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I know it's been covered but I'm having trouble finding it again. Im still trying to decide if d scythes are worth it especially with the points hike.

I use one each in 5x wraithgaurd units and am still finding the scythes underwhelming with lack of damage output. It could be my dice but even when I mathed it out the cannons and scythes come down to the same number of damages per volley.

I guess the real question I have is when are they worth 25pts each to take.

I don't know how you could possibly mathhammer them out so that they have the same expected damage per volley. The Scythes auto hit with more attacks and have the same numbers to wound as the Cannons. The Scythes will come out miles ahead against any single wound infantry and anything with a to hit modifier. The Cannons come out slightly ahead against multi wound models simply because of the D6 damage, but are probably about the same or worse against 2W infantry (because the net increase in damage isn't very good).

So basically its going to depend on what you need them for, on paper the Scythes are a much stronger generalist choice because of the auto hit, and the incredible overwatch threat they have. Cannons are stronger if you need a tank hunting unit, but equally Fire Dragons can do that pretty ok.

Just to check, you do know that Cannons/Scythes are an entire squad upgrade right? I.e. the entire unit has to take the same weapon. Also not sure what points you are referring to, but a 5 man Scythe unit is 25pts more than a Cannon unit (they aren't 25 points more per guy).

Yeah. they only deal 1 damage each wound maxing out at 15 wounds though my blades with ghost swords are putting out more damage per game than both my guards have. They took down a triarch stalker one game and a carnefex in another game.

Right now my most common opponent will be feilding necrons warriors or tyanids (sometimes hoards, sometimes monster heavy)

I totally blanked on the scythes cost.

Short answer: they're both good.

Scythes are a better overall TAC choice. There aren't really many "bad targets" for them and they'll always put damage on a unit. Auto-hit is amazing in 8th, and don't forget it means they can advance and fire without issue. Which is why they're more expensive.

Cannons are great at what they do, but are limited by being more specialized. Vehicles, characters, anything tough with multiwounds will vaporize or at the least be crippled after getting hit by the cannons. But they're an awful weapon for shooting at 1 wound models.

Bottom line: model them with what option you think looks best and tell your opponent which one you're using if you decide to change it. Most people don't know or care about the difference visually and if you tell them and pay the points it won't be an issue (tournaments aside).

I generally find the extra 5ppm on Scythes to be well spent. They are almost as good as Wraithcannnons against large targets and much better against infantry (I haven't faced an army yet in 8th that didn't have a reasonably number of infantry given the price hike vehicles have had).

Also the shorter range does not matter too much as they are assault weapons which auto-hit. That means you can Advance and still fire at full effect which pretty much compensates for the shorter range. I also love the look of fear in my opponent's eyes as they weigh up whether it is worth risking the auto-hitting overwatch from the D-Scythes to charge them.

 Karhedron wrote:
I generally find the extra 5ppm on Scythes to be well spent. They are almost as good as Wraithcannnons against large targets and much better against infantry (I haven't faced an army yet in 8th that didn't have a reasonably number of infantry given the price hike vehicles have had).

Also the shorter range does not matter too much as they are assault weapons which auto-hit. That means you can Advance and still fire at full effect which pretty much compensates for the shorter range. I also love the look of fear in my opponent's eyes as they weigh up whether it is worth risking the auto-hitting overwatch from the D-Scythes to charge them.

Remember that they still have to be in range to be able to shoot. If I place my unit so that only one of your models is within 8" of my lead model then I just take 1D3 hits and I need a 7 to get in. The slingshot of the initial pile in gets the rest of the unit into range, and if I roll an 8+ on the distance its a moot point.

Imo the strength of the Scythe Wraithguard is that they can fall back and shoot with no penalty. They don't fold to a stiff breeze and even if your opponent knows how to play around flamer overwatch they don't melt in combat because they have such a bricky stat line. It means they can rumble around up close, and if your opponent can't dictate the engagement range they can't do that trick for overwatch anymore.

I really want to like D-scythes more as they seem much more versatile. I just hate that you have to roll a single D3 for the whole unit.
You'd get a much more consistent average of 10 each time they fired if each model rolled D3 hits
Instead, we get a Russian Roulette of 5, 10 or 15 hits. Sure it averages over the course of the game, but I'd rather see that average in action each time, rather than getting a $h!+ roll one turn and an amazing roll the next.
Rolling a single D3 is almost demanding you use a Command point re-roll and if you are using a lot of Wraiths, it is unlikely that have many CPs in the first place.

Other than that, D-scythes are the better choice. Particularly because you can have 9 Fire Dragons for the same cost as 5 Cannon WG and those Dragons will undeniably obliterate any vehicle they shoot at, with the potential to kill 2 in a turn with split fire.

I am still baffled as to why WG have to choose the same weapon. It would have been awesome if you could mix Scythes and Cannons

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D-scythes all the way. I suggest two units of 5 WG each of which in a Serpent. These units are absolutely deadly. At the weekend, I battled GK and targeted one full GKSS unit with one 5 men WG squad. Rolled a 3 for the number of shots. 15 rolls to hit. No Strike survived. Ouch!

Unless you need the extra 4" of range, the scythes are better against everything except models with more than 3 wounds. And their overwatch is of course fearsome

Moreover, flamers are good vs. flyers these days. I don't know what GK has been thinking. But flamers auto-hit and together with smite are very dangerous for flying objects.

