones are consistent with what they were back in 7th so I'm not sure if it will be updated. Then again, last edition Brimstones had 2W but only 5++ and in this edition, they are 1W with 4++. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if their points went up slightly to pay for that 4++.
I'm not too familiar with Razorwing Flocks, but I'm guessing it's safe to assume that they are cheap for what they do/bring?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/09 16:40:23
I'll actually ran a similar list 2 weeks ago. Min-Maxing the horrors works best as you get more smites and mitigate moral. If youre going with 30 man squads though, consider fateweaver/LOC for the moral buff.
I found Magnus to be a lame duck. Personally I'd replace him with 3+ Slaneesh Heralds on exhalted chariots.
2017/07/09 19:36:31
Subject: 2K Competitive - Jy2's Brimming With Horror Tzeentch Army vs Flyer-spam Orks w/Giant Squiggoth!
iddy00711 wrote: I'll actually ran a similar list 2 weeks ago. Min-Maxing the horrors works best as you get more smites and mitigate moral. If youre going with 30 man squads though, consider fateweaver/LOC for the moral buff.
I found Magnus to be a lame duck. Personally I'd replace him with 3+ Slaneesh Heralds on exhalted chariots.
I have a list with and without Magnus. However, my list without Magnus does not run any characters with more than 10W so that they cannot be sniped. It's either Magnus or Be'lakor for me. Even though Magnus can be killed, at least he is more resilient than both Fatey or the LoC.
But I may experiment with other Heralds. This was only my 1st game with Chaos.
By the ways, everything is wounding my Brimstones on 2's, even the S2 Gretchins. Volume is what it will take to deal with my army and volume is what my opponent has in spades.
Check your book again, chief. Brimstones might be strength 1, but they're toughness 3. Dakkajets will unfortunately still try to chew them up on 2's, but Gretchin are wounding on 5's and those autohits from the Burnas on 3's.
2017/07/09 22:11:45
Subject: 2K Competitive - Jy2's Brimming With Horror Tzeentch Army vs Flyer-spam Orks w/Giant Squiggoth!
By the ways, everything is wounding my Brimstones on 2's, even the S2 Gretchins. Volume is what it will take to deal with my army and volume is what my opponent has in spades.
Check your book again, chief. Brimstones might be strength 1, but they're toughness 3. Dakkajets will unfortunately still try to chew them up on 2's, but Gretchin are wounding on 5's and those autohits from the Burnas on 3's.
Oh well, I guess I was playing with a handicap. Lol.
Thanks for pointing it out. I will edit my Pre-game Analysis.
I think you may be better served with daemon princes rather than Magnus. I know Magnus is the smite king but he can be picked out by shooting. You could take two daemon princes with wings and claws and probably shove another herald in there giving you 3 more smites and some counterattack that can't be hurt by shooting. Just a thought.
2017/07/10 06:34:13
Subject: 2K Competitive - Jy2's Brimming With Horror Tzeentch Army vs Flyer-spam Orks w/Giant Squiggoth!
swanson4969 wrote: I think you may be better served with daemon princes rather than Magnus. I know Magnus is the smite king but he can be picked out by shooting. You could take two daemon princes with wings and claws and probably shove another herald in there giving you 3 more smites and some counterattack that can't be hurt by shooting. Just a thought.
There are 3 options which I will try out:
1) With Magnus.
2) No Magnus. Be'lakor and/or Daemon Prince instead.
3) No Magnus. No Be'lakor/DP. Just more Heralds and Exalted Flamers.
Each one can be great in the right situation. It's hard to decide right now for me until I get a little more experience under my belt. Yeah, I am concerned about units like Magnus/Fateweaver/LoC getting alpha-struck. On the other hand, they can bring so much to the table.
GrafWattenburg wrote: Glad to see you're still making BatReps, Jy2! I think the Daemon swarm will be able to drown the orks and block his flyers' movement
My opponent played it expertly with the movement of his flyers. It would have been very hard for me to try to block his flyer's movements so I just didn't bother. You'll see in my report.
swanson4969 wrote: I think you may be better served with daemon princes rather than Magnus. I know Magnus is the smite king but he can be picked out by shooting. You could take two daemon princes with wings and claws and probably shove another herald in there giving you 3 more smites and some counterattack that can't be hurt by shooting. Just a thought.
There are 3 options which I will try out:
1) With Magnus.
2) No Magnus. Be'lakor and/or Daemon Prince instead.
3) No Magnus. No Be'lakor/DP. Just more Heralds and Exalted Flamers.
