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So, in the book "Dark Imperium" Cawl tells Gulliman that he should consider using marines that have not just the gene-seed of traitor legions, but also of the 2nd and 11th legions. Gulliman referred to their Primarchs as "failed" and of course refused.

It does make me wonder a few things though.

1. How did Cawl get a hold of 2nd and 11th Geneseed?

2. Is it possible Gulliman would change his mind? The way he refused makes me speculate that not only were the primarchs flawed, but their geneseed was too. This also conflicts with the suggestions made in "The first Heretic" that the marines of the censured legions were reassigned to other legions, most notably the Word Bearers.

I'd love to see some separate story arcs that include Primaris Marines of the two "lost" legions. Being as GW seems to be willing to move the story line along with bringing back chaos Primarchs and now a loyalist Primarch, they may be open to the idea of revealing more information about the 2nd and the 11th.

What say you Dakkadakka, would you like to see more storyline regarding the 2nd and 11th?

 Supertony51 wrote:
1. How did Cawl get a hold of 2nd and 11th Geneseed?

Cawl was given full access to the geneseed vaults on Terra as part of enacting the Primaris Project. 2nd and 11th geneseed would absolutely be still be among them.

This also conflicts with the suggestions made in "The first Heretic" that the marines of the censured legions were reassigned to other legions, most notably the Word Bearers.

This never happened. It was a pair of Word Bearers talking gak about a legion that they personally hated. They're making up crackpot theories regarding something that we as the readers already know the answer to. How did the Ultramarines get so big? They had an extremely efficient training and logistics program and a huge number of worlds to recruit from. ADB, who wrote the scene in the first place, has said that had he believed so many people would take the opinion of a Word Bearer about an Ultramarine at face value, he never would've written it.

What say you Dakkadakka, would you like to see more storyline regarding the 2nd and 11th?

Nah. It was an inclusion for people to come up with their own possibilities regarding Primaris marines, but I wouldn't want any sort of significant hints that could further characterize them missing legions.

The missing legions are best left as a mystery. It's bad enough what GW's horus heresy novels did to the primarchs. Some mysteries should remain unsolved.

Yeah, the missing Legions should remain a mystery just out of reach. I do like seeing teasy little mentions and clues here and there, but that's all it should ever be.

 Supertony51 wrote:
So, in the book "Dark Imperium" Cawl tells Gulliman that he should consider using marines that have not just the gene-seed of traitor legions, but also of the 2nd and 11th legions. Gulliman referred to their Primarchs as "failed" and of course refused.

...

2. Is it possible Gulliman would change his mind?

I highly doubt it, not to mention I very much disagree with them being brought into the canon beyond "Their records were completely expunged". It will add no value at all to the lore or the games to bring them back. Plus if remains as them being The Lost and The Forgotten, it also opens up people to do projects like "The Lightning Bearers" (seriously - Google it).

jareddm wrote:

 Supertony51 wrote:
1. How did Cawl get a hold of 2nd and 11th Geneseed?

Cawl was given full access to the geneseed vaults on Terra as part of enacting the Primaris Project. 2nd and 11th geneseed would absolutely be still be among them.

With the expunging of everything else, why would their Gene-Seed remain?

jareddm wrote:

 Supertony51 wrote:
1. How did Cawl get a hold of 2nd and 11th Geneseed?

Cawl was given full access to the geneseed vaults on Terra as part of enacting the Primaris Project. 2nd and 11th geneseed would absolutely be still be among them.

This also conflicts with the suggestions made in "The first Heretic" that the marines of the censured legions were reassigned to other legions, most notably the Word Bearers.

This never happened. It was a pair of Word Bearers talking gak about a legion that they personally hated. They're making up crackpot theories regarding something that we as the readers already know the answer to. How did the Ultramarines get so big? They had an extremely efficient training and logistics program and a huge number of worlds to recruit from. ADB, who wrote the scene in the first place, has said that had he believed so many people would take the opinion of a Word Bearer about an Ultramarine at face value, he never would've written it.

What say you Dakkadakka, would you like to see more storyline regarding the 2nd and 11th?

Nah. It was an inclusion for people to come up with their own possibilities regarding Primaris marines, but I wouldn't want any sort of significant hints that could further characterize them missing legions.

This, basically.

Cawl has access to the geneseed, but we have no idea how. Personally, I'd have expected the geneseed of the two lost Legions to have been completely expunged from storage as well, given their comprehensive removal from Imperial records. However, it's entirely possible Cawl's got hold of some exceedingly rare examples through illicit means.

I think the ADB quote regarding the Word Bearers needs to be repeated ad nauseum until everyone knows not to just take the word of in-universe characters at face value (or, even more impersonal fluff).

I sincerely hope it's to allow people to explore the forgotten legions themselves with Primaris Marines, or incorporate them into their existing forgotten legion dudes. They've already got rid of a lot of the mystery around things with the expansion of the Heresy fluff and the godawful Newcrons. Start explaining too much and it makes the fictional universe feel small and mundane, rather than huge and full of potential.

