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Before we begin, please refrain from "WKs are garbage, just don't take them" comments. That is not the point of this thread and you will be adding nothing.

The point of this thread is to discuss which WK is the most worth taking, assuming you are 100% going to take one (which I'd like to)
I just got a look at the Skathach WK too, so I am interesting in comparing it to the others.

My personal opinion is that the Sword/Shield WK isn't all that needed since the basic WK has Fists or Feet that do pretty decent damage themselves, so you really miss out on not having a main gun. I also think the Suncannon, while versatile, is just too expensive and could be unreliable
So for me, the Wraithcannon WK seems to be the best choice on paper, although it's downside is not having a 5++. Thankfully that only really matters against AP -3 or better weapons, and it still gets a 6+ against AP -3. Fortune is also a possiblity

The WC WK just fill several roles that Eldar seem to be lacking - Long range anti-vehicle AND effective melee AND a fire magnet.
But they are a big target that will draw all the enemy heavy weapons on turn 1. Which brings me to the Skathach
Is the extra 130+ points worth it to be able to leave the WK off the board, then drop in turn 1 in hopes to drop a few units while being unharmed?
Is a Inferno lance (Heavy D6 Multi-melta) as effective as the Heavy Wraithcannon? I think the potential is greater for the Inferno lance, but so is the potential to roll low on the # of shots

I feel like there is a ton more to discuss, but that's a start for now. I own 1 WK and want to field it in the best version I can
Help my Dakka-wan Kenobi, you're my only hope.

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It represents such a large chunk of the army it needs to meet a role you are not filling.

generally given the codex I think you are correct that wraith cannons are the way to go. also given the platform durability the shoulder star cannons are very worth the points. that makes Wk the melee and anti tank powerhouse and lets the rest of your army throw out mid str anti infantry and a few small dedicated assault teams. (or harlequin allies)

if you have dark elder and lances abound then it is a probably worth it to go heavy melee sword and board.

overall though I forsee leaving my wk out of anything competitive but still se taking 1 for narrative and open play games. gives a bgi scary to soak damage and for the opponent to enjoy weakening and taking out.

The inferno lances are significantly better than the heavy wraithcannons against basically everything, especially because the Skathach can arrive inside melta range. The Skathach also has about a 50% chance of charging on turn 1, assuming you're willing to use a CP.

Against T7, the inferno lances at 12" are more than twice as good as the wraithcannons. Against T8, they're still almost 70% better.

The variable number of shots is arguably an advantage on such a powerful gun. If you roll only 1 shot, you can use a CP to re-roll it, boosting the average number of shots by 12% and increasing your expected damage on that specific volley by 3.75 if the target isn't getting a save.

So it's considerably more expensive, but the question is whether you want to make a relatively fragile model even more appealing as a target. Even the WC WK is paying over 20 points per wound. The Skathach pays over 26 ppw. And that's without any heavy weapons. I think it might make sense if the rest of your army is also trying to get right up in the enemy's face very quickly and if your opponents are bringing vehicles that need killing ASAP and also don't have much deep strike denial. Although you can of course just deploy it normally if you can't deep strike within 24" of the things you want to shoot. I do find it overall more appealing than the WC WK just because the WC variant doesn't really bring anything unique to the table other than its feet.

This may be edging into "WKs are garbage, just don't take them", but I think you also have to consider that for 22 more points than a base Skathach you can get a Scorpion, which will have a 5++ for most of its life and a nearly-identical gun except that it wounds everything on a 3+ and has 60" range, although it can't split fire. It's not a CC threat but the Skathach isn't a very efficient one itself.

The role where it's painted nice and sits on the shelf.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The role where it's painted nice and sits on the shelf.

You don't know how to read very well do you? I specifically asked to avoid posting these kinds of comments. Thanks for adding nothing

Anyway, I still think that being able to drop in on turn 1 into metla range could be very useful and a great distraction to keep the rest of my army alive

I have used the WC WK and he has been doing great.

With guide usually casted on him, and sometimes fortune, he usually soaks a lot of damage, and can deal damage.

Maybe he wont make back his points every game, but that is not always bad. If he has killed 300-400 points and soaked a ton of fire power I'm happy with it.

the Inferno lances one is probably going to do more damage, but he is way more expensive but it will also die. At that point I would rather go for the scorpio who can delete both infantry units or tanks thanks to his number of shots, and if he gets an IK or other super heavy around, he is also going to do a lot of damage

Is there anything that prevents you from having no units on the table in a turn? Like in 7E you would auto-lose if you didn't have a unit on the table even if you have units in Reserves, does that exist in 8E? (sadly don't have my book yet still)
I know you have to deploy at least half your units, but what if you have units that can leave the table later?

