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I noticed something with each of the 1st founding Space Marine Legions. Each one has something that resembles something from a certain culture of sorts. For example, the Space Wolves have Vikings, The White Scars have Mongols, the Dark Angels have a Knight-like order (well more so in 30k), the Raven Guard have a Native-American vibe, and heck even the Ultramarines have a Roman theme for theme going on. But there's one I could never figure out a counterpart for, The Imperial Fists. For the most part, the Imperial Fists seem to be a standard Space Marine chapter (arguably more Vanilla than the Ultramarines) with a special talent for Siege warfare and a fixation on physical and spiritual endurance. Now don't get me wrong the Imperial Fists are in fact my 3rd favorite chapter and my 4th favorite Legion, but I can't really think of any Counterparts for them like the other first founding chapters. So are there any counterparts you can think of?

It's been kinda overshadowed by the fortification thing but Imperial Fists are(/were) space Prussians, efficient, methodical and no sense of humor. they also used to have fluff about having lots of sword duels and dueling scars which kinda remains with the Feast of Blades, also Teutonic Knight themes when you extend to include black templars.

Try and find a copy of Ian Watson's [I]Space Marine[I], and remember it was written in 1993 and some things have changed.

A fair amount hasn't, though; the senior command staff (Chapter master Pugh, Librarian Grenzstein, Chaplain Lo Chang), being a fleet-based chapter rather than planet-bound, and recruiting from Necromunda and Inwit.

Some details have changed, though. Notably, their campaign against the Orks on Necrimunda has been pushed back from late M:41 to the Great Crusade.

I got a copy, yeah, worth a read.

I also have old space wolf books and in both cases changes, things are not so all out Wolf /Fisty and abit more subtle..

Space marine goes unto detail how marines are trained, and scout phase, also the extent of honour, duels and such for Imperial Fists.

 Yougottapaythetrolltoll wrote:
I noticed something with each of the 1st founding Space Marine Legions. Each one has something that resembles something from a certain culture of sorts. For example, the Space Wolves have Vikings, The White Scars have Mongols, the Dark Angels have a Knight-like order (well more so in 30k), the Raven Guard have a Native-American vibe, and heck even the Ultramarines have a Roman theme for theme going on. But there's one I could never figure out a counterpart for, The Imperial Fists. For the most part, the Imperial Fists seem to be a standard Space Marine chapter (arguably more Vanilla than the Ultramarines) with a special talent for Siege warfare and a fixation on physical and spiritual endurance. Now don't get me wrong the Imperial Fists are in fact my 3rd favorite chapter and my 4th favorite Legion, but I can't really think of any Counterparts for them like the other first founding chapters. So are there any counterparts you can think of?

Stoic Romans/Prussians.

Machs wrote:

 Yougottapaythetrolltoll wrote:
I noticed something with each of the 1st founding Space Marine Legions. Each one has something that resembles something from a certain culture of sorts. For example, the Space Wolves have Vikings, The White Scars have Mongols, the Dark Angels have a Knight-like order (well more so in 30k), the Raven Guard have a Native-American vibe, and heck even the Ultramarines have a Roman theme for theme going on. But there's one I could never figure out a counterpart for, The Imperial Fists. For the most part, the Imperial Fists seem to be a standard Space Marine chapter (arguably more Vanilla than the Ultramarines) with a special talent for Siege warfare and a fixation on physical and spiritual endurance. Now don't get me wrong the Imperial Fists are in fact my 3rd favorite chapter and my 4th favorite Legion, but I can't really think of any Counterparts for them like the other first founding chapters. So are there any counterparts you can think of?

Stoic Romans/Prussians.

I'd probably say Greco-Roman than just Roman.
But there's certainly some Prussian (or at the very least German) connection - especially with many of the names.

Yeah, Greek flavour is significant. Stoicism and legionary attitude made me favour the "Roman" trait. On the other hand, Space Blues have a more "Republican" Roman trait, Ultramar being less completely devoted to war.
On the other hand, German stereotypes are not few.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Try and find a copy of Ian Watson's [I]Space Marine[I], and remember it was written in 1993 and some things have changed.

A fair amount hasn't, though; the senior command staff (Chapter master Pugh, Librarian Grenzstein, Chaplain Lo Chang), being a fleet-based chapter rather than planet-bound, and recruiting from Necromunda and Inwit.

Some details have changed, though. Notably, their campaign against the Orks on Necrimunda has been pushed back from late M:41 to the Great Crusade.

Vladimir Pugh isn't chapter master of the IF anymore.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Vorn_Hagen

Generally to figure out legion motifs I just look at the names, and well look at the stereotypes associated with any naming conventions in there, very stereotypical German/Prussian names or at least I think.

 Z-Ray wrote:
It's been kinda overshadowed by the fortification thing but Imperial Fists are(/were) space Prussians, efficient, methodical and no sense of humor. they also used to have fluff about having lots of sword duels and dueling scars which kinda remains with the Feast of Blades, also Teutonic Knight themes when you extend to include black templars.

I would put the Iron Warriors as Prussians, but come to think of it; they both might be Prussians but of different eras. The Fists being germanic from the Holy Roman Empire time period while the Iron Warriors are from the time of the wars of German unification.

