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Hi all,

I have a few question regarding the Ynnari "Strength from death" rule.
The rule uses a very tricky word, which is "immediately", i will post some examples to understand with your help how it will work out.

My opponent has a unit, "X" composed by two models, "A" and "B"
I have two units, "Y" and "Z", both Ynnari.
He splits fire with his unit. He declares that "A" shoots at "Y" and "B" at "Z".
"A" kills "Y".
What happens? Can I immediately soulburst with "Z" and shoot at unit "X" or do I have to wait until "B" has shot?
My take is that I can do the soul burst, but I want to be sure.

Second Example:
Fight phase.
My Ynnari unit is in close combat with an enemy unit.
My unit wipes out the enemy unit, so my unit can soulburst.
Can I soulburst and charge another unit in range? And if the charge is successful, can I fight that unit already? After all, it's still the fight phase and I'm in close combat

Third Example:
Fight phase.
My Ynnari unit (call it "Y") has charged and is in close combat with an enemy unit but we're not fighting yet, say because another unit is fighting.
A unit within 7" dies. Can my "Y" unit soulburst fight before its "turn" to fight? I mean can it fight now and then later fight again when it's its proper turn to fight?
And if "Y" fights due to the soul burst action, does the enemy unit fight back? Or it has to wait until I fight again and the it can respond?

Thanks for your replies!

You have to wait. All shooting from a unit is done simultaneously.

No, you can't fight twice because you've already fought and you used the Soulburst to charge, not to fight,

Yes. The enemy unit follows the normal rules for selecting unit to fights.

Thanks!

And what about the other examples?

getbaic wrote:
Thanks!

And what about the other examples?

Sorry, Edited my post.

BaconCatBug wrote:You have to wait. All shooting from a unit is done simultaneously.

Is there a rules quotation you can find to back that statement up, because I do not believe there is any such statement.

getbaic wrote:Hi all,

I have a few question regarding the Ynnari "Strength from death" rule.
The rule uses a very tricky word, which is "immediately", i will post some examples to understand with your help how it will work out.

My opponent has a unit, "X" composed by two models, "A" and "B"
I have two units, "Y" and "Z", both Ynnari.
He splits fire with his unit. He declares that "A" shoots at "Y" and "B" at "Z".
"A" kills "Y".
What happens? Can I immediately soulburst with "Z" and shoot at unit "X" or do I have to wait until "B" has shot?
My take is that I can do the soul burst, but I want to be sure.

Until GW rules it otherwise, it seems pretty clear that you can soulburst in this case before the firing unit gets to finish firing at unit 'Z'. Of course, the argument could also be made that these are two things that are supposed to happen at the same time (the firing unit is supposed to continue firing at unit 'Z' and unit 'Z' is supposed to get to fire via a Soulburst action), and if that's the case, the 'sequencing' rules from the rulebook dictate that the player whose turn it is would get to choose the order the two are resolved in.

It really does need to be FAQ'd by GW.

Second Example:
Fight phase.
My Ynnari unit is in close combat with an enemy unit.
My unit wipes out the enemy unit, so my unit can soulburst.
Can I soulburst and charge another unit in range? And if the charge is successful, can I fight that unit already? After all, it's still the fight phase and I'm in close combat

The 'stepping into a new edition' PDF from GW clarified that if you cannot use soulburst to charge in the fight phase (not sure why that wasn't in the Index Xenos 2 FAQ, but whatever!).

Third Example:
Fight phase.
My Ynnari unit (call it "Y") has charged and is in close combat with an enemy unit but we're not fighting yet, say because another unit is fighting.
A unit within 7" dies. Can my "Y" unit soulburst fight before its "turn" to fight? I mean can it fight now and then later fight again when it's its proper turn to fight?
And if "Y" fights due to the soul burst action, does the enemy unit fight back? Or it has to wait until I fight again and the it can respond?

The soulburst action that allows a unit to fight says:

'The unit can fight as if it were the fight phase.'

There is nothing in that rule which allows the unit to fight more than once per fight phase, and I don't think it even allows the unit to fight before it is allowed (like before an enemy charging unit). The only thing I believe that rule allows you to do, as written, is to fight with one of your units outside of the fight phase as if it were the fight phase.

And just another thing to add about your last sentence: enemy units never automatically get to 'fight back'. Units only fight when they are picked to fight by their owning player (you seem to be confused on that).

 yakface wrote:

The soulburst action that allows a unit to fight says:

'The unit can fight as if it were the fight phase.'

There is nothing in that rule which allows the unit to fight more than once per fight phase, and I don't think it even allows the unit to fight before it is allowed (like before an enemy charging unit). The only thing I believe that rule allows you to do, as written, is to fight with one of your units outside of the fight phase as if it were the fight phase.

And just another thing to add about your last sentence: enemy units never automatically get to 'fight back'. Units only fight when they are picked to fight by their owning player (you seem to be confused on that).

I am unsure this is correct.

Strength from death states:
" That unit can immediately do one of the following, even if it has already done so this turn:"

In the following list included is fighting as if it was the fight Phase.

I believe the last sentence of the General rule, before the Options are listed allows you to do absolutely everything in that list for a second time in the same turn. I am not sure why fighting should be an exception based on the wording. It actually even says afterwards that this may mean a unit is able to fight or shoot twice a turn......

MagicGis wrote:

 yakface wrote:

The soulburst action that allows a unit to fight says:

'The unit can fight as if it were the fight phase.'