If you can do this, how dumb would this list be:
____Super Heavy Detachment_____+3CP
Skathach WraithKnight w/ Death Shroud/Shield & 2 Scatter lasers
Skathach WraithKnight w/ Death Shroud/Shield & 2 Scatter lasers
Skathach WraithKnight w/ Inferno lances & 2 Star cannons
2000pts exactly

The DeathShroud WKs would deploy, leaving the Inferno lance WK in the webway. With only 2 drops, you'd go first and could either Alpha strike the Inferno in, or put the 2 DeathShrouds in the webway forcing your opponent to do nothing in there first turn
Unless they are playing Conscript/Razorwing flock/Brimstone/whatever spam, they shouldn't be able to block your entry in the next turn. And if you are playing against a list with that kind of spam, 3 WKs have no chance to win anyway

On a more serious note, I am eager to try a list with 1 WK and 5 Flyers + some jetbike characters.

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 Galef wrote:

Skathach WraithKnight w/ Death Shroud/Shield & 2 Scatter lasers
Skathach WraithKnight w/ Death Shroud/Shield & 2 Scatter lasers
Skathach WraithKnight w/ Inferno lances & 2 Star cannons
2000pts exactly

The DeathShroud WKs would deploy, leaving the Inferno lance WK in the webway. With only 2 drops,
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3.

How is it 3 drops? I'd by putting the Inferno lance WK "in the webway" and thus he isn't on the board.
If units embarked in a transport do not count as a drop, then surely units put in "reserves" don't either

But even still, I don't think any other army will have less than 3 drops.
Going first, then jumping the 2 Deathshroud WKs into the webway so that all 3 WKs drop in on turn 2 should be a very powerful Alpha strike against "average' armies
And by average, I mean armies that aren't spamming chaff units, flyer spam, or Guilly-backs.

Should be able to kill several targets, particularly focusing on ones that have D6 damage weapons. Then they can assault, possibly using a CP to re-roll the charge.
Pile-in to engage as many units as possible so they less units can shoot after falling back and go from there.

I wouldn't bring it to a tourney, but I plan on playing it eventually

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Units put in reserves do count as drops. And you can't have more units in reserve than you have deployed on the table


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for what it's worth, I think you either want 2x death shroud, 2x inferno lance or 1 of each. I don't see any of the GW weapon options as optimal.

Inferno lances, even considering the insane cost, are the most points efficient against hard targets. HWCs are probably better though, just to free up points to spend on units that aren't overcosted. The suncannon is pretty poor, and the deathshrouds are extremely points inefficient.

 Galef wrote:
Is there anything that prevents you from having no units on the table in a turn?

Yes, in matched play you must deploy at least half your army on the table. Obviously in narrative play, anything goes.

I tend to agree that the Wraithcannon build is probably the way to go, probably with a Farseer nearby to buff him. Add Scatter Lasers for volume of fire against hordes and you are good to go. I like the look of the Suncannon and shield but then I look at the Imperial Knight Paladin which has very similar stats and weapons but an S8 main gun as well as being about 20% cheaper and my heart sinks.

I like the sword and board with twin shuriken cannons. Let's it fire some shots while rushing upfield and I can crush anything in melee if I get the charge off.

Remember that you can multi-assault with single models this edition. I rushed one into three combat squads of marines and forced all of their special weapons to be wasted for a whole turn while I dropped the foot down on one with a lascannon.

Since there is no downside for you leaving combat, it really has no drawback for you.

 Galef wrote:
My personal opinion is that the Sword/Shield WK isn't all that needed since the basic WK has Fists or Feet that do pretty decent damage themselves, so you really miss out on not having a main gun.

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I know it's common knowledge already, but Titanic Wraithbone fists are worse or similiar against almost every target than Titanic Feet.

I hope they were optional and you could discard them for a point saving

I think the sword has its uses, but the problem is that it's a specialist tool against large stuff like Stompas and IK and then you have at least get them across the battlefield.

I personally like the Suncannon(used to run them exclusively in 7th), but the cost is rather prohibitive now.

I have seen people argue that the invuln isn't really worth it, but I have to disagree. It's a good insurance against a lot of high wound weapons with low AP.

Eldarsif wrote:
I think the sword has its uses, but the problem is that it's a specialist tool against large stuff like Stompas and IK and then you have at least get them across the battlefield.

