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What is everyone's initial opinion on what is the strongest/best/most useful Chapter Tactic?

RG, no question. Even if its only on bikes, infantry and dreads its still very very strong.

Fists if you're playing on a proper table, Raven Guard if you're playing Green Hill Zone.

Toss up between Imperial Fists and Raven Guard.

I voted Raven Guard, though, because it will generally come up more than ignoring cover, or rerolling wounds if in a building.

I went with Salamanders, but Raven Guard were extremely close behind.

Up to 8 free CP per unit per game round (reroll to hit and to wound in your shooting phase, again in your fight phase, again in your opponent's charge phase, and a last set of rerolls in your opponent's fight phase). is a bit much, and there is NO way for the CT to be meaningfully mitigated (At least with Raven Guard, you can get within 12" of the enemy. No matter what you do, however, every Salamander Infantry, Bike, and Dread unit is going to be rerollin' like its going out of style.

Raven Guard's ability is undeniably seriously strong when it works, particularly against armies like IG, Orks, and T'au (BS4+ or worse for most), but it is potentially negated by an aggressive enemy force and an assault army will completely and utterly ignore it to the point that it has absolutely no effect (at least the Iron Hands still get their 6+++ in melee, Ravens get absolutely nothin').

Raven Guard will be good against poor players and particular armies. Salamanders are just solidly, consistently, boringly awesomesauce at whatever they want to do (so long as what they want to do involves Infantry, Bikes, and Dreads, but that's the same for any CT).

 Marmatag wrote:
I voted Raven Guard, though, because it will generally come up more than ignoring cover, or rerolling wounds if in a building.

I believe it says they re-roll wounds when they target buildings. Like cover, don't know how often one would see fortifications fielded. RG just good all the time.

I think Raven Guard might be best.

Imperial Fists chapter tactics does nothing against hordes.

Best overall? RG
Best if specifically built around? Sallies

I'd rank them just by CT as

A tier
1. RG
2. Sallies
3. Iron hands
B tier
4. UM
5. Black temps
C tier
6. Imp fists
7. White scars

RG is hot all around and virtually always effective.
Sallies is great when you have tac units with 1 heavy or dreads with low rate of fire like the missile/2 lascannon dread.

Iron hands are also stout. Could be viewed as similar to RG, in that the army is just in theory 17% harder to kill. Multi-damage weapons pretty much negate it, though, and the enemy plasma weapons don't explode more often like they do with RG sabotage going on!

UM are good. Shooting is usually what you would prefer to do if you're leaving combat with someone.

Black temps could be OK at best if built around as a melee force.

The imp fists sounds good, but cover isn't really all that and a bag of chips now. Ignoring it is ok at best. And I think I've personally only seen one building run in a game so far, and I was the one who ran it.

Scars the extra advance range is barely worth mentioning. Being able to charge after a fall back is alright, but not spectacular. Most marines are pretty bleh in melee. They're either going to be fighting things that they don't want to get in melee with, in which case when they get away they'd rather be UM to shoot, or they'll be picking on someone weak like fire warriors that will walk away instead, so the CT never comes up. Like was said about UM, if you're running from dudes, you'd prefer to shoot them, not charge back in.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I voted Raven Guard, though, because it will generally come up more than ignoring cover, or rerolling wounds if in a building.

I believe it says they re-roll wounds when they target buildings. Like cover, don't know how often one would see fortifications fielded. RG just good all the time.

Unless you get within 12". Then it doesn't work. If you know what you are doing and bring the right tools, the RG CT is negated. In fact I would say its quite situational; it relies on your opponent not bringing an assault army or trying to outshoot you across an open field.

Salamanders, Black Templars, White Scars, IH and Imperial Fists all have better utility and will see more use no matter the matchup, because you will always get to use rerolls, you will always get to negate cover, you will always get to roll to save a lost wound, you will always get to disengage and charge, and you will always get the reroll to charge.
Whereas for RG - "oh you deepstruck a bunch of units behind my gunline...I guess my chapter ability is useless then"
Ditto for UM - if the enemy doesn't charge them, its useless. Another situational, albeit useful, CT.

Remember kids, painting your marines black make all plasma weaponry explode more often! /s

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
I went with Salamanders, but Raven Guard were extremely close behind.

Salamanders CT are very good, close second IMO. The CP comparison isn't perfect because you're only re-rolling hit/wound and not say damage output (obv one could still use a cp for that). It's still good but trends towards high damage heavy weapons. The flat out -1 for all RG bikes/infantry/dreads still strikes me as stronger, there are other ways to get re-rolls on the hitting side of things.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I voted Raven Guard, though, because it will generally come up more than ignoring cover, or rerolling wounds if in a building.