 Galef wrote:
I really want to like D-scythes more as they seem much more versatile. I just hate that you have to roll a single D3 for the whole unit.

I hated that at first, until I saw command points in action. D-Scythes d3 rolls are one of the most effective uses of a command point out there, after seizing the initiative. You only have a 1/9 chance of 1 shot per model (unless you gamble and re-roll a "2" result).

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I really want to like D-scythes more as they seem much more versatile. I just hate that you have to roll a single D3 for the whole unit.

I hated that at first, until I saw command points in action. D-Scythes d3 rolls are one of the most effective uses of a command point out there, after seizing the initiative. You only have a 1/9 chance of 1 shot per model (unless you gamble and re-roll a "2" result).

You know you can only use one command point for per phase?

I hate it. I *have* to use command points on a unit to make the effective. Command points aren't infinite. I've generally got 4 for the whole game.

 Silent_Tempest wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I really want to like D-scythes more as they seem much more versatile. I just hate that you have to roll a single D3 for the whole unit.

I hated that at first, until I saw command points in action. D-Scythes d3 rolls are one of the most effective uses of a command point out there, after seizing the initiative. You only have a 1/9 chance of 1 shot per model (unless you gamble and re-roll a "2" result).

You know you can only use one command point for per phase?

I hate it. I *have* to use command points on a unit to make the effective. Command points aren't infinite. I've generally got 4 for the whole game.

You only need to use it once for every 3 times they shoot, in other words about one command point per game to avoid ever rolling a "1" result in 2 out of 3 games.

 Silent_Tempest wrote:

Spoiler:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I really want to like D-scythes more as they seem much more versatile. I just hate that you have to roll a single D3 for the whole unit.

I hated that at first, until I saw command points in action. D-Scythes d3 rolls are one of the most effective uses of a command point out there, after seizing the initiative. You only have a 1/9 chance of 1 shot per model (unless you gamble and re-roll a "2" result).

You know you can only use one command point for per phase?

I hate it. I *have* to use command points on a unit to make the effective. Command points aren't infinite. I've generally got 4 for the whole game.

This is exactly my thinking too. I usually need that 1 Stratagem per phase on something else. And having to use them to make my units effective "steals" them away when I really really need them, like on a crutial saving throw.

Also, if you have more than 1 unit, you can only re-roll the D3 on one of those units.

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Remember, a single roll makes the unit swingy, and that's good and bad. For every roll of 1, there's a roll of 3.

I prefer consistency as well. If command points didn't exist, I would lean towards one d3 per model, even though I know the averages are the same, so it's really just a tie breaker of a preference. But command points DO exist, and there are very few places you can spend one for greater effect than a D-Scythe d3 roll from a full unit. That's not a tie-breaker to me, that's a big check mark in the "pro single d3" column.

 Deathypoo wrote:
Remember, a single roll makes the unit swingy, and that's good and bad. For every roll of 1, there's a roll of 3.

I prefer consistency as well. If command points didn't exist, I would lean towards one d3 per model, even though I know the averages are the same, so it's really just a tie breaker of a preference. But command points DO exist, and there are very few places you can spend one for greater effect than a D-Scythe d3 roll from a full unit. That's not a tie-breaker to me, that's a big check mark in the "pro single d3" column.

I'd say most people consider 'swingy' to be bad. If you roll a 2 or a 3, great, your target is probably dead. But they can't be relied upon to always perform at their best which leads to whiffed shots, and lost games.

The advance and shoot is too good to pass up though I think. Just have to accept the use of a CP every now and then.

Yes, in a world with command re-rolls, the "one roll for the whole unit" mechanic that the scythes use is really, really good. For a unit of 5, on average you are spending 1/3 of a CP to increase the squad's output by 1.67 shots, which is a 16% increase in firepower, or an extra 1.4 dead MEQs or 1.11 wounds on a Leman Russ or a Stormraven or whatever. In the moment, when you roll a 1 you're deciding whether to spend 1 CP for an expected 5 extra shots, which translates to an extra 4.17 dead MEQs or 3.33 T6+ wounds. This is better than using the CP to re-roll a d6 damage roll of 1, which is otherwise a no-brainer.

The problem with relying on CPs is that:
A) what if you needed a CP on the advance roll just to be in range in the first place? With only a 5" move and 8" range, this is likely to happen often
B) If you take more than 1 unit, the first unit may have a good change to roll high because of the reroll, but the second unit has a 1/3 chance to only get 1 hit if you've already used the re-roll on the first unit.

If it were D3 per model each turn, the chances of 5 WG only getting 1 hit each is virtually non-existent. So is the chance to roll 3 hits each, but that's a worth-while trade off to prevent that 1 time you really needed to get 6+ hits to kill a unit.
Consistency would make needing the CP re-roll not necessary.
I could see it being a balancing factor if D-scythes did more than 1 damage, but they do not.

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yeah, you are really re-rolling 5 dice with that command point. Seems like a good plan

I'm still learning the cp system, so far rerolls have been the only thing I use because my list do what I build them to do and if I'm facing a rock to my scissors I just have a fun game while I lose.

Just the case when we're playing the relic and my Wraithhost hast to face off with a command tank unit two basilisk and Celestine. I denied the objective but was tabled on turn five so he still got an overwhelming victory even though he couldn't pick up the relic.

After what everyone has said I think I'll stick with one unit of each placing them last in deployment so I can pinpoint the best target for each one.