From Index Astartes I

]According to their charter, each Chapter is obliged to send 5% of its genetic material to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars

Now I would assume that this 'charter' came about after the 2nd Founding to ensure that the existing and new chapters were free from any taint. I would also assume that this was not necessary and did not take place before the Heresy happened.

Also:

On Earth the Adeptus Terra created genetic repositories to produce and store Space Marine gene-seed.

The Gene-seed of the Traitor Legions was placed under a time locked stasis seal, although at the time many believed these dangerous gene stocks should be destroyed

Is Guilliman a bit shady? As before, this happened after the Heresy and during the Codex decree.

You do also raise a good point Ynneadwraith. I guess the same is true here, that they were locked away, to what purpose I am not sure. I would guess that it would have been at the Emperors command, so how would Guilliman had manage to get this to Cawl, pillage the gene labs on Terra?

Wouldn't using the Gene-seed of the Lost Legions mean that we now know about the Lost Legions? We would find out their traits and their characteristics. Another bit of mystery lost.

Melissia wrote:The missing legions are best left as a mystery. It's bad enough what GW's horus heresy novels did to the primarchs. Some mysteries should remain unsolved.

General Kroll wrote:Yeah, the missing Legions should remain a mystery just out of reach. I do like seeing teasy little mentions and clues here and there, but that's all it should ever be.

Please! The mystery and shrouded, confused and muddled past of the Imperium all adds to the background. Part of the reason I didn't follow the heresy beyond the initial books is I didn't like the demystification of the background. Though, I do love what Forgeworld is doing...

IllumiNini wrote:With the expunging of everything else, why would their Gene-Seed remain?

Contingency? By order of the emperor?


Finally, the fact that Cawl has traitor primaris gives people a lovely excuse to paint them up in the original legion colours to battle again in 40k - I'm sure Cawl didn't mean for a few to "escape" after all...

But would the Primaris of the Traitor Legions go Traitor this time. The new process of creating the Primaris marines is supposed to remove, for lack of a term, badness out of the Gene - seed and the process is different from the enhanced Zygote harvesting technique that was used during the Heresy, which supposedly was part of the cause that the Traitor Legions fell. Unless this is all mumbo jumbo and their corruption was entirely down to influence of the Chaos powers / warp. If it is the later then I suppose that any Pimaris made from Traitor gene-seed, using Thousand Sons for example, would still be under the thrall of Tzeentch. But then Blood Ravens "possibly" and if they are from the Thousand Sons, they haven't fell, so then we are back to Primaris not being traitors.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But would the Primaris of the Traitor Legions go Traitor this time. The new process of creating the Primaris marines is supposed to remove, for lack of a term, badness out of the Gene - seed and the process is different from the enhanced Zygote harvesting technique that was used during the Heresy, which supposedly was part of the cause that the Traitor Legions fell. Unless this is all mumbo jumbo and their corruption was entirely down to influence of the Chaos powers / warp. If it is the later then I suppose that any Pimaris made from Traitor gene-seed, using Thousand Sons for example, would still be under the thrall of Tzeentch. But then Blood Ravens "possibly" and if they are from the Thousand Sons, they haven't fell, so then we are back to Primaris not being traitors.

And what of those loyalists in traitor legions? And the traitors in loyalist legions? I doubt it'll be down to a genetic flaw that will see them turn traitor. And those "traitor" remnants who remained loyal and are fan rumoured to go on to found chapters despite being descended from traitor stock (Death Eagles, Silver Skulls, Red Scorpions, Blood Ravens, etc).

 zedmeister wrote:

Melissia wrote:The missing legions are best left as a mystery. It's bad enough what GW's horus heresy novels did to the primarchs. Some mysteries should remain unsolved.

General Kroll wrote:Yeah, the missing Legions should remain a mystery just out of reach. I do like seeing teasy little mentions and clues here and there, but that's all it should ever be.

Please! The mystery and shrouded, confused and muddled past of the Imperium all adds to the background. Part of the reason I didn't follow the heresy beyond the initial books is I didn't like the demystification of the background. Though, I do love what Forgeworld is doing...

Absolutely. I think it comes from a fundamental misunderstanding about how to create something a world/universe that feels big. Not that GW are specifically bad at that, actually they're pretty good, but it's a good philosophy to stick to.

Just jam-packing a universe full of stuff isn't enough. It's a great start, but it's not the whole story. To make a reader feel like they are lost within an unimaginably huge universe, rather than an omnipresent surveyor, you have to make it blindingly obvious that what we do know (no matter how detailed) has only just scratched the surface of what's out there. That's how you make a universe feel as deep and unfathomable as an ocean, rather than a little pond where you can see everything that's going on all at once.

It's similar to the philosophy I have about what makes something feel epic, and what a lot of people think makes something feel epic. I bet the idea of Kaldor Draigo, dossing around in the warp kicking arse and taking names sounded really epic when it was first thought of. In reality, it's the complete opposite. He just comes off as a Mary Sue tool that dosses around doing whatever he likes, never getting into any danger that can penetrate his immeasurably thick plot armour. Not epic.

