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I'm having a little trouble trying to reconcile how exactly Primaris Marines fit into a Chapter's current operation. Now, obviously, GW wants to do something 'new'/make money, so less of those types of comments please, because it's a foregone conclusion. However, in terms of each unit, what new feature do they bring to a Chapter Master's arsenal of options:

Intercessors:Nothing new - just tactical marines, but bigger, stronger, faster. Presumably, each new recruit will now be implanted with Primaris grade gene-seed, so eventually the whole Chapter will be converted slowly to Primaris grade.

Inceptors: These, I can't make heads nor tails of. So instead of dropping a Devastator or an Assault squad from orbit in a drop pod, you drop a swarm of smaller targets, that, once they reach the ground, fulfill neither role adequately. So, increased survivability in orbital drop, traded for decreased adaptability on the ground - seems backwards.

Hellblasters: With the exception of some increased reliability to their weapons, they're no different from a special weapons support squad - so no tactical development there.

Aggressors: I'm failing to see the difference between these guys and a squad of Terminators with cyclone launchers and stormbolters. Admittedly they have belt feeds for continuous fire, but lore wise so do a lot of integral stormbolters such as Pedro Kantor's - it's not a new concept. They're just a 40k version of 30k Iron Warrior's Tyrant Siege Terminators.

Reivers: Scouts in power armour. So, again, what advantage do these marines bring over scouts? The whole reason Scouts don't wear power armour is because it's less stealthy.

Mk X Gravis Armour: Less durable than TDA, but more maneuverable - that sounds just like the design brief of Tartarus TDA to me, but with even less durability.

I'm not raising any of this to be a troll or just to whine - I genuinely would like somebody to potentially point out something that I seem to be missing, because much as I like the new models (Well, the Mk X and Reivers - not so much the Gravis or Inceptors), I just can't seem to gel with the fluff. A lot of it seems to be quite jarring or having been on the cusp of being something great, but just mucked up enough for it to fall short.

they have some options vs stanbdard marines but yes are not clearly superior. which is GW's intent.

FWIW, I don't think the Inceptors are supposed to replace devastators. I think they are supposed to replace bikes. They come in the same squad size, are fast on the ground, can flank like crazy from orbit, and are just a touch shootier than bikes.

I think the multi-kits will really flesh out the roles for a lot of these units.

Basically the plan is for them to replace regular marines at all levels and replace the codex astartes from the ground up IMHO. Rowboat realises he fethed up and probably did so right from the beginning. He's trying to make SpaceBook 2: Electric Boogaloo.

 Groslon wrote:
FWIW, I don't think the Inceptors are supposed to replace devastators. I think they are supposed to replace bikes. They come in the same squad size, are fast on the ground, can flank like crazy from orbit, and are just a touch shootier than bikes.

I think the multi-kits will really flesh out the roles for a lot of these units.

I agree they're a Bike replacement.

There are already pictures out of Inceptors with dual plasma pistols so I think variation is a given.

I think it is deliberate to try and prevent Primaris unit X directly replacing regular unit Y. Instead they fit into new niches.

Inceptors can be used where the AAA is too intense for conventional drops

The role is to make money and basically be Chads.
Redundancy marks most units.
I like the idea of second line fire support in hellblasters.
They should have been released as marines and the new rules should have just upgraded standing marines to two wounds with points appropriately ascribed but now we have an ugly middle period where the coolest of the cool units from way back look to be squatted for ... Aggressors? Repuslors?
Lame.
Plus what of the obvious heresy that they represent?
Impossible for me to add them to my existing imperials without rethinking the entire theme of the army, a problem shared by any loyal servant of the emprah!


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 Groslon wrote:
FWIW, I don't think the Inceptors are supposed to replace devastators. I think they are supposed to replace bikes. They come in the same squad size, are fast on the ground, can flank like crazy from orbit, and are just a touch shootier than bikes.

I think the multi-kits will really flesh out the roles for a lot of these units.

Smart.

Reivers apparently have slightly cut-down power armour so they're still stealthy because apparently Cawl Makes Everything Better.

to be honest, he bugs me far more than Gulliman, as he basically violates every established element of mechanicus background and is the worst kind of "superscientist" trope in a setting that is entirly predicated on the idea that they don't exist.

Reivers are definitely not scouts in my eyes; they are far more durable with double the wound count and a better save so that gives them a distinct function right off the bat. Couple with special rules and weapons to make a close support role that scouts can't fill.

Agreed with irritation at Fix it All Cawl.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
I'm having a little trouble trying to reconcile how exactly Primaris Marines fit into a Chapter's current operation.

From a literary standpoint, they are the ultimate answer to problems with writing Mary Sue main characters - they are Mary Sue +1.

Other than that, don't expect any new GW releases to fill new niches in TT/battlefield tactics. By 5e the armies were already fleshed out for a near-full combined arms approach to warfare. 6e and 7e added a couple of new aspects, which were quickly accounted for. 8e just has excessive amounts of marine stuff now.


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locarno24 wrote:
Reivers apparently have slightly cut-down power armour so they're still stealthy because apparently Cawl Makes Everything Better.

to be honest, he bugs me far more than Gulliman, as he basically violates every established element of mechanicus background and is the worst kind of "superscientist" trope in a setting that is entirly predicated on the idea that they don't exist.

It's predicated on the idea that they do exist, but tend to get executed or exterminatus'd whenever they are encountered.

Men of Iron and whatnot.