I believe it says they re-roll wounds when they target buildings. Like cover, don't know how often one would see fortifications fielded. RG just good all the time.

Unless you get within 12". Then it doesn't work. If you know what you are doing and bring the right tools, the RG CT is negated. In fact I would say its quite situational; it relies on your opponent not bringing an assault army or trying to outshoot you across an open field.

Salamanders, Black Templars, White Scars, IH and Imperial Fists all have better utility and will see more use no matter the matchup, because you will always get to use rerolls, you will always get to negate cover, you will always want to disengage and charge, and you will always get the reroll to charge.
Whereas for RG - "oh you deepstruck a bunch of units behind my gunline...I guess my chapter ability is useless then"

The fact that it's possible for a unit to get within 12 inches, that "revelation", if you want to see it that way, doesn't all of a sudden mean every unit every game every turn is somehow within 12 inches. Always negating cover is something this edition does long before any CT interacts with the shreds of cover that may or may not exist in the rules. Why are we even debating if one can just take the CT that's ideal of each unit. or am I missing some other requirement? (IE if a unit intends to deep strike and charge, take BT ct's)

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
I went with Salamanders, but Raven Guard were extremely close behind.

Salamanders CT are very good, close second IMO. The CP comparison isn't perfect because you're only re-rolling hit/wound and not say damage output (obv one could still use a cp for that). It's still good but trends towards high damage heavy weapons. The flat out -1 for all RG bikes/infantry/dreads still strikes me as stronger, there are other ways to get re-rolls on the hitting side of things.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I voted Raven Guard, though, because it will generally come up more than ignoring cover, or rerolling wounds if in a building.

I believe it says they re-roll wounds when they target buildings. Like cover, don't know how often one would see fortifications fielded. RG just good all the time.

Unless you get within 12". Then it doesn't work. If you know what you are doing and bring the right tools, the RG CT is negated. In fact I would say its quite situational; it relies on your opponent not bringing an assault army or trying to outshoot you across an open field.

Salamanders, Black Templars, White Scars, IH and Imperial Fists all have better utility and will see more use no matter the matchup, because you will always get to use rerolls, you will always get to negate cover, you will always want to disengage and charge, and you will always get the reroll to charge.
Whereas for RG - "oh you deepstruck a bunch of units behind my gunline...I guess my chapter ability is useless then"

The fact that it's possible for a unit to get within 12 inches, that "revelation", if you want to see it that way, doesn't all of a sudden mean every unit every game every turn is somehow within 12 inches. Always negating cover is something this edition does long before any CT interacts with the shreds of cover that may or may not exist in the rules. Why are we even debating if one can just take the CT that's ideal of each unit. or am I missing some other requirement? (IE if a unit intends to deep strike and charge, take BT ct's)

What do you mean by choosing the CT ideal for the Unit? CTs are chosen for the whole army.

Im going to say Fists for now

not because raven guard isnt flipin strong but its 100% counterable just by distance.

Ignore cover is always on all the time


I SEE YOU


If we are talking Stratagems Raven guard by 1000 miles so far. we have to see.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


What do you mean by choosing the CT ideal for the Unit? CTs are chosen for the whole army.

By army, do you mean detachment? So if one could field say 3 detachments, their army could comprise of 3 different ct's. No?

 Crablezworth wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


What do you mean by choosing the CT ideal for the Unit? CTs are chosen for the whole army.

By army, do you mean detachment? So if one could field say 3 detachments, their army could comprise of 3 different ct's. No?

I suppose you could, but a Detatchment has vastly different implications than saying a unit, much like army vs detachment. All units in the Detachment would have the same CT.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
I went with Salamanders, but Raven Guard were extremely close behind.

Salamanders CT are very good, close second IMO. The CP comparison isn't perfect because you're only re-rolling hit/wound and not say damage output (obv one could still use a cp for that). It's still good but trends towards high damage heavy weapons. The flat out -1 for all RG bikes/infantry/dreads still strikes me as stronger, there are other ways to get re-rolls on the hitting side of things.

Lets put actual numbers in, to really understand how much the Sally benefit is (and yes, the CP number is a bit over the top as a comparison, but it really has the potential to be worth every illusory CP spent):

5 Bolter marines firing at Fire Warriors (their fault for daring to include the word "fire" in their name, I suppose):

You're almost certain to miss at least one, so you get to reroll that miss. Congrats, you effectively gained a shot you wouldn't have had otherwise, which hits 2/3 of the time (barring penalties). Further, as you're firing bolters, you're bound to fail at least one to-wound roll. Congrats, you effectively gained an extra "hit" that you wouldn't have had otherwise, which wounds 2/3 of the time.