Epic is the lone Guardsman standing defiant in the face of a Bloodthirster. Epic is the fact that in the great food-chain of the galaxy, humans are second from bottom (just above Grots), but despite this we triumph. Epic is the fact that despite the extensive biological augmentation and borderline archaeotech power armour, an Astartes is actually pretty weak compared to the true horrors the galaxy holds. There are about a billion different things in the galaxy that will eat an Astartes for breakfast. Epic is the fact that despite all of this, both humans and Astartes triumph not through high technology, or brute biology, but through sheer, human grit.

That's lost in a lot of fluff (especially Marine fluff), which is a real shame.

 zedmeister wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:With the expunging of everything else, why would their Gene-Seed remain?

Contingency? By order of the emperor?


Finally, the fact that Cawl has traitor primaris gives people a lovely excuse to paint them up in the original legion colours to battle again in 40k - I'm sure Cawl didn't mean for a few to "escape" after all...

The reason I think it's unlikely they just had this stuff locked away, even as a contingency, is the severity of what the forgotten legions must have done to be expunged from the records. To put it into perspective, the Traitor Legions instigated a wholesale civil war against the Imperium, murdered billions of humans and hundreds of thousands of their fellow Astartes, killed a number of Primarchs, and pledged themselves to lovecraftian entities beyond the understanding of mortal minds..

If the Traitor Legions did all that and weren't expunged from the records, just what on earth did the forgotten legions do?.

It must have been something so reprehensible that I doubt they'd have kept anything of them around that could possibly be used to resurrect their legacy. Which also adds some really nice shadiness to Cawl and Guilliman's little pet psychopath project

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But would the Primaris of the Traitor Legions go Traitor this time. The new process of creating the Primaris marines is supposed to remove, for lack of a term, badness out of the Gene - seed and the process is different from the enhanced Zygote harvesting technique that was used during the Heresy, which supposedly was part of the cause that the Traitor Legions fell. Unless this is all mumbo jumbo and their corruption was entirely down to influence of the Chaos powers / warp. If it is the later then I suppose that any Pimaris made from Traitor gene-seed, using Thousand Sons for example, would still be under the thrall of Tzeentch. But then Blood Ravens "possibly" and if they are from the Thousand Sons, they haven't fell, so then we are back to Primaris not being traitors.

I remember reading somewhere that the idea the Primaris are free of the flaws of their geneseed is probably bunk. Or, at least, it was only espoused by Cawl who is bound to claim his creations are pure and perfect (with no subsequent backing information).

Personally, if they do end up being free of geneseed flaws then I'd be mightily disappointed. They already feel Mary Sue enough as it is. Think about if someone came up with them as a homebrew idea. People would think whoever came up with them is a tosser. Marines, but stronger/faster/smarter, with special (better) gear made directly for them on Mars, made up of the geneseed of all 20 Legions, saved the Imperium from Chaos...oh, and they're free of any sort of geneseed corruption and more resistant to chaos. Utter, unadulterated Mary Sue beyond even Kaldor Draigo's lofty standards.

If they make them extra susceptible to Chaos, or geneseed flaws, or mental instability of some sort, then at least all the stuff they have that's better is outweighed by some pretty serious downsides and it starts to feel balanced again.

Oh, and on the subject of whether geneseed predisposes an Astartes to Traitorousness I'd say it probably has a significant effect. It's strongly implied that the Primarchs were created with power gifted/bargained for/stolen from the Chaos Gods. As the geneseed of an Astartes is grown from the genetic code of their Primarch, then that same chaotic influence is encoded throughout them. We also have evidence that geneseed subtly alters the mental state of an Astartes to bring them into line with the culture of their legion. Add all that together and I'm certain that Traitor geneseed (or geneseed of any sort) would make an Astartes more prone to corruption. Whether they actually do fall to Chaos is probably down to a thousand different factors including previous temperament, life experiences, and the actions of their peers. However, I'd say the chaos-born genetic code embedded in their bodies would have a significant influence on that.

 zedmeister wrote:

And what of those loyalists in traitor legions? And the traitors in loyalist legions? I doubt it'll be down to a genetic flaw that will see them turn traitor. And those "traitor" remnants who remained loyal and are fan rumoured to go on to found chapters despite being descended from traitor stock (Death Eagles, Silver Skulls, Red Scorpions, Blood Ravens, etc).

If the surviving loyalists from traitor legions did go on to form new chapters then I guess they are kinda covered, as they have proven to be loyal and I would guess that their gene-seed was stable, unlike their traitor brothers. So the CG weren't able to manipulate them the same way. And I guess that removing any bad stuff from the gene-seed would also prevent this as well. But it certainly can't all be blamed on gene-seed as space marines do act on their own sense of duty and morals, or lack of. But there are mentions that Gene-seed flaws are/were a part of it.

It's pretty complicated

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

If the Traitor Legions did all that and weren't expunged from the records, just what on earth did the forgotten legions do?.

