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I'm having a bit of a dilemma. I love thunderwolf cavalry, and currently have a unit of 5 in my SW list. But I also run a unit of 5 Wolf Guard Bikers. The Wolf Guard Bikers have an interesting rule that the thunderwolves don't have: "any model can take an item from the combi-weapons list." This is not a swap, wolf guard bikers can just take a storm bolter for 2 points and still use their other "hands" for a chainsword/melee weapon and a storm shield. So 5 bikers can pull off the 40 shot bolter volley in 12" range, using storm bolters and twin boltguns on bikes, and still have there melee weapons and storm shields for close combat and survivability. Their storm shields are also 5 points compared to 15 for the thunderwolves. Now the thunderwolves do get 1 more wound, and three str 5 ap -1 damage 1 attacks from the wolves themselves, but cost more points over all. Are the bikes just strictly better? I think they might be. They also move 14" versus 10" and auto advance 6".

I think if you want an outright CC squad to hammer the enemy then TWC are still top dog (so to speak). Their extra wound is also handy if you combine them with a Wolf Priest to heal them up. However they do cost more, particular for the SS.

Bikers are much more flexible and also faster. As noted, they can unload a fearsome amount of shooting at close range and still pack a respectable punch in CC.

TH/SS/SB Biker costs 61 points while a TH/SS TWC costs 75 points. The Biker gets 4 S4 shots at 12" while the TWC gets an extra 3 S5 -1AP attacks in CC. The biker gets 2 wounds and the TWC gets 3.

I think that the 2 options are surprisingly well balanced in terms of value for points but that the TWC are entirely CC-orientated. Personally I am planning to run WG Bikers as I think I prefer the tactical flexibility and I have a load of spare bikes which makes building them a lot easier on the wallet. Plus I always felt that Marines riding giant wolves was just a tiny bit silly.

Yeah I agree. I think if you're talking maximum efficiency, the bikes are better, having near identical melee capability, but greatly enhanced shooting, is what wins out. But in the spirit of keeping it fun and flavorful, I'll probably still run a unit of each.

I would also consider that a model with a stormbolter, storm shield and thunder hammer is not something that sits well with the RAI of 8th and I am pretty sure that this will not be possible any more once the codex drops. I definately won't build bikers with this loadout until I have the codex in hands

Probably not even then as it would look silly :(

You can put the Storm Shield on the arm that is steering then in the other hand, mix storm bolters and Thunderhammers. Should look fine.

I agree there is a risk that the possibility to put 3 items of wargear on our PAWG may not last when our new codex eventually arrives. Possibly I would magnetise your weapons, that way when the codex drops, you can switch to whichever configuration turns out to be best.

Giving everyone everything is also a bit excessive in my opninion. 1-2 THs and 2-3 SS should be enough.
10 IG with FRFSRF or a Smite easily kill a biker, SS or not.

I like this PAWG biker idea, though probably with just Storm Bolters and Storm Shields, losing your mobility and 40 shots a turn while in assault seems pointless unless you need to tie up or finish a unit off.

Thanks for all the feedback. I am waiting to see what happens with the codex, it MIGHT be a typo in the index. I was not planning on having them all with storm bolters, storm shields, and thunder hammers, but all with storm bolters ans storm shields, and then maybe two thunder hammers. But remember with RAW, even the ones without thunder hammers will still have access to a chainsword for +1 attack at no loss of points or other weapons. It's a pretty OP unit as written. And to your comment about keeping them out of combat, why would you? They're equally good in both phases. Have them power out a volley of 40 bolter shots then charge in with some pretty killer gear, good attacks, and survivability.

Oddly, my response has nothing to do with numbers or math, but the rule of Cool: Thunderwolf Cavalry is far cooler than a motorbike, thus should be taken whenever possible.

Coyotepunc wrote:
Oddly, my response has nothing to do with numbers or math, but the rule of Cool: Thunderwolf Cavalry is far cooler than a motorbike, thus should be taken whenever possible.

I think they're cool. But you'll hear an equal amount of people on these forums that think a space marine on a wolf looks ridiculous.

I'm assembling bikers as we speak so you might say I'm sold on the idea.

In terms of survivability WG bikers are pretty much equal to the TWC of 7th edition, and they were quite tough. In terms of damage output, I think they are superior because they pump out so many shots. Although I didn't come to compare them to TWC until recently. Rather I am thinking them as a replacement for troops.

Going to keep them focused on dakka with just a frost sword on leader, since I have other units to tackle with tougher targets. WG bikers are on infantry/horde thinning duty and at that they are second to none I think. I'm not super worried on losing the chain sword when codex drops, as long as SB/SS is still an option.

TWC and wolf guard bikers don't compete each other. You may want both of them.

I can't play SW without TWC, and I'm planning to assemble 6 wolf guard bikers with stormbolters beacuse what I need is to clear cheap troops from distance.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

peteralmo wrote:


But you'll hear an equal amount of people on these forums that think a space marine on a wolf looks ridiculous.

