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So that time of year is upon us again in Northern Ireland. I went to bed early last night so I have no idea how the bonfires went. Hopefully no houses were burnt down like last year. Now it's time for the parades. I'm a Catholic so naturally I keep an arms distance away from both of them. Will they go off without a hitch? Here's hoping, if only for the sake of keeping the costs down.

Wait what?

As an amateur military historian, and obviously a wargamer, I do find July 12th to be fascinating from the perspective of studying the Battle of the Boyne, Jacobites, James II, and collecting and painting the miniatures for the table top battle etc etc

But, as you say from a social and individual viewpoint, I can only imagine it's a tough time for Northern Ireland's Catholics, so I hope there's been no trouble there.

 Frazzled wrote:
Wait what?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth

 Frazzled wrote:
Wait what?

12th of July celebrates the victory of William III over King James II at the battle of the Boyne.

If you know your English/British history Frazz, then you'll know that parliament and William of Orange overthrew James II during the glorious revolution. James fled to Ireland, rallied his supporters, and there were battles. William won the campaign. William of Orange was a Protestant, James was a Catholic, and Parliament didn't want a Catholic on the British throne.

As a side note, the English bill of rights, 1689 came out of this, and was the inspiration for your 2nd amendment. So yeah, you Texans owe these vents a historic debt

To further complicate matters, William Of Orange was backed by Pope Alexander VIII as part of a grand alliance against King Louis XIV of France. The enemy of my enemy is my friend...

beast_gts wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Wait what?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth

Thanks. To a Texan it looks like two sides using a battle from centuries ago to pick a fight. How about everyone take a day off from being a dick instead. I have a solution, instead of being a dick, investigate something called "fajitas" and something called "mescal." If anything can make even the Irish too drunk to fight, this is it.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
To further complicate matters, William Of Orange was backed by Pope Alexander VIII as part of a grand alliance against King Louis XIV of France. The enemy of my enemy is my friend...

Yeah, some of those Popes were always cunning politicians and masters of Machiavellian style intrigue.

We should really start a thread on who's your favourite Pope.

My personal favourite is Sixtus V. he encouraged Spain to launch the Spanish Armada against England, gave the Spanish a ton of money to fund it, and when it went horribly wrong, claimed never to have heard of England

They don't make 'em like they used to

As a catholic I'll be hiding in my house hoping I don't s have to see any of the buses coming back. On last nights bonfires apparently there was a 21 percent increase in call outs to bonfire related events and some crews were attacked but only after they'd saved the party goers houses.
The 12th and the whole marching season in general is an embarrassment for this country, the level of support and funding that these sectarian and racist displays get is madness.

 Frazzled wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Wait what?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth

Thanks. To a Texan it looks like two sides using a battle from centuries ago to pick a fight. How about everyone take a day off from being a dick instead. I have a solution, instead of being a dick, investigate something called "fajitas" and something called "mescal." If anything can make even the Irish too drunk to fight, this is it.

I wouldn't really say using it as an excuse as just about the entirety of the nationalist community would love to see these marches end, people are forced to stay in their homes for there own safety as well as costing the government millions to police and clean up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumcree_conflict

Drumcree really summed up the attitudes of a lot of those involved with these marches.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
As an amateur military historian, and obviously a wargamer, I do find July 12th to be fascinating from the perspective of studying the Battle of the Boyne, Jacobites, James II, and collecting and painting the miniatures for the table top battle etc etc

But, as you say from a social and individual viewpoint, I can only imagine it's a tough time for Northern Ireland's Catholics, so I hope there's been no trouble there.

Great laugh for those of us in the West of Scotland, too. This is the first time in five years I've been in Glasgow for the 12th so it's a lovely refresher. That said usually I'm flying out of Glasgow airport on the 11th so at least I miss the sea of clowns in Rangers strips headed to Belfast at the airport.

Well as an American I have a solution. It involves B-52s. Do you have access to B-52s?


Alternatively, get your gaelic on. Everyone dress up in kilts, and get sticks with nerf padding on them and wack each other with them vis re-enacting the Battle of Braveheart. Afterwards drink Irish Whiskey. Sure none of that relates to Ireland, but hey you don't have to eat haggis.

Also, alternatively, purple sashes and green sashes equaling the number of people involved in a barrel. Everyone draws a sash. Purple sash follow purple leader. Green sash follows green leader. Punch each other until purple or green wins. Again, drink Irish Whiskey and punch each other some more.

Never underestimate the thoroughly European ability to pick a fight over something that happened hundreds upon hundreds of years ago.

Of course, much of the nonsense now seems less down to genuine political dissidence (that's a subject I don't know enough about to comment on further), and more organised crime masquerading as a political cause.

How bad is the smoke and so forth ?

Heard some terrible tales/dreadful pictures.

Gets everywhere.

Everyone needs to remember, WWGD? (What Would Godzilla Do?)

 reds8n wrote:
How bad is the smoke and so forth ?

Heard some terrible tales/dreadful pictures.

Gets everywhere.