It must have been something so reprehensible that I doubt they'd have kept anything of them around that could possibly be used to resurrect their legacy. Which also adds some really nice shadiness to Cawl and Guilliman's little pet psychopath project

Only the Emperor has word to create a Legion so maybe only the Emperor had the ability to remove the history of a Legion and him being interred in the Golden Throne with other more important things happening declaring the Excommunicate Traitoris was the best that the newly established High Lords could do? Maybe it was to do with keeping their names available so that they were recognised for all time. Imagine an Imperial World being attacked and the Emperors Children turn up. Hmm they seem to be Astartes but I don't recognise them, consult the Codex Astartes. Hmm there is no mention of them. They appear to be named the Emperors Children. That must be a good sign, we're saved!!

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:

And what of those loyalists in traitor legions? And the traitors in loyalist legions? I doubt it'll be down to a genetic flaw that will see them turn traitor. And those "traitor" remnants who remained loyal and are fan rumoured to go on to found chapters despite being descended from traitor stock (Death Eagles, Silver Skulls, Red Scorpions, Blood Ravens, etc).

If the surviving loyalists from traitor legions did go on to form new chapters then I guess they are kinda covered, as they have proven to be loyal and I would guess that their gene-seed was stable, unlike their traitor brothers. So the CG weren't able to manipulate them the same way. And I guess that removing any bad stuff from the gene-seed would also prevent this as well. But it certainly can't all be blamed on gene-seed as space marines do act on their own sense of duty and morals, or lack of. But there are mentions that Gene-seed flaws are/were a part of it.

It's pretty complicated

Yeah I'm of the opinion that it's complicated too. I've explained it a little more in my edit to my previous comment, but I'm of the opinion that any geneseed predisposes someone to chaos corruption, and the stability is simply relative. There are also dead-stable geneseeds that went Traitor, and unstable geneseeds that stayed loyal. As you say, it's complicated and down to a host of different factors.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

If the Traitor Legions did all that and weren't expunged from the records, just what on earth did the forgotten legions do?.

It must have been something so reprehensible that I doubt they'd have kept anything of them around that could possibly be used to resurrect their legacy. Which also adds some really nice shadiness to Cawl and Guilliman's little pet psychopath project

Only the Emperor has word to create a Legion so maybe only the Emperor had the ability to remove the history of a Legion and him being interred in the Golden Throne with other more important things happening declaring the Excommunicate Traitoris was the best that the newly established High Lords could do? Maybe it was to do with keeping their names available so that they were recognised for all time. Imagine an Imperial World being attacked and the Emperors Children turn up. Hmm they seem to be Astartes but I don't recognise them, consult the Codex Astartes. Hmm there is no mention of them. They appear to be named the Emperors Children. That must be a good sign, we're saved!!

True, although both Legions were expunged while the Emperor was still up and kicking. It just seems odd to me that they'd be so thorough in expunging their record that even the Primarchs aren't allowed to speak of them...and then stop short of getting rid of their geneseed. Unless you give the Emperor some extra human-like flaws and say that deep down, after all the ire and rage, he harboured a glimmer of hope that at some point his creations might be resurrected and redeemed. That would work, and I'm all for giving the Emperor human flaws (given that I don't believe all of this composite of souls since before Christ was born dogma).

As for recognising Marines, I quite like the idea that the majority of the Imperium hasn't the faintest clue how to recognise a Traitor Marine vessel from a Loyalist one, at least until they get close enough to be ripping your face off and wearing it as a mask. It'd give some really nice tension to unannounced encounters by Guard/Navy forces and Marines. Imagine being the captain of a Naval vessel who comes across a Marine ship on the fringes of a backwater system. How on earth do you tell whether they're on your side or not? You can hail them, and perhaps they'll respond. If they don't, are they just proud and aloof? If they do, can they be trusted? You could have codes, but what with the bureaucracy of the Imperium I doubt they'd be worth a damn. The only way to find out is to send a greeting envoy, which means getting within range of their guns...or worse.

Same thing when a Marine company makes planet-fall. All your average planetary governor would see is a group of giants clad in ceramite, and perhaps a vague memory of Imperial propaganda talking about the Holy Astartes Chapters of the God-Emperor of Mankind, saviours of the Imperium. Unless they've got tentacles coming out of the wazoo, or you've got an Inquisitor around, you haven't got the faintest idea how to identify where their loyalties lie. The only way you'd find out they're enemies is when the orbital bombardment begins and they're sacrificing your citizens to Gods you've only heard of in the Imperial Primer.

Even if you're an Astartes, there are a mind-bogglingly large number of chapters, many of whom you've probably never heard of. Unless they're one of the big names, you've got no idea who they are. It's not as if there's an easy to find list of all the chapters somewhere. The Imperium's data-dissemination mechanisms are literally medieval. Word of mouth from Astropaths and the personal experience of your chapter. That's it. Perhaps there is an Index Astartes (I seem to remember something of the sort), but what are the chances anyone has some sort of accurate copy? Perhaps the Ad Mech do, but I doubt that as well.