Each one can be great in the right situation. It's hard to decide right now for me until I get a little more experience under my belt. Yeah, I am concerned about units like Magnus/Fateweaver/LoC getting alpha-struck. On the other hand, they can bring so much to the table.
If you can't find a way to proxy in Stormcast Eternals...you're not doing it right.
Veriamp wrote:I have emerged from my lurking to say one thing. When Mat taught the Necrons to feel, he taught me to love.
Keep magnus. He's too good not to. I will have my revenge on you JY2! I owe you a pounding from the beat down I took from your nids last year at the BAO! No more space faeries and fish faces.
This year... this year the tide will rise... and it will be green.
2017/07/11 04:00:37
Subject: 2K Competitive - Jy2's Brimming With Horror Tzeentch Army vs Flyer-spam Orks w/Giant Squiggoth!
doktor_g wrote: Keep magnus. He's too good not to. I will have my revenge on you JY2! I owe you a pounding from the beat down I took from your nids last year at the BAO! No more space faeries and fish faces.
This year... this year the tide will rise... and it will be green.
We shall play again one of these days, my friend.
Btw, the Green Tide is probably the one Ork build that will give my Tzeentch army the most problems.
luke1705 wrote: You're really making Magnus look like a super star here. I don't know if he's really that good but he is definitely a solid choice.
To be fair, Magnus did roll better than average with his saves and I did use 1 or 2 of my Command Points to re-roll his saves. But he definitely did exceed my expectations in this game. However, he is a concern and/or liability against certain armies (like my own Walking Dread Space Wolves with Shadowsword). Hence, I am ambivalent with regards to running him in a tournament setting. I think more playtesting on my part is required (and not necessarily with my Brimstone Tzeentch army).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Post-game Analysis up.....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/11 15:41:38
I would like to see a rematch with the Orks going first.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2017/07/11 17:24:13
Subject: Re:2K Competitive - Jy2's Brimming With Horror Tzeentch Army vs Flyer-spam Orks w/Giant Squiggoth!
I'm curious how a tweak of the Ork 'Flyahmob' list might work and that the real weakness in this list were the Dakkajets? 18 BS4+ S6 AP-1 shots sound nice but lack in the AP department and what hits is still damage 1. How do you think the below would fare by comparison?
Primark G wrote: I would like to see a rematch with the Orks going first.
My guess is that he'd kill Magnus 1 turn earlier but then still get over-run by Brimstones. It would have been a closer game for sure and we probably would have played it out to its natural conclusion, but I believe I had just too many resilient bodies for him to shift off of the objectives.
GhostRecon wrote: I'm curious how a tweak of the Ork 'Flyahmob' list might work and that the real weakness in this list were the Dakkajets? 18 BS4+ S6 AP-1 shots sound nice but lack in the AP department and what hits is still damage 1. How do you think the below would fare by comparison?
Kill Tank [15 PL, 301pts]: Giga Shoota, Reinforced Ram, Twin Big Shoota, 2x Twin Big Shoota
++ Total: [105 PL, 1999pts] ++
It's hard for me to say for sure, especially since I am not totally familiar with Orks.
It's hard to judge the damage output of the flyers exactly, but one thing I know is that the Burna-bommers would have difficulty flying over my units to drop their bombs over any meaningful targets. Also, while this list has better AP weaponry, that means nothing to my army. My army doesn't really care whether your guns are AP -1 or AP -4. I'm still taking my 4++ saves. As a TAC list, your list might do better against other armies but against my Tzeentch build, the volume that the Dakkajets can put out might give them a slight advantage. Against my army, it really is quantity of shots over quality of shots.
Moreover, if the bommers get close to my army, then I can probably fire my Exalted Flamers at them with D6 auto-hit shots (that was something I wasn't able to do in this game).
Between the Kill Tank and the Gargantuan Squiggoth, I'd go with G-Squig. Shooting-wise they are fairly even. But in terms of resiliency and assault, G-Squig has a big edge.
I think your list might be a slightly better overall Take-All-Comer's list, but against my army, the Dakkajet list might fare a little better.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MagicJuggler wrote: Having witnessed an 8e Blue Horror list the week before the official 8e drop, I was afraid this would happen.
Dare I say 7e was actually less clunky and spammy?
Metas shift and change. At least with 8th, you don't have to contend with Deathstars and psychic craziness. It's much simpler now. Just bring enough raw firepower/assault to deal with the hordes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/11 17:59:02
The thing was Psykers themselves weren't actually *that* crazy outside of Daemon flying Circuses, or said Deathstars. Running multiple small Psykers was less efficient than having one or two big Psykers (or a Conclave) to serve as a focal point for all the tertiary Warp Charge. Armies like pure GK or Thousand Sons were actually pretty horrible, and nobody ever ran Warlocks outside of a Conclave (and even that's a stretch).