Fabulous Bile is the great experimentor in SM genetics, but GW will never pursue that because they hate CSM.

I also think that it is worth mentioning that one of the primary roles of the Primaris Marines is to alleviate boredom. How many slightly different ways can those poor sculptors pose the same figures for 20 years? How long have they wanted to make something that wasn't a friggin Rhino chassis? At what point should they be allowed to let those molds wear out?

I would be very surprised if most of the armies don't end up like old Warhammer Fantasy armies. You can play 'em, but they aren't getting updates. The GW guys seem to want to do NEW stuff, and it looks like they are finally taking that risk.

 Groslon wrote:
I also think that it is worth mentioning that one of the primary roles of the Primaris Marines is to alleviate boredom. How many slightly different ways can those poor sculptors pose the same figures for 20 years? How long have they wanted to make something that wasn't a friggin Rhino chassis? At what point should they be allowed to let those molds wear out?

I would be very surprised if most of the armies don't end up like old Warhammer Fantasy armies. You can play 'em, but they aren't getting updates. The GW guys seem to want to do NEW stuff, and it looks like they are finally taking that risk.

Given that we've already crossed into M42 already, I wouldn't mind too much if they had a M41 line of all the traditional stuff, and an M42 line, where the Devs get to make new stuff as everyone feels the impact of the Cicatrix Maledictum.

 Groslon wrote:
I also think that it is worth mentioning that one of the primary roles of the Primaris Marines is to alleviate boredom. How many slightly different ways can those poor sculptors pose the same figures for 20 years? How long have they wanted to make something that wasn't a friggin Rhino chassis? At what point should they be allowed to let those molds wear out?

I would be very surprised if most of the armies don't end up like old Warhammer Fantasy armies. You can play 'em, but they aren't getting updates. The GW guys seem to want to do NEW stuff, and it looks like they are finally taking that risk.

It ultimately comes back to customers though; we like to BUY new stuff.

What is really weird about these new guys is that their statline is geared more for melee combat than regular marine statline but the new guys don't have melee units.

I mean, what's up with that? Even the primaris captain seems to wield a power sword for mostly image reasons.

I mean, why would you make bigger and stronger space marines if you only strap bigger guns on them? You know who would do something like that? ... Tau! That's who.

RedCommander wrote:
What is really weird about these new guys is that their statline is geared more for melee combat than regular marine statline but the new guys don't have melee units.

I mean, what's up with that? Even the primaris captain seems to wield a power sword for mostly image reasons.

I mean, why would you make bigger and stronger space marines if you only strap bigger guns on them? You know who would do something like that? ... Tau! That's who.

They have Reivers, Aggressors look like they can get stuck in with their powerfists too.
And I doubt that this is the last we'll see of the Primaris Marines.

The way I see it is that the primaris marines are geared towards bigger engagements where a single marine company won't do, i.e. the new and pretty gakky situation the imperium is in. A tactical squad is excellent in a company sized unit where manpower is at a premium and you need every unit to be able to manage in combat against a large variety of targets. So tactical marines have a heavy weapon for busting a tank and a flamer for clearing rooms, devastator squads are able to take many different weapons and split up and so on. But in larger engagements where whole chapters are fighting, a single meltagun or lascannon won't be enough considering you might have an armoured company bearing down on you. Therefore the primaris marines have aped the space marine legions and use specialised squads to manage. So intercessors are there to drop the enemy's infantry, hellblasters destroys heavy units together with the aggressors.

Investors seem to fit pretty neatly into the role of tactical reserve, you can keep them in low orbit and drop them down to blast a whole where a breakthrough seems likely or where the enemy is pushing through without having to commit to close combat making them different to assault marines who are supposed to engage with the enemy as quickly as possible and bikes who are designed more for scouting and harassing.

The reivers are the hardest ones to find a role for but I can see them as flank protectors on a strategic scale where they are dropped onto a flank where they use terror and ambush tactics to slow the enemy's reinforcements and allow the main marine force to fight their battle undisturbed. So more about fighting and less about scouting than scouts.

So in essence the marines have gone from 21st century tactics to WWI tactics with single companies no longer being enough or at least that is how I see it

RedCommander wrote:
What is really weird about these new guys is that their statline is geared more for melee combat than regular marine statline but the new guys don't have melee units.

I mean, what's up with that? Even the primaris captain seems to wield a power sword for mostly image reasons.

I mean, why would you make bigger and stronger space marines if you only strap bigger guns on them? You know who would do something like that? ... Tau! That's who.

Well, any unit is a melee unit when you get charged by genestealers. Just because you can shoot doesn't mean that has to be all you're good at (unless you're a filthy xenos tau of course).

I mean, the whole point of Space Marines is to be the ultimate Tip of the Spear. They're not line troops. They show up, kick down your door, shoot your boss, and tell you "welcome to the imperium." Or they show up, kick the teeth in of the biggest ork around, and then watch his waagh fall apart.

They simply lack numbers to do anything else. You put them on a real battle line and the enemy will simply pin them with disposable troops while he lines up the artillery or air support to blow them away.

From what I've seen of upcoming Primaris releases, they're adopting a release setup closer to say, Battlefront with Team Yankee.

Because their market is flooded with copycats, they only have limited units/options presented up front, and any other options comes in as basically entire new units only after their retail boxes are ready.

They're trying hard to not step on current SM toes right now, there's units that fulfill some similar roles in different ways, but you can bet that in a few years you'll start seeing Primaris versions of old SM units.