That means the bolter marines get an extra 2/3*2/3 (chance of extra hit * chance to wound) + 2/3 (chance to wound) wounds inflicted above and beyond what they would have gotten otherwise, or just over one (10/9ths) extra bolter wounds per shooting phase.
At 12" or greater, you go from 2.22 wounds per round to 3.33 wounds per round (both inflicted, not unsaved - the important thing is the ratio). That's nothing less than a 50% increase in firepower, for a weapon type that honestly benefits the least from this CT.
At <12", you're still going from 4.44 wounds per round to 5.56, or a roughly 25% increase in firepower. That's still not bad at ALL.

5 Devastator marines firing 4 lascannons at a Hammerhead (because it aimed one of its eyes at the Devastators funny, and that gak won't fly):

We'll just ignore the bolter for now and consider the lascannons. Of those 4 lascannons, 1 is likely to miss. Congrats, you effectively gained a LASCANNON shot you wouldn't have had otherwise, which hits 2/3 of the time. Further, as you've got about 3 rolls, you're likely to roll a failure to wound at least once. Congrats, you effectively gained a LASCANNON hit you wouldn't have had otherwise.

This time, however, we've only fired 4 Lascannons, so we've only inflicted 1.78 lascannon wounds without the CT. With the CT, you end up with 2.89 lascannon wounds inflicted.

...Ladies and gentlemen, that is nothing less than 62.5% increase in your lascannon's output on its choicest target.

And the biggest thing, the most important thing, the thing that makes this absolutely bonkers... you STILL can use your CP, so instead of wasting one just to get another Lascannon hit or wound on the target, you now get to spend it boosting pure, unadulterated damage most of the time. And you now have an extra dice to roll, so you don't feel you need to "waste" a CP reroll on a damage roll of 2 or 3 (since you'll probably have a 1 or 2 that would benefit more anyway).

But lets not forget about Dreads! Lets take a vet Rifleman Dread firing two twin autocannons at a Shas'o Ralai (not because he is a threat - he isn't - but purely out of spite)

Of those 8 shots, only one is likely to miss. Congrats, you... well, you probably know the drill, but this time you're getting an extra 5/6 of a hit. With 7 or 8 hits, you're almost certain to fail at least one to-wound. Congrats, you're... getting bored with this format.

Lets just hit the numbers. 5/6*2/3 (chance to hit * chance to wound) + 2/3 (chance to wound) = 11/9 extra wounds inflicted.

Since the baseline output is 4.44, you're looking at a 27.5% increase in effective firepower. Not as awesome as other circumstances, but still pretty damn awesome to have just for showing up.





And the rub, which still hasn't really been addressed yet, is that these sorts of effectiveness boosts (generally for MSU or small quantities of shooting on a unit-per-unit level) will apply each game, every game, all game, no matter who your opponent is or what he brings to the table, because its an inherent ability with NO mitigating circumstances.

Ravenguard's effective defensive bonus is also variable - at best, it doubles the defensive bonus (against BS5+), it diminishes to a 50% defensive bonus against BS4+, it diminishes further to 33% defensive bonus against BS3+, and drops to 25% against BS2+.

A good half the armies in this game are BS3+ baseline, and a significant portion of the armies have viable melee builds that can completely and utterly ignore any and all benefit the Raven Guard gain from their Chapter. All of it, meaningless, against one of only two categories of armies in the game (and particularly a playstyle that has recieved a significant boost from 8e in general).

I mean, seriously, Raven Guard is the Bee's Knees, but it has mitigating factors that prevent it from being nearly as powerful (either against an entire category of armies, or against a skillful opponent that know why and how to play aggressively), while Sallies... Sallies just keep on keepin on bein' strong to right the wrong.

I'm a big surprised no one is considering iron fists. Sure, RG is going to ignore more damage when it factors in, by iron fists will have theirs even in close combat or short range shooting, not to mention attacks which don't roll to hit like mortal wounds from psychic powers and flamers.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


What do you mean by choosing the CT ideal for the Unit? CTs are chosen for the whole army.

By army, do you mean detachment? So if one could field say 3 detachments, their army could comprise of 3 different ct's. No?

We don't actually know. There may or may not be other limitations to prevent it.

one thing to consider is CTs are only part of the puzzle, stratigiums and relics are also a big factor here too. so those could take a army with a strong CT and make it less desireable then one with a less powerful one.