We know a lot about the Imperium. The Imperium itself hasn't the faintest idea what goes on beyond the immediate area.

Still, I do get your idea it's useful for at least some people to know about the Traitor Legions so they can recognise them. It's less useful to know about the forgotten ones as they're presumably all dead.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

True, although both Legions were expunged while the Emperor was still up and kicking. It just seems odd to me that they'd be so thorough in expunging their record that even the Primarchs aren't allowed to speak of them...and then stop short of getting rid of their geneseed. Unless you give the Emperor some extra human-like flaws and say that deep down, after all the ire and rage, he harboured a glimmer of hope that at some point his creations might be resurrected and redeemed. That would work, and I'm all for giving the Emperor human flaws (given that I don't believe all of this composite of souls since before Christ was born dogma).

That is a possibility I guess, but is the Emperor one to keep his failed experiments around?

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
As for recognising Marines, I quite like the idea that the majority of the Imperium hasn't the faintest clue how to recognise a Traitor Marine vessel from a Loyalist one, at least until they get close enough to be ripping your face off and wearing it as a mask. It'd give some really nice tension to unannounced encounters by Guard/Navy forces and Marines. Imagine being the captain of a Naval vessel who comes across a Marine ship on the fringes of a backwater system. How on earth do you tell whether they're on your side or not? You can hail them, and perhaps they'll respond. If they don't, are they just proud and aloof? If they do, can they be trusted? You could have codes, but what with the bureaucracy of the Imperium I doubt they'd be worth a damn. The only way to find out is to send a greeting envoy, which means getting within range of their guns...or worse.

Same thing when a Marine company makes planet-fall. All your average planetary governor would see is a group of giants clad in ceramite, and perhaps a vague memory of Imperial propaganda talking about the Holy Astartes Chapters of the God-Emperor of Mankind, saviours of the Imperium. Unless they've got tentacles coming out of the wazoo, or you've got an Inquisitor around, you haven't got the faintest idea how to identify where their loyalties lie. The only way you'd find out they're enemies is when the orbital bombardment begins and they're sacrificing your citizens to Gods you've only heard of in the Imperial Primer.

Even if you're an Astartes, there are a mind-bogglingly large number of chapters, many of whom you've probably never heard of. Unless they're one of the big names, you've got no idea who they are. It's not as if there's an easy to find list of all the chapters somewhere. The Imperium's data-dissemination mechanisms are literally medieval. Word of mouth from Astropaths and the personal experience of your chapter. That's it. Perhaps there is an Index Astartes (I seem to remember something of the sort), but what are the chances anyone has some sort of accurate copy? Perhaps the Ad Mech do, but I doubt that as well.

We know a lot about the Imperium. The Imperium itself hasn't the faintest idea what goes on beyond the immediate area.

Still, I do get your idea it's useful for at least some people to know about the Traitor Legions so they can recognise them. It's less useful to know about the forgotten ones as they're presumably all dead.

Oh yeah, I agree, I was just trying to add a bit of humour, and likely failing. There are likely to be Chapters that have never met or have no idea of some Chapter. Also not all of the records are complete of what Chapters actually exist.

Haha I did get that subtle though so I thought I'd clarify! Plus, it gave me an opportunity to waffle on about the general grimdarkness of the Imperium to make me feel better about the fact there are Primaris Marines at all

You're right on the Emperor's attitude towards his experiments. He already remorselessly wiped out the Thunder Warriors, and probably planned the same for the Primarchs and Astartes when his war was won. He's certainly not one for sentimentality towards his tools.

Perhaps Cawl managed to mine up some hint of their genetic structure from deep beneath Terra's surface, or hidden away on a world conquered by one of the lost legions and attributed to another. That's certainly more realistic (and interesting!) than 'oh, the Mechanicum just had some in a vault somewhere'.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But would the Primaris of the Traitor Legions go Traitor this time. The new process of creating the Primaris marines is supposed to remove, for lack of a term, badness out of the Gene - seed and the process is different from the enhanced Zygote harvesting technique that was used during the Heresy, which supposedly was part of the cause that the Traitor Legions fell. Unless this is all mumbo jumbo and their corruption was entirely down to influence of the Chaos powers / warp.

This is a good question and one the book also raises. Cawl asserts that the Traitor geneseed is not inherently predisposed to producing treacherous Marines. He insists that it was the Primarchs who fell and led their sons into damnation with them. Guilliman does not seem quite so sure.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

The reason I think it's unlikely they just had this stuff locked away, even as a contingency, is the severity of what the forgotten legions must have done to be expunged from the records. To put it into perspective, the Traitor Legions instigated a wholesale civil war against the Imperium, murdered billions of humans and hundreds of thousands of their fellow Astartes, killed a number of Primarchs, and pledged themselves to lovecraftian entities beyond the understanding of mortal minds..

If the Traitor Legions did all that and weren't expunged from the records, just what on earth did the forgotten legions do?.