It's bad. Where I am the smell of burning rubber lingers for days afterwards over the whole city. You only have to look at them to see why. And they love to build them big:



That one is not from this year but it is typical of the big centerpiece ones.

 Frazzled wrote:
Everyone dress up in kilts, and get sticks with nerf padding on them and wack each other with them vis re-enacting the Battle of Braveheart. Afterwards drink Irish Whiskey. Sure none of that relates to Ireland, but hey you don't have to eat haggis.

But haggis is awesome and Irish whiskey is garbage.

Wait...people actually let that giant multistory pallet tower on fire...like, in town and near houses and stuff?

Like...that's not a massive and immediately dangerous fire and collapse hazard?

 Frazzled wrote:


Also, alternatively, purple sashes and green sashes equaling the number of people involved in a barrel. Everyone draws a sash. Purple sash follow purple leader. Green sash follows green leader. Punch each other until purple or green wins. Again, drink Irish Whiskey and punch each other some more.

It's all fun and games until an irate Russian woman shows up...

nfe wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Everyone dress up in kilts, and get sticks with nerf padding on them and wack each other with them vis re-enacting the Battle of Braveheart. Afterwards drink Irish Whiskey. Sure none of that relates to Ireland, but hey you don't have to eat haggis.

But haggis is awesome and Irish whiskey is garbage.

Dem's fighting words. I demand satisfaction. GW whippy sticks at dawn. Loser (which will of course be you because I cheat, Dear Dog how I cheat) must buy the winner a bottle of good Smokey mountain moonshine.

..One cannot quite work out why they're allowed to burn tyres....

you wouldn't normally.


https://twitter.com/MacSiacais/status/883229647772798976

Carrick DUP cllr Billy Ashe says bonfire is big but he is unaware of any concerns about it. I kid you not.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Wait...people actually let that giant multistory pallet tower on fire...like, in town and near houses and stuff?

Like...that's not a massive and immediately dangerous fire and collapse hazard?

Yes somehow they are allowed to get away with this year after year. Last year 3 houses were burnt down due to one and this year one was built right beside a petrol station and every year countless properties are damaged by them.

Normally they are covered in religious statues and Irish flags too to be burned as well as some pretty disgusting racist banners.

Welcome to the North folks!

A few weeks back, there were a few Northern Ireland dakka members expressing dismay and concern about people from the rest of the UK for not caring that much for Northern Ireland politics.

It's a fair point, and although I disagreed with them, I respected their right to make the point.

None the less, and after going through news reports and viewing images about the 12th, it only reinforces my belief that Northern Ireland politics should be kept well away from the rest of the UK and for good reasons which I won't go into here. Let's just say I couldn't make my views known without using a lot of swear words.

No offence intended to dakka members from Northern Ireland.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
A few weeks back, there were a few Northern Ireland dakka members expressing dismay and concern about people from the rest of the UK for not caring that much for Northern Ireland politics.

It's a fair point, and although I disagreed with them, I respected their right to make the point.

None the less, and after going through news reports and viewing images about the 12th, it only reinforces my belief that Northern Ireland politics should be kept well away from the rest of the UK and for good reasons which I won't go into here. Let's just say I couldn't make my views known without using a lot of swear words.

No offence intended to dakka members from Northern Ireland.

So your position is that ignorance is bliss, and the UK will be better for avoiding contact with the terrifying savage lunatics across the Irish Sea

(I kid, I kid. I'd be very surprised if that was your actual view. And you're showing commendable restraint)

Remember, Northern Ireland is not what the rest of the UK considers "normal". But give us our due, when we burn stuff, we REALLY burn stuff.

Pfft, thats a common campfire. For a real bonfire you have to go to Aggieville. People die building our bonfires.

Yes, that happens quite often. Collapse, typically.

 Graphite wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
A few weeks back, there were a few Northern Ireland dakka members expressing dismay and concern about people from the rest of the UK for not caring that much for Northern Ireland politics.

It's a fair point, and although I disagreed with them, I respected their right to make the point.

None the less, and after going through news reports and viewing images about the 12th, it only reinforces my belief that Northern Ireland politics should be kept well away from the rest of the UK and for good reasons which I won't go into here. Let's just say I couldn't make my views known without using a lot of swear words.

No offence intended to dakka members from Northern Ireland.

So your position is that ignorance is bliss, and the UK will be better for avoiding contact with the terrifying savage lunatics across the Irish Sea

(I kid, I kid. I'd be very surprised if that was your actual view. And you're showing commendable restraint)

Remember, Northern Ireland is not what the rest of the UK considers "normal". But give us our due, when we burn stuff, we REALLY burn stuff.

As I've said before, the problem is not your average Northern Irishman or woman (who are a great bunch) or Northern Ireland itself (which is a beautiful country)

I grew up during the 1980s with bombs going of in Britain and people like Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams on the news most weeks.

So you can forgive me for not wanting to touch Northern Irish politics with a barge pole, and wanting it kept away from mainland UK politics.

Wow I had heard a little about this years ago and didn't learn too much about it. I read the links provided in the earlier posts, and all I can say is wow. What a bunch of a-holes.