I started SW only beacuse of them and wulfen, as I hate the classic SM stuff

I've got a bigish army of bikers (about 30 or so) that I use with my Inquisition army. They are all Forgeworld bikes cause I love the models. They are a custom chapter, so they tend to change chapter as the wind blows. I guess in 8th they will be wolves.

I suddenly have a feeling that the prefered target in 8th Edition for TWC might have changed. Previously with storm shield and rending rule on everyone, tons of attacks and a few hidden S10 Powerfists, they are meant to run over big nasty monsters in assault, such as Carnifexes, Riptides, and maybe Daemon Princes and Wraith Knights. But now, they looked more suitable for handling "depleted hordes" (of course I do not mean hordes in their full strength, a 30 boyz Ork mob or 30 strong Hormagant brood still will drown TWC with thousands of attacks), if their size had been reduce to 15 - 20 strong, it could be the time for TWC to charge them. With Chainsword they have 3 S4 attacks each, and the Wolf offer another 3 S5 AP-1 attacks, if you give them pistol, that is equal to another out of phase S4 attack (assume Bolt pistol). So it means a minimun unit can dish out 21 strikes a turn. Despite being "only" S4/5 should be able to further mulch the hordes. And the 3W are better in capability in tanking lots of low Str attacks in return.

The task of charging big monsters could now be handed to Wolf Guard bikers, if taking hammers or powerfists, their high Str offensive output is same as TWC. Meanwhile considering that those big bad guys usually have melee weapons with 6 or 3 or D6 damages, the 2 wounds nature of WG Bikers are now the "advantage" over TWC, Because..... you are wasting your enemy's strength

Neophyte2012 wrote:
I suddenly have a feeling that the prefered target in 8th Edition for TWC might have changed. Previously with storm shield and rending rule on everyone, tons of attacks and a few hidden S10 Powerfists, they are meant to run over big nasty monsters in assault, such as Carnifexes, Riptides, and maybe Daemon Princes and Wraith Knights. But now, they looked more suitable for handling "depleted hordes"

I am not sure. 5 WG Bikers with storm bolters put out 40 S4 shots per turn for just 180 points. That should kill 11 orks or 18 Gaunts. That should take care of any depleted units.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
The task of charging big monsters could now be handed to Wolf Guard bikers, if taking hammers or powerfists, their high Str offensive output is same as TWC. Meanwhile considering that those big bad guys usually have melee weapons with 6 or 3 or D6 damages, the 2 wounds nature of WG Bikers are now the "advantage" over TWC, Because..... you are wasting your enemy's strength

And don't forget the Bikers are cheaper since the SS costs them 5 points rather than the TWC's 15 points. If you are running this type of squad, I would definitely consider a Wolf Priest on bike to ride with them. Partly to heal the odd would but mostly for rerolls in CC. That -1 to Hit on hammers or fists really sucks.

Yeah, It doesn't have to be an either or, my list now runs one of each. I will say this though, the biker unit, as written, is incredibly good. Can't wait to see if they make it through to the codex unscathed.

Sadly wolf priests don't give some sort of FNP anymore but can only restore some wounds thate were previously lost. Bikes only have 2 wounds, which means that maybe the healing ability of the priest is wasted, the enemy units must cause an odd number of unsaved wounds. Thunderwolves have 3 wounds and it's more likely that some of them are going to end the turn with 1-2 wounds left, not to mention that usually there's an HQ with them with 4-7 wounds.

I love the idea of a wolf priest for my TWC, alas I'm going with wolf lord + arjac at the moment.

My planned 2000-point SW army will have 2 4-man units of TWC (all will have Stormshields, leaders will have hammers, one guy in each unit will have a Frost Axe), and a unit of WG bikes with Storm Bolters and a Frost weapon on the leader. I think both units are good in different ways.

peteralmo wrote:
Yeah I agree. I think if you're talking maximum efficiency, the bikes are better, having near identical melee capability, but greatly enhanced shooting, is what wins out. But in the spirit of keeping it fun and flavorful, I'll probably still run a unit of each.

St10 vs st 8 though.

at least power/hammer wise.

 Desubot wrote:

peteralmo wrote:
Yeah I agree. I think if you're talking maximum efficiency, the bikes are better, having near identical melee capability, but greatly enhanced shooting, is what wins out. But in the spirit of keeping it fun and flavorful, I'll probably still run a unit of each.

St10 vs st 8 though.

at least power/hammer wise.

TWC do not have S10 hammers any more.

 Weazel wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

peteralmo wrote:
Yeah I agree. I think if you're talking maximum efficiency, the bikes are better, having near identical melee capability, but greatly enhanced shooting, is what wins out. But in the spirit of keeping it fun and flavorful, I'll probably still run a unit of each.

St10 vs st 8 though.

at least power/hammer wise.

TWC do not have S10 hammers any more.

Oh i derped

i saw T5 and though it was S5

my bad

Seems to me the primary difference is that the wolf it self also attacks with a 3 shot heavy bolter in CC.

Correct, there are pluses and minuses to both, with the wolves edging out in CC and the bikes edging out in shooting. The initial premise, though, was that where wolves are essentially nothing in the shooting phase, the bikes are pretty incredible against infantry in the shooting phase, and can be pretty darn tough in the combat phase as well.