It must have been something so reprehensible that I doubt they'd have kept anything of them around that could possibly be used to resurrect their legacy. Which also adds some really nice shadiness to Cawl and Guilliman's little pet psychopath project

The 2nd and 11th Legions were expunged during the Great Crusade when the Emperor was still around to decree such things. Also, it seems fairly certain that they were completely destroyed (apart from some geneseed samples which were preserved).

Part of the reason that the Traitor Legions were not totally expunged is that they still exist as a fighting force. Whilst knowledge of them is heavily proscribed, you don't want to delete it completely as high command need to know that not all the Space Marines running around out there are good guys. If you know the history and MO of the World Eaters, you will know to stand well back and bombard the heck out of them rather than letting them fight at close quarters if you can possibly avoid it.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But would the Primaris of the Traitor Legions go Traitor this time. The new process of creating the Primaris marines is supposed to remove, for lack of a term, badness out of the Gene - seed and the process is different from the enhanced Zygote harvesting technique that was used during the Heresy, which supposedly was part of the cause that the Traitor Legions fell. Unless this is all mumbo jumbo and their corruption was entirely down to influence of the Chaos powers / warp.

This is a good question and one the book also raises. Cawl asserts that the Traitor geneseed is not inherently predisposed to producing treacherous Marines. He insists that it was the Primarchs who fell and led their sons into damnation with them. Guilliman does not seem quite so sure.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

The reason I think it's unlikely they just had this stuff locked away, even as a contingency, is the severity of what the forgotten legions must have done to be expunged from the records. To put it into perspective, the Traitor Legions instigated a wholesale civil war against the Imperium, murdered billions of humans and hundreds of thousands of their fellow Astartes, killed a number of Primarchs, and pledged themselves to lovecraftian entities beyond the understanding of mortal minds..

If the Traitor Legions did all that and weren't expunged from the records, just what on earth did the forgotten legions do?.

It must have been something so reprehensible that I doubt they'd have kept anything of them around that could possibly be used to resurrect their legacy. Which also adds some really nice shadiness to Cawl and Guilliman's little pet psychopath project

The 2nd and 11th Legions were expunged during the Great Crusade when the Emperor was still around to decree such things. Also, it seems fairly certain that they were completely destroyed (apart from some geneseed samples which were preserved).

Part of the reason that the Traitor Legions were not totally expunged is that they still exist as a fighting force. Whilst knowledge of them is heavily proscribed, you don't want to delete it completely as high command need to know that not all the Space Marines running around out there are good guys. If you know the history and MO of the World Eaters, you will know to stand well back and bombard the heck out of them rather than letting them fight at close quarters if you can possibly avoid it.

True on all counts. The only thing I'd amend is 'they were completely destroyed (apart from some geneseed samples which were preserved)'. That implies that someone in the Imperium made a point of preserving them, which I just can't see happening given how thoroughly they were expunged from every single other record. If it's written somewhere that they were still in the vaults then fair enough, but if it's left up to us we can come up with more plausible scenarios.

My favourite so far is that he was somehow able to track down relics of the forgotten legions, stranded on backwater planets they conquered and missed by the Imperial purge. Something like the corpse of a battle-brother still entombed within a barely functional dreadnaught sarcophagus, just enough to preserve his geneseed, or a ruined Narcotheum containing shreds of genetic material salvaged during the Apothecary's final battle. He'd have had to dig deep into the history of the Imeprium, and start asking questions a lot of very powerful people wouldn't want him to ask. Soooo much more interesting than just 'he went to a secret vault he always had and unlocked it'.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

My favourite so far is that he was somehow able to track down relics of the forgotten legions, stranded on backwater planets they conquered and missed by the Imperial purge. Something like the corpse of a battle-brother still entombed within a barely functional dreadnaught sarcophagus, just enough to preserve his geneseed, or a ruined Narcotheum containing shreds of genetic material salvaged during the Apothecary's final battle. He'd have had to dig deep into the history of the Imeprium, and start asking questions a lot of very powerful people wouldn't want him to ask. Soooo much more interesting than just 'he went to a secret vault he always had and unlocked it'.

But that's worse than pillaging vaults, Guilliman basically would have said that it is ok to raid tombs to do so . I think it's a bit of a doozy really to have all 20 sets of gene - seed. If it would have been 9 it would have been fine. The Traitor Legions in my opinion are too much of a risk to recreate regardless of Cawls protestations and like Ynneadwraith says, the Lost legions must have done something pretty dastardly to be expunged. Why take the risk. The loyalist legions have enough of their own gene-seed flaws for Cawl to work with the make stable and enough of those have gone traitor.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

My favourite so far is that he was somehow able to track down relics of the forgotten legions, stranded on backwater planets they conquered and missed by the Imperial purge. Something like the corpse of a battle-brother still entombed within a barely functional dreadnaught sarcophagus, just enough to preserve his geneseed, or a ruined Narcotheum containing shreds of genetic material salvaged during the Apothecary's final battle. He'd have had to dig deep into the history of the Imeprium, and start asking questions a lot of very powerful people wouldn't want him to ask. Soooo much more interesting than just 'he went to a secret vault he always had and unlocked it'.

