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The ATC armies last weekend were worse than ever regarding spam and abuse. I have not given up hope that things will improve, but the rock/paper/scissors effect is even worse than in 7th. I really think that one of the largest problems is GW's abandonment of the Force Org Chart. Maybe we need a minimum required percentage of each army to be in Troops.... whether in points, number of units, or number of models.

Might you be able to provide some examples?

Seems like the majority of top lists were ones that spammed certain units. For example, taking nothing but flyers (storm ravens/hemlock fighters) or a combination of really good units like horrors/psykers/conscripts and various other goodies in the relevant codex.


You can find relevant lists and placings here: http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/07/17/40k-team-sport-atc-list-meta/

You know what makes me sad. It's not the fact all the best units and lists people have been stating the last month that are powerful are spammed (guilliman circle of rerolls, ravenspam, brimstone spam, razor wing flock spam, ynnari, conscript spam, artillery spam, scion spam, genecult stealer spam, tau commander spam, etc)
it's the fact orks continue to get the short end of the stick once again this edition..

Also by far stormraven is the most spammed unit but I think it's just the etc way which forces different armies and there are like 5 variants of space marines so each team can have multiple raven wing spam lists just by calling them by a separate chapter faction.

The West Coast GT winner ran orks. Frankly, the list is just like these others you're describing spam-wise, though (the full recap is here):

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Jeff-Everitt-1st-Overall-Wet-Coast-GT-2017.pdf

Things are looking a little grim for tournament army compositions in the new ruleset, I'll give you that!

I think gw can do another FAQ and fix a few issues such as stormravens being a bit undercosted however I don't think they can fix the issues with spam units this edition. Even if they nerfed everything spammed within these lists something else would get spammed under the current army design guidelines. However there are a handful of spammed units that are grossly overpowered for thier cost that need to be addressed immediately and a few more units that are fairly underpowered.

It's early. Things will settle. Plus team event lists are much more focused than singles lists due to ability to somewhat control match ups. Spam has happened since 3rd edition. It's not going anywhere now. But more balanced lists will start to emerge as peoplease adjust to the game and codexes start to release.

 RiTides wrote:
The West Coast GT winner ran orks. Frankly, the list is just like these others you're describing spam-wise, though (the full recap is here):

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Jeff-Everitt-1st-Overall-Wet-Coast-GT-2017.pdf

Things are looking a little grim for tournament army compositions in the new ruleset, I'll give you that!

That list looks pretty orky actually!

That's true, compared to these others I've really warmed up to it

That isn't all that spammier than 4th or 5th ed spam lists, and it's orky!

It would be interesting if they added a matched play rule where taking the same unit more than say...twice, causes it to cost 10% more or something, or maybe a CP.

I'm wondering if restrictioning to a single battalion detachment will,keep things in check.

 Hulksmash wrote:
It's early. Things will settle. Plus team event lists are much more focused than singles lists due to ability to somewhat control match ups. Spam has happened since 3rd edition. It's not going anywhere now. But more balanced lists will start to emerge as peoplease adjust to the game and codexes start to release.

This. You would never see these lists do well in a major non-team GT. So of course they are able to take min maxing to the next level at an event like this. I would not take this tournament as any indication of the current game state.

 luke1705 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
It's early. Things will settle. Plus team event lists are much more focused than singles lists due to ability to somewhat control match ups. Spam has happened since 3rd edition. It's not going anywhere now. But more balanced lists will start to emerge as peoplease adjust to the game and codexes start to release.

This. You would never see these lists do well in a major non-team GT. So of course they are able to take min maxing to the next level at an event like this. I would not take this tournament as any indication of the current game state.

Um these lists already won major tournaments. Ravenspam won two majors, and brimstone and razorwing, did well in both majors as well. If your going to make boa tent claims about majors at least look at the last 3 majors to seee your statement is already wrong.

I know you guys hate it, but,
Comp is our only hope.

Even if somehow all these horde type lists were somehow comped or nerfed, Mass SR would then go back to being an issue again. These are becoming popular because they can either reliably deal with mass SR or because they can deal with mass razorflocks or mass brimstones which counter mass SR.

Actually, I wonder how a horde vs horde battle can even finish considering the hundreds of dice being rolled. lol

I think it'd be neat to limit using the same datasheet more than twice, and if you must use it a 3rd time or beyond, you pay a CP for each. Could be interesting especially when more armies have uses for CP and probably would not like paying that.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
I think it'd be neat to limit using the same datasheet more than twice, and if you must use it a 3rd time or beyond, you pay a CP for each. Could be interesting especially when more armies have uses for CP and probably would not like paying that.

I'm not sure that helps much if you just have to pay CP for things. If you wanted to go that way my preference would be

1.) No non-troop data sheet may be taken more than 2 times (maybe 3?)
2.) No Air-wing detachment
3.) No Auxiliary detachment
4.) Maximum of 1 patrol detachment

This stops spam of any one type of unit, and also caps flyer spam pretty effectively (Raven spam would, just become imperial flyer spam pretty easily otherwise.

A small notable solution I see is in the example of the Nova Open missions. One of the secondaries actually makes you auto give up 2pts per game if you don't bring at least one troop selection.