Reading the Chapter Tactics

Black Templars - Cool, kinda of like the Khorne bonus

Iron Hands - So, Nurgle but weaker? geez, they are kinda of really copy pasting Chaos huh...

Imperial Fists - Woah! Very awesome, but does require enemies in cover. Will probably be pretty popular.

White Scars* - Damn! That's really good, way better than Black Templars bonus. Oh well, I guess BT is just going to be mediocre.

Salamanders - hohoho wow thats insanely good. MSU spam just got turned up to 11. This and White Scars are probably going to be the best ones.

Raven Guard - Welp, GG

Yeah, but if they're out of cover then they can be picked off by the units that don't benefit from CT. Remember that CT can only be used by infantry, bikes and dreads. Tanks don't have the bonus.
So you're opponent basically has a choice - stay in cover, and get shot at by infantry with special / heavy weapons, or leave cover and get shot at by vehicles.

Its actually more useful than you'd think in a practical situation.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, but if they're out of cover then they can be picked off by the units that don't benefit from CT. Remember that CT can only be used by infantry, bikes and dreads. Tanks don't have the bonus.
So you're opponent basically has a choice - stay in cover, and get shot at by infantry with special / heavy weapons, or leave cover and get shot at by vehicles.

Its actually more useful than you'd think in a practical situation.

The big thing about it is that it has no down side.

out of cover what ever you are doing whatever ap you had

in cover woop woop effectivly -1 ap.

I'm just happy to see Iron Hands having a nice option after being pretty much absent from the Index.

The Salamanders Chapter Tactic is probably the strongest. Getting rid of your low value outliers while keeping your high value ones is always good. Wierdly, the chapter with all the flamethrowers is the one that got tohit fixing..

Ultramarines or Salamanders, with Imperial Fists behind.

Raven Guard looks nasty until you realise that CC units don't care, ergo, it is countered.

The other three are always on. White Scars would have been up there too but an extra 2" isn't game breaking for mobility.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Ultramarines or Salamanders, with Imperial Fists behind.

Raven Guard looks nasty until you realise that CC units don't care, ergo, it is countered.

The other three are always on. White Scars would have been up there too but an extra 2" isn't game breaking for mobility.

They also get leaving and charging.

I think everything is equal except Iron Hands, which is honestly pretty damn weak.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I'm just happy to see Iron Hands having a nice option after being pretty much absent from the Index.

The Salamanders Chapter Tactic is probably the strongest. Getting rid of your low value outliers while keeping your high value ones is always good. Wierdly, the chapter with all the flamethrowers is the one that got tohit fixing..

On the one hand I was glad to see salamanders got something fluffy and more widely applicable than a flamer and melta bonus would be. On the other hand, it is odd it doesn't work with flame weapons as well as others. Then again, how many units will be firing nothing but flame weapons in a given turn?

Both Salamanders and RG are insanely good.

I ended up voting RG, though the Salamader one is insanely good as well. One thing that makes the Sally tactic a little bit less awesome than it first seems, is that marine characters already have powerful reroll bubbles, so if you are good at utilising those you can achieve almost the same effect.

This is actually the reason I predicted that no chapter tactic would give to hit or to wound rerolls; it seems as I was wrong. I'm actually a bit disappointed that they did this, as I liked non-psychic characteers offering something useful for once.

 Desubot wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Ultramarines or Salamanders, with Imperial Fists behind.

Raven Guard looks nasty until you realise that CC units don't care, ergo, it is countered.

The other three are always on. White Scars would have been up there too but an extra 2" isn't game breaking for mobility.

They also get leaving and charging.

I think the UM one is a tad better for that.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Ultramarines or Salamanders, with Imperial Fists behind.

Raven Guard looks nasty until you realise that CC units don't care, ergo, it is countered.

The other three are always on. White Scars would have been up there too but an extra 2" isn't game breaking for mobility.

They also get leaving and charging.

I think the UM one is a tad better for that.

It depends on the build

an assault squad wont have nearly the oomph from shooting if UM but will be way better if it was WS

sure you can aruge that shooting is far better this edition but if you are running WS you are running them with a purpose.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Ultramarines or Salamanders, with Imperial Fists behind.

Raven Guard looks nasty until you realise that CC units don't care, ergo, it is countered.

The other three are always on. White Scars would have been up there too but an extra 2" isn't game breaking for mobility.

one thing about ravenguard as well is that standard marines won't be able to get in double tap range, and Primaris will have a pretty small window for it.