But that's worse than pillaging vaults, Guilliman basically would have said that it is ok to raid tombs to do so . I think it's a bit of a doozy really to have all 20 sets of gene - seed. If it would have been 9 it would have been fine. The Traitor Legions in my opinion are too much of a risk to recreate regardless of Cawls protestations and like Ynneadwraith says, the Lost legions must have done something pretty dastardly to be expunged. Why take the risk. The loyalist legions have enough of their own gene-seed flaws for Cawl to work with the make stable and enough of those have gone traitor.

My take on that is that Cawl is a radical. Here's how I'm imagining the revelation to go:

Cawl: Here is your army, Lord of the Imperium
Guilliman: Cor blimey, just in the nick of time what with all the gak that's going down. Lets get them fighting!

...some time later...

Guilliman: Hey Cawl, how did you say you'd made these again?
Cawl: From Primarch geneseed, just like the Astartes
Guilliman:...which Primarchs? One of my Primaris dudes has just ripped off another one's head in blind rage and painted his blood all over his containment cell
Cawl: All 20. but my methods have been proven in the laboratory to remove the negative aspects of flawed geneseed
Guilliman: What, so Traitor Primarchs too?
Cawl: Yes, but as I have previously stated my methods render their negative aspects inert in laboratory conditions

...Guilliman mulls this over...then a second later spits out his tea

Guilliman: ALL 20?!
Cawl: Yes. That is what I said.
Guilliman: WHAT?! HOW?! They were expunged. Eradicated. Purged from all record by decree of the God-Emperor of Mankind. Where did you even get that information from? Call them back. They must be euthanised.
Cawl: I'm sorry, I do not have the information required to comply with that request. You knew what you signed up to. It is too late to have cold feet now.
Guilliman: gak. This is not going to end well...

 Melissia wrote:
The missing legions are best left as a mystery. It's bad enough what GW's horus heresy novels did to the primarchs. Some mysteries should remain unsolved.

The fluff has changed a lot in this way. Sometimes it is cool to have answers to your questions, and sometimes it is a bit let down.

To be honest, I think that there was a bit of a battle going on between the game fluff writers and the black library authors back in the 3rd and 4th editions- with the non-fiction fluff writers wanting to keep more things mysterious and the Black Library authors wanting to explain all of the mysteries.

The Movie Marines were a response to people asking for Marines in the game to play more like the Black Library fiction. The article says that the Black Library should not be taken as cannon- that it is more like imperial propaganda in which imperial heroes are presented as over the top action movie heroes, and that actual marine power level is more accurately portrayed in the 40k game rules.

It is also the first time that White Dwarf mentioned Space Marines being particularly larger than humans (and sets their height at 7 foot- presented as an exaggeration like everything else in the article).

Someday, GW *will* 'tell all' about the 2nd and 11th.

And not only that, but odds are pretty good that they'll show back up, somehow, in 'modern' 40K as well - I can (almost) guarantee you that this will happen!

Yep. And it will be a sad day, because nothing GW does will be as creative as what the players are capable of doing.

 odinsgrandson wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
The missing legions are best left as a mystery. It's bad enough what GW's horus heresy novels did to the primarchs. Some mysteries should remain unsolved.

The fluff has changed a lot in this way. Sometimes it is cool to have answers to your questions, and sometimes it is a bit let down.

To be honest, I think that there was a bit of a battle going on between the game fluff writers and the black library authors back in the 3rd and 4th editions- with the non-fiction fluff writers wanting to keep more things mysterious and the Black Library authors wanting to explain all of the mysteries.

The Movie Marines were a response to people asking for Marines in the game to play more like the Black Library fiction. The article says that the Black Library should not be taken as cannon- that it is more like imperial propaganda in which imperial heroes are presented as over the top action movie heroes, and that actual marine power level is more accurately portrayed in the 40k game rules.

It is also the first time that White Dwarf mentioned Space Marines being particularly larger than humans (and sets their height at 7 foot- presented as an exaggeration like everything else in the article).

Agreed, although personally I do quite like that Marines are 7ft tall murder machines. The point being that you have to put a human through decades long training, pump them full of steroids, fill them with arcane genetically modified extra organs and clad them in power armour for them to even stand a chance against the horrors the universe has to throw against them. All of that, and they still die like a T4 3+ dude on the tabletop. It helps make the threat humanity is facing feel truly terrifying if only the Black Library authors of so much Marine fanfiction had played on that.

 Melissia wrote:
Yep. And it will be a sad day, because nothing GW does will be as creative as what the players are capable of doing.

Absolutely. Not necessarily because their individual idea will be less creative, as they've come up with some truly beautiful stuff over the years, but simply because they have to pick one idea.

Rather than a thousand different creative possibilities, they have to nail it down to one of them. No matter how creative it is, it can't compare.