I personally like the Suncannon(used to run them exclusively in 7th), but the cost is rather prohibitive now.

I have seen people argue that the invuln isn't really worth it, but I have to disagree. It's a good insurance against a lot of high wound weapons with low AP.

nobody is going to bring a 977 point stompa in competitive, but against IK the sword and board is nice. even against land raiders and the like it is nice.

on the idea of low drop I would say 3 wk and if you can squeeze it in a wave serpant with a troop and hq for the command point and makes it one more drop so you start one ws and one wk, then shunt in the 2 other wk

 Karhedron wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Is there anything that prevents you from having no units on the table in a turn?

Yes, in matched play you must deploy at least half your army on the table.

I know you must deploy (i.e. start the game) with at least half your units, but my question is if you can jump all your units into reserves (sorry, my LGS keeps selling out of the rulebook and I am apparently so far down on the list)
So can an army with all units like Skathach WKs, Swooping Hawks, etc use all those abilities to leave the table in the same turn?
If so, do you auto-lose, or if that rule only 7E?

I was looking at the Death Shroud and it looks really versatile. 2 WKs with DS/Shield could be good pair of units to start on the table

The Matched Play rules say somewhere that you lose if you have no units on the board at the end of any round after the first.

Dionysodorus wrote:
The Matched Play rules say somewhere that you lose if you have no units on the board at the end of any round after the first.

Interesting. So if it's only after the first round, that means I could jump all 3 WKs into the webway on turn 1, but on turn 2, at least 1 needs to be on the table (although preferable all 3)

Tactically, I'd probably be just a good keeping the DeathShroud WKs on the table, moving them forward and dropping the Inferno lance WK into the think of the enemy. Use all that first turn firepower to knock out and/or charge any units that threaten the WKs most (like Devastator squads or any units with multiple Lascannon/Missile launcher equivalents)
If I can successfully do that, I doubt most army lists will have the remaining firepower to reliably take out the WKs

But again, any army that is focusing on spamming chaff units will just win on objectives.
If spamming Razorwing flocks is the only way for Aeldari to win tourneys this edition, than my Aeldari are not going to go to tourneys at all

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It's not. Eldar are fine.

The inferno lances are obviously better than wraithcannons but I don't think they're worth the points. Also, leaving the table has always felt highly situational to me. Even starting off the table for turn 1 is only really helpful if the rest of your army is hidden or presents inefficient targets to the enemy AT. If they just blow up all your other stuff you're not gaining a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, I'll also second the consensus I see so far that the melee load-out is unnecessary and the Suncannon load-out is too expensive.

Ok, just for the record I run the numbers on the dice-hammer app for Titanic Fists vs Feet, and as expected the former are always inferior to the latter.
However, against 2+ saves the difference is narrow enough that a lucky Command Point reroll for damage could turn Fists more efficient than Feet from time to time. I don't know how to calculate it, it seems rather complex.

As a side note, I think all kinds of Knights shouldn't be abe to use Titanic Feet against knight-sized models. It makes no sense ( a kick against an opponent of your size is not very different from a punch) and it would make Titanic close combat weapons more balanced and attractive.

I just came up with a really dumb list that I may try out today. I love the fact that Skathach WKs can mix weapons. I really think that pushes them over the edge towards being good (although still to expensive)

___Auxiliary Support_____-1CP
Autarch Skyrunner w/ Lance, Mandiblaster & Deathspinner

____Super Heavy_____+3CP
WraithKnight w/ Wraithcannons & 2 Scatter lasers

Skathach WraithKnight w/ Deathshroud/ Inferno lance & Shuricannon
Skathach WraithKnight w/ Deathshroud/ Inferno lance & Shuricannon
___________________________________1997pts/ 5 CPs

The Autarch is in the list for 3 reasons:
1) for the list to have a Warlord. this is more of a theme reason, than tactics. 2 of my WKs are models as Wraithlords riding large jetbikes (Vyper with larger wings/fins)
2) It provides a 4th unit so that both Skathach WKs can start deployed in the webway
3) to provide re-roll 1s to the regular WK, who he will be sticking very close to as a body guard

This idea here is to go first, drop in both Skathach WKs and wreak havoc. Given a strong alpha strike that targets the biggest threats to the WKs (anything with Lascannons or Missile launchers for example), it could be a very hard game for an opponent to win.

The list will likely lose to an opponent with plenty of models, but against elite-style armies, it should at least prove to be a fun game for both players.

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