The "Psychic Focus"/only being able to attempt a power once per turn means you want to cast those powers with the Psyker most likely to succeed. Naturally, this means Magnus.
The more things change...
2017/07/11 18:32:54
Subject: 2K Competitive - Jy2's Brimming With Horror Tzeentch Army vs Flyer-spam Orks w/Giant Squiggoth!
Magnus was your MVP this game... he did a lot of heavy lifting. I think Orks could have won if he had died earlier. Being able to get him up to T8 is a really big deal and really helped versus those flyers.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2017/07/11 18:39:00
Subject: Re:2K Competitive - Jy2's Brimming With Horror Tzeentch Army vs Flyer-spam Orks w/Giant Squiggoth!
Primark G wrote: I would like to see a rematch with the Orks going first.
My guess is that he'd kill Magnus 1 turn earlier but then still get over-run by Brimstones. It would have been a closer game for sure and we probably would have played it out to its natural conclusion, but I believe I had just too many resilient bodies for him to shift off of the objectives.
GhostRecon wrote: I'm curious how a tweak of the Ork 'Flyahmob' list might work and that the real weakness in this list were the Dakkajets? 18 BS4+ S6 AP-1 shots sound nice but lack in the AP department and what hits is still damage 1. How do you think the below would fare by comparison?
Kill Tank [15 PL, 301pts]: Giga Shoota, Reinforced Ram, Twin Big Shoota, 2x Twin Big Shoota
++ Total: [105 PL, 1999pts] ++
It's hard for me to say for sure, especially since I am not totally familiar with Orks.
It's hard to judge the damage output of the flyers exactly, but one thing I know is that the Burna-bommers would have difficulty flying over my units to drop their bombs over any meaningful targets. Also, while this list has better AP weaponry, that means nothing to my army. My army doesn't really care whether your guns are AP -1 or AP -4. I'm still taking my 4++ saves. As a TAC list, your list might do better against other armies but against my Tzeentch build, the volume that the Dakkajets can put out might give them a slight advantage. Against my army, it really is quantity of shots over quality of shots.
Moreover, if the bommers get close to my army, then I can probably fire my Exalted Flamers at them with D6 auto-hit shots (that was something I wasn't able to do in this game).
Between the Kill Tank and the Gargantuan Squiggoth, I'd go with G-Squig. Shooting-wise they are fairly even. But in terms of resiliency and assault, G-Squig has a big edge.
I think your list might be a slightly better overall Take-All-Comer's list, but against my army, the Dakkajet list might fare a little better.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MagicJuggler wrote: Having witnessed an 8e Blue Horror list the week before the official 8e drop, I was afraid this would happen.
Dare I say 7e was actually less clunky and spammy?
Metas shift and change. At least with 8th, you don't have to contend with Deathstars and psychic craziness. It's much simpler now. Just bring enough raw firepower/assault to deal with the hordes.
Forgot about the 4++ with Tzeench. Yeah - ouch. Burna-Bombas might get away with flying obliques since they can drop if they fly over even a sliver of the unit, but yeah you do have so many Brimstone horrors it'd still be hard to find a place to go.
I do think the killtank might be a slightly better option - about the same volume of shooting (6d6 on a gigashoota, for example, vs 2x 3D6 w/two supalobbbas) at BS4+ that can move and shoot - GSquig gets 5+ and has no ability to allow it to move and shoot heavy weapons; a bit cheaper, too. GSquig is definitely more resilient and makes a great 'fortress anchor' with all those shootas and no negative modifier to its passengers' shooting.
This kind of horde list, though, definitely feels like a good hard-counter to the flier spam lists. Makes me wonder how a green tide list would do against it.
Do you/Does anybody happen to know what the Orc list was that got 2nd place at the Caledonian GT was? Mostly focused on the Orks in this case to try and see how they might counter jy2's list - since it won this match up!
2017/07/11 19:27:23
Subject: 2K Competitive - Jy2's Brimming With Horror Tzeentch Army vs Flyer-spam Orks w/Giant Squiggoth!
Those dakkajets simply were not the correct platform for killing Magnus, although granted thats all he really had.
Even with 106 shots.
Hitting on 4s is 53 hits.
Then wounding on 5s equals about 17 wounds.
Magnus has a 3++ (?). So thats about 6W a turn assuming he dosent CP any saves and if he got above average luck you can take it as about 5W a turn. It would have taken him roughly 3-4 full turns of ploughing everything he had into him.
Just a mismatch overall imho.
You should play your SW Dread list VS this list JY2. Just out of interest!
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
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