To be fair, in raw game terms, there's absolutely no reason to invest the years and expenses in creating a space marine when you could train legions of imperial guarsmen with the same resources. I mean- the marine is only going to survive one extra turn when he hits the battlefield.

40k fluff doesn't quite deal with the economics of what they're doing- and they often run into the "giant robot problem" (we can make an awesome looking fighting machine- but with that same technology we can make something more efficient and powerful if we don't worry about how cool it looks/sounds).

There's always the question of how literally "There is Only War" is meant. I mean, so there's no agriculture, commodities trading or economy?

 Melissia wrote:
Yep. And it will be a sad day, because nothing GW does will be as creative as what the players are capable of doing.

I don't necessarily agree that the best stories are the ones left untold. Honestly, most of the times I've seen gamers come up with their own answers, they end up being super cheesy- all about the overpowered special snowflakes (but that's not necessarily different from GW's answers...)

But there's definitely been a design philosophy of keeping things unanswered that is going away- at least for people who read the Black Library.




By the way- those two chapters were originally left blank without any reason given- the records were expunged, and no one know what became of the chapters or their primarchs.

For a while, they were presumed to be traitors that were so bad that we don't even know about them, but that doesn't exactly line up with the traitors we know about.

Personally, I think it was a clerical error, and there are two Legions of space marines out there that have spent ten thousand years on hold with tech support.

"I'm sorry, but your homeworld isn't on our records, the Xenos invasion you're talking about isn't either. Have you tried unplugging it and plugging it back in?"

Here's an interesting nugget. If it's verbatim, the fact that Guilliman calls them 'Failed Legions' is interesting. Perhaps the reason they were purged is because they failed at their intended purpose somehow, or succeeded so well that they failed to fit into the Emperor's vision for humanity.

Is it just Guilliman who views them as failed, or was it common understanding between the Primarchs? If they were purged because they 'failed' somehow, what sort of pressure were the other Primarchs under to succeed?

That's the sort of information reveal I want. Really minimal, but swimming with possibilities.

 IllumiNini wrote:


The Lost and The Forgotten, it also opens up people to do projects like "The Lightning Bearers" (seriously - Google it).

I just spend the last hours reading about The Lightning Bearers.
Truly impressive !

I look forward to the 2nd and the 11th not only being revealed and explained, but also coming back and doing...whatever it is that they'll end up doing.

Anyway, you can already see how GW is going to have the 'Some of the Primaris go nuts' and 'fully half' will turn to Chaos or go renegade option queued up.

That nitwit Cawl - messing around with stuff he shouldn't have!

the reasoning behind what they did with Cawl is simple eneugh, and it's why I don't expect we'll see anything more come of it. it's not any grand plot I suspect but is rather GW covering their bases. they've always left things vague to allow for chapters descened from the 2 lost legions, and traitor legions, while OFFICALLY none exist, we all know it's possiable so always wonder about the chapters with the mysterious orgins etc. by throwing this in GW keeps those possiabilities open.


Let's use an example, the Blood Ravens, weather or not it's true, it's WIDELY suspected they're descended from the 1k sons. now let's say it was eistablished that ONLY the 9 loyalist legions where aid to have Primaris Marines, no opening for discussion, that was the facts. well obviously blood ravens would be unable to use them(which would confirm something was up) or they'd have em and that'd confirm they're not what we've always suspected/hoped.

this bit about Cawl having the other 11 legions geneseed ready, (and Gulliman's suspicion he's already used it) is to cover those bases.

The missing legions need to remain missing. Every good story needs to have unresolved mysteries. Dropping a vague hint every now ant then is much better than ever fully revealing it. It keeps people excited. If you reveal the truth, it will become mundane and no longer exciting, plus it may be disappointing to many.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

My favourite so far is that he was somehow able to track down relics of the forgotten legions, stranded on backwater planets they conquered and missed by the Imperial purge. Something like the corpse of a battle-brother still entombed within a barely functional dreadnaught sarcophagus, just enough to preserve his geneseed, or a ruined Narcotheum containing shreds of genetic material salvaged during the Apothecary's final battle. He'd have had to dig deep into the history of the Imeprium, and start asking questions a lot of very powerful people wouldn't want him to ask. Soooo much more interesting than just 'he went to a secret vault he always had and unlocked it'.

But that's worse than pillaging vaults, Guilliman basically would have said that it is ok to raid tombs to do so . I think it's a bit of a doozy really to have all 20 sets of gene - seed. If it would have been 9 it would have been fine. The Traitor Legions in my opinion are too much of a risk to recreate regardless of Cawls protestations and like Ynneadwraith says, the Lost legions must have done something pretty dastardly to be expunged. Why take the risk. The loyalist legions have enough of their own gene-seed flaws for Cawl to work with the make stable and enough of those have gone traitor.

One would have been fine- UM, Dark Angels, Luna Wolves, any of the stable geneseeds would have been fine. Alternatively picking unstable geneseed may have been needed for the experimentations or changes to take.