There is nothing in that rule which allows the unit to fight more than once per fight phase, and I don't think it even allows the unit to fight before it is allowed (like before an enemy charging unit). The only thing I believe that rule allows you to do, as written, is to fight with one of your units outside of the fight phase as if it were the fight phase.

And just another thing to add about your last sentence: enemy units never automatically get to 'fight back'. Units only fight when they are picked to fight by their owning player (you seem to be confused on that).

I am unsure this is correct.

Strength from death states:
" That unit can immediately do one of the following, even if it has already done so this turn:"

In the following list included is fighting as if it was the fight Phase.

I believe the last sentence of the General rule, before the Options are listed allows you to do absolutely everything in that list for a second time in the same turn. I am not sure why fighting should be an exception based on the wording. It actually even says afterwards that this may mean a unit is able to fight or shoot twice a turn......

And after the list, it says "Note that this means that a unit may be able to shoot or fight twice in the same turn.".
It's clear you can fight once outside of the fight phase + once during the fight phase. I think you're also allowed to fight normally in the fight phase, then fight a second time because of a soulburst action, because you can do so even if you already did it this turn.
However, if a unit soulbursts in the fight phase to fight, before that unit got selected through the normal procedure, I'm not sure it'll be able to fight a second time by selecting it, because you can only select a unit that hasn't fought yet.

About the first example, I think it interrupts the opponent's shooting.
Imagine model A was targeting an Aeldari unit, and model B a model from the Triumvirate. When model A kills Aledari models with its shooting attack, you would definitely roll your die to regain wounds on you Ynnari HQ right away, before model B gets to shoot (as you perform that action as soon as an Aeldari model dies). I don't see why it would be any different with soulburst actions.

fresus wrote:

MagicGis wrote:

 yakface wrote:

The soulburst action that allows a unit to fight says:

'The unit can fight as if it were the fight phase.'

There is nothing in that rule which allows the unit to fight more than once per fight phase, and I don't think it even allows the unit to fight before it is allowed (like before an enemy charging unit). The only thing I believe that rule allows you to do, as written, is to fight with one of your units outside of the fight phase as if it were the fight phase.

And just another thing to add about your last sentence: enemy units never automatically get to 'fight back'. Units only fight when they are picked to fight by their owning player (you seem to be confused on that).

I am unsure this is correct.

Strength from death states:
" That unit can immediately do one of the following, even if it has already done so this turn:"

In the following list included is fighting as if it was the fight Phase.

I believe the last sentence of the General rule, before the Options are listed allows you to do absolutely everything in that list for a second time in the same turn. I am not sure why fighting should be an exception based on the wording. It actually even says afterwards that this may mean a unit is able to fight or shoot twice a turn......

And after the list, it says "Note that this means that a unit may be able to shoot or fight twice in the same turn.".
It's clear you can fight once outside of the fight phase + once during the fight phase. I think you're also allowed to fight normally in the fight phase, then fight a second time because of a soulburst action, because you can do so even if you already did it this turn.
However, if a unit soulbursts in the fight phase to fight, before that unit got selected through the normal procedure, I'm not sure it'll be able to fight a second time by selecting it, because you can only select a unit that hasn't fought yet.

About the first example, I think it interrupts the opponent's shooting.
Imagine model A was targeting an Aeldari unit, and model B a model from the Triumvirate. When model A kills Aledari models with its shooting attack, you would definitely roll your die to regain wounds on you Ynnari HQ right away, before model B gets to shoot (as you perform that action as soon as an Aeldari model dies). I don't see why it would be any different with soulburst actions.

I agree with the last example, but the Explanation why you should not be able to fight twice in the fightphase makes little sense to me.

I think we all can agree that Special rule trumps core rule, that much is obvious. The Special rule here states, that they can do it even if they already done so this turn it goes as far as to restate the obvious a second Time after the list to prevent any Argument if that indeed allows you to basically damage your Opponent twice. It also states you do it "as if it is the fight Phase"
So it says you can do it even if you have done it, it states you can do it twice a turn, it states you can do it as if it is in the Phase you Claim to be restricting the selection. If that restriction of the fight Phase would override the first sentence of the Special rule in any way... how would you ever be able to fight or shoot twice like the rule very cleary states youare allowed to do.

The answer is you could not if picking the unit as in the fight Phase would apply, however the rule twice states you can do it. This is actually pretty easily explained, the rule itself never expects you to go through the pick step in the Shooting or fight Phase, because you already pick the unit who is doing it when soulbursting, the idea that you pick a unit, than go into another pick Phase in some Kind of mini Phase to pick the same unit again is crazy (no offense to you heard it from many persons).
The whole Point of the pick a unit step in both this phases is to Chose from the available Units, which already has happend when soulbursting, unfortunately GW assumed people would use common sense on this and not try to select a unit they already selected. This is even further pointed out by the last sentence of step one in the fight Phase which states that a fight is resolved as the following steps (2 onwards). So allowing you to fight should be resolved as those steps.

Bottom line, if a Special rule, allows you to do something even if you have already done it, as if you where in the phase in question clearifying that it gives you indeed the Option to do an Action otherwise only allowed once.. I am still have to see a convincing rule based Argument for why instead I should ignore all this from the Special rule in the phase in question, to do a selection step, that is supposed to select a unit from a bunch of Units, when the unit is the only one available because I already selected it with the Special rule... does this sound coherent with the rules simplification we otherwise got in this Edition?

It could be, but until a FAQ Drops (which should on this skill in particular it has a lot of wording issues), the save bet should be to Play it as the skill itself says....