This sets them up as brothers, but with the Fists trying to preserve the old imperial regime, to fortify it's defenses; while the IW are trying to tear it all down, both figureatively and literally.

For me my counter part I think of is just regular Germanic medieval knights, a bit like black Templars but without the crusading. And more hammers instead of *swords.

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
For me my counter part I think of is just regular Germanic medieval knights, a bit like black Templars but without the crusading. And more hammers instead of *swords.

This be me feelings as well

while the smurfs are sitting squarly in Rome

who fits the tea drinkers of the Brits in space marines?

 Exergy wrote:

 Z-Ray wrote:
It's been kinda overshadowed by the fortification thing but Imperial Fists are(/were) space Prussians, efficient, methodical and no sense of humor. they also used to have fluff about having lots of sword duels and dueling scars which kinda remains with the Feast of Blades, also Teutonic Knight themes when you extend to include black templars.

I would put the Iron Warriors as Prussians, but come to think of it; they both might be Prussians but of different eras. The Fists being germanic from the Holy Roman Empire time period while the Iron Warriors are from the time of the wars of German unification.

This sets them up as brothers, but with the Fists trying to preserve the old imperial regime, to fortify it's defenses; while the IW are trying to tear it all down, both figureatively and literally.

What about the Iron Warriors personality would possibly point towards Prussia?

The Imperial Fists are very much the stereo type of Prussia, at least until that awful Beast Arises series where they became gods know what.

The fists also have strong themes of self castigation that makes me think mote or general “medieval holy monastic knight order” that rolls in all the various nationalities like the Southern European Templars and Hospitallers and the northern Teutonic knights.

I feel like that comfortably rolls together alot of the themes.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Z-Ray wrote:
It's been kinda overshadowed by the fortification thing but Imperial Fists are(/were) space Prussians, efficient, methodical and no sense of humor. they also used to have fluff about having lots of sword duels and dueling scars which kinda remains with the Feast of Blades, also Teutonic Knight themes when you extend to include black templars.

I would put the Iron Warriors as Prussians, but come to think of it; they both might be Prussians but of different eras. The Fists being germanic from the Holy Roman Empire time period while the Iron Warriors are from the time of the wars of German unification.

This sets them up as brothers, but with the Fists trying to preserve the old imperial regime, to fortify it's defenses; while the IW are trying to tear it all down, both figureatively and literally.

What about the Iron Warriors personality would possibly point towards Prussia?

The Imperial Fists are very much the stereo type of Prussia, at least until that awful Beast Arises series where they became gods know what.

The IW are probably more about world war 1 and seige warfare, but the german state in WW1 was basically prussia and friends. Politically it was prussian dominated, the military was mostly prussian officers.
The iron reference, fits in with Bizmark's Blood and Iron quote.
The pride issue and needing to best all the other more established legions as prussia and later the early german state has the same issue getting to the colonial/industrialization party just a little late
The dependence on weapons and technology, rather than exceptional skill or feats of valor. Remember that the Purrians rolled the french in 1870 on the strength of their repeating rifles and field artiliery.

 Desubot wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
For me my counter part I think of is just regular Germanic medieval knights, a bit like black Templars but without the crusading. And more hammers instead of *swords.

This be me feelings as well

while the smurfs are sitting squarly in Rome

who fits the tea drinkers of the Brits in space marines?

Someone needs to make a chapter!
Drinking tea, purging heratics, and the tea ran put

The IW are more the prussian style, while I believe that the IF are more of a Greek/Spartan type style of fighting. With the phalanx and the stand your ground and slowly whittle away at the army till you break them. I could be wrong in my observation but this is what they appear to look like for me anyways.

Imperial fists also incorporate a decent Iberian vibe too. Heck the entire Crimson Fist chapter is most Spanish/Portuguese names.

I always thought there was a missed opportunity with the Imperial Fists and Dorn's 'Inwit' homeworld.

The Inwit are quite obviously Inuit-based, but considering they were a functioning interstellar civilisation when Dorn landed there's some really cool things that could be done with 'Space Inuits'.

Perhaps not necessarily for the Fists given that they're primarily Terran in culture, but for a successor chapter (and some neat inuit auxiliaries) that could be a damn cool avenue to explore.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I always thought there was a missed opportunity with the Imperial Fists and Dorn's 'Inwit' homeworld.

The Inwit are quite obviously Inuit-based, but considering they were a functioning interstellar civilisation when Dorn landed there's some really cool things that could be done with 'Space Inuits'.

Perhaps not necessarily for the Fists given that they're primarily Terran in culture, but for a successor chapter (and some neat inuit auxiliaries) that could be a damn cool avenue to explore.

Im just imagining a successor chapter that primarily uses power mauls to crush newly formed uprisings.

 Desubot wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
For me my counter part I think of is just regular Germanic medieval knights, a bit like black Templars but without the crusading. And more hammers instead of *swords.

This be me feelings as well

while the smurfs are sitting squarly in Rome

who fits the tea drinkers of the Brits in space marines?

Oddly, the best fit I can find would most likely be the Crimson Sabres - before they became the Crimson Slaughter.