Its one thing if you actually participated in the Battle of the Boyne, and were marching in celebration of your effort, but none of these fools were around at the time. This is simply a way for one group to antagonize another.

It blows my mind the authorities allow the marches down certain areas. If they want to mass and march around, they should do it in their own areas.

Its sad since they are all Irish and are being occupied by the British. Somehow they have seemed to have forgotten that.

KTG17 wrote:
Wow I had heard a little about this years ago and didn't learn too much about it. I read the links provided in the earlier posts, and all I can say is wow. What a bunch of a-holes.

Its one thing if you actually participated in the Battle of the Boyne, and were marching in celebration of your effort, but none of these fools were around at the time. This is simply a way for one group to antagonize another.

It blows my mind the authorities allow the marches down certain areas. If they want to mass and march around, they should do it in their own areas.

Its sad since they are all Irish and are being occupied by the British. Somehow they have seemed to have forgotten that.

I know you're not out to cause offence, and you probably mean well, but Northern Ireland is not occupied by the British. But then again, it depends on who you're asking.

In very general terms of Irish history, the north, Ulster, is mainly Protestant, and wants to be part of Britain. The south, i.e the Republic of Ireland, is an independent sovereign nation, is mostly Catholic, and has been since the 1920s, due to the Irish war of independence. Following that war, Ulster choose to remain with the UK.

Over the centuries, as you can imagine, problems in Ireland were due to the Protestant Vs. Catholic religious wars, and things like colonization or settlers moving in. Again, it depends on what side you're on.

But never, ever, fall into the trap of thinking there are no grey areas here. Wolfe Tone was a Protestant Irishman, and he fought for a united Ireland.

Gladstone, the British Prime minister, tried and tried to get Home Rule for Ireland.

Had it not been for the outbreak of world war 1, there would probably have been another civil war in Britain over Irish Home Rule.

The Black and Tans in Ireland, which was a dark chapter, were mainly drawn from Scotland...

Never fall into the trap of thinking that it's 'evil' English people causing all of Ireland's problems.

I've known Irish people who consider themselves British, and I've known Irish people from the Republic who have no interest in unification with the North.

It's a very complicated and fascinating piece of history, and I'd urge people to look into it.

Yeah I was kind of simplifying things, and my knowledge on things are limited, but the British did occupy at one point, and its not a complete Irish nation on that island, so whatever compromise that was done split the island means the British still had their hands on some things, when they shouldnt have been there at all. Thats what I meant.

I imagine its complicated, and will read up on it. I remember when Bill Clinton went there, and back in the day there would be fundraiser parties in Boston for the NRA. I guess its a surprise to me since being in the US I don't see this side of any irish I meet here, who seem to love the USA and don't bring their baggage here (at least none that I am aware). If they can get along here, I imagine it could be the same there if they would abandon some of these dumb traditions.

It probably comes down to, "My granddad did it! My Dad did it! I'm doing it! And my kid will do it!" Without really understand the problems its causing.

KTG17 wrote:
Yeah I was kind of simplifying things, and my knowledge on things are limited, but the British did occupy at one point, and its not a complete Irish nation on that island, so whatever compromise that was done split the island means the British still had their hands on some things, when they shouldnt have been there at all. Thats what I meant.

I imagine its complicated, and will read up on it. I remember when Bill Clinton went there, and back in the day there would be fundraiser parties in Boston for the NRA. I guess its a surprise to me since being in the US I don't see this side of any irish I meet here, who seem to love the USA and don't bring their baggage here (at least none that I am aware). If they can get along here, I imagine it could be the same there if they would abandon some of these dumb traditions.

It probably comes down to, "My granddad did it! My Dad did it! I'm doing it! And my kid will do it!" Without really understand the problems its causing.

It's kinda like the American Revolution. The rebels, or the patriots, would consider themselves to be on the right side and would regard the Loyalists as traitors and non-Americans.

The Loyalists would regard themselves as Americans as well, but obviously wanted to remain loyal to the crown.

When each side considers themselves 'right' and unwilling to move an inch on it, then as you can probably guess, that's when trouble happens.

In Ireland, all those people are obviously Irish and speak with Irish accents, and it's highly likely that their families have been there for hundreds of years. This applies to both sides. Both sides will be proud of their Irish heritage and consider themselves proud Irishmen and women.

The dividing line is religion and politics. Like the American civil war.

The dividing line is religion and politics. Like the American civil war.

The dividing line was economic in the ACW. It was all about an industrializing north that used cheap labor, vs. an agrarian south that used even cheaper labor and didn't want to give that up.

but to your point, whats the politics difference here? This is not a criticism but a question (again I am in Texas and have almost no clue as it does not involve Mexico, oil, cattle, or the greatness thats is Texas, particularly Texas women). I see religion, but don't understand that. I mean within five miles of my house I have a Catholic church, Episcopal church, two Baptist type churches, a mosque (beautiful by the way), two gun ranges and two barbecue joints (the most powerful Texas religion).