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I was sure ive seen this discussed around here but could find it.

1. Can a character give an order to another character (assuming it has the same REGIMENT keyword)? They DO have the INFANTRY keyword so I guess this is okay?

2. Can a character give an order to itself? I assume it cannot but the rules doesnt prohibit this (afaik).


Makes for kind of a funny though how two officers shouts commands to each other, and even more so shouting them to themselves!

Soulless wrote:
I was sure ive seen this discussed around here but could find it.

1. Can a character give an order to another character (assuming it has the same REGIMENT keyword)? They DO have the INFANTRY keyword so I guess this is okay?

2. Can a character give an order to itself? I assume it cannot but the rules doesnt prohibit this (afaik).


Makes for kind of a funny though how two officers shouts commands to each other, and even more so shouting them to themselves!

Yes and Yes. Tank Commanders can't issue orders to LEMAN RUSS Characters though, while Pask can order himself and LEMAN RUSS characters.

Most of the time it's a waste to use an order on a single model since it won't affect their bodyguard or other nearby guys.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Soulless wrote:
I was sure ive seen this discussed around here but could find it.

1. Can a character give an order to another character (assuming it has the same REGIMENT keyword)? They DO have the INFANTRY keyword so I guess this is okay?

2. Can a character give an order to itself? I assume it cannot but the rules doesnt prohibit this (afaik).


Makes for kind of a funny though how two officers shouts commands to each other, and even more so shouting them to themselves!

Yes and Yes. Tank Commanders can't issue orders to LEMAN RUSS Characters though, while Pask can order himself and LEMAN RUSS characters.

Most of the time it's a waste to use an order on a single model since it won't affect their bodyguard or other nearby guys.

Thanks.
But why would a Tank Commander not be able to give orders to a LEMAN RUSS Character when all its asking for is LEMAN RUSS and REGIMENT?
And what is the difference, if so, between a regular Tank Commander and Pask, aside from Pask being forced to have the CADIAN regiment?

Check the order rules on the Tank Commander. It's very explicit.

Where do the (non-tank) Officer rules allow self-ordering, please? I don't read it that way.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Where do the (non-tank) Officer rules allow self-ordering, please? I don't read it that way.

Read the rules for aura abilities in the rulebook (p 179, sidebar).

An officer is an INFANTRY unit within 6" of himself and therefore is a valid target for an order.

Mulletdude wrote:Check the order rules on the Tank Commander. It's very explicit.

Aaaaaah, yes....Stupid me

JohnnyHell wrote:Where do the (non-tank) Officer rules allow self-ordering, please? I don't read it that way.

The thing is, the rules doesnt say you cannot. They simply say to "pick a target unit". The chosen unit must have the INFANTRY keyword and be from the same regiment and be within 6".
The ordering unit itself is of the same regiment, has the INFANTRY keyword and is within 6" of itself. So it fulfills all requirements to issue an order to itself, according to the rules as written.

I dont think it should be allowed but as far as I can interpret the rules it really is.

Can't Pask not order himself, because his specifically allows him to order OTHER tank commanders.

 Longshadow7 wrote:
Can't Pask not order himself, because his specifically allows him to order OTHER tank commanders.

It's a note clarifying that he can order other characters, but the thing that actually allows him to order characters including himself is the fact that his version of Tank Orders does not prohibit his ordering of characters, compared to the Tank Commander version of Tank Orders, which does.

 yakface wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Where do the (non-tank) Officer rules allow self-ordering, please? I don't read it that way.

Read the rules for aura abilities in the rulebook (p 179, sidebar).

An officer is an INFANTRY unit within 6" of himself and therefore is a valid target for an order.

The rest of the rules under Orders are colloquial wording for 'pick someone else'. And targeting one unit is not an aura ability (that affects all units within a radius). I'm still not seeing the justification. The text under orders is clearly describing an Officer ordering the units under their command, not themselves.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 yakface wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Where do the (non-tank) Officer rules allow self-ordering, please? I don't read it that way.

Read the rules for aura abilities in the rulebook (p 179, sidebar).

An officer is an INFANTRY unit within 6" of himself and therefore is a valid target for an order.

The rest of the rules under Orders are colloquial wording for 'pick someone else'. And targeting one unit is not an aura ability (that affects all units within a radius). I'm still not seeing the justification. The text under orders is clearly describing an Officer ordering the units under their command, not themselves.

If it were "clearly" doing so, why would it say the exact opposite.

Please answer the following two statements with a yes or no answer:
1. Orders may only be issued to INFANTRY units within 6" of this unit that have the same <REGIMENT> keyword as this unit.
2. A Company Commander is a unit with the INFANTRY keyword, the same <REGIMENT> keyword as itself and is within 6" of itself, as per the rules on pg. 179 of the rulebook.

I believe you will find the answer to both is yes. If the rule said "another INFANTRY unit", then you would have some basis to think they can't order themselves, but it doesn't, so you don't. If you couldn't by default, then Tank Commanders wouldn't need the exception.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 yakface wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Where do the (non-tank) Officer rules allow self-ordering, please? I don't read it that way.

Read the rules for aura abilities in the rulebook (p 179, sidebar).

An officer is an INFANTRY unit within 6" of himself and therefore is a valid target for an order.

The rest of the rules under Orders are colloquial wording for 'pick someone else'. And targeting one unit is not an aura ability (that affects all units within a radius). I'm still not seeing the justification. The text under orders is clearly describing an Officer ordering the units under their command, not themselves.

where exactly does it say "pick someone else" though? In my German Index it's not saying anything of the like. All it says is that you may only order an INFANTRY unit with the same <regiment> keyword that's within 6 inches. you pick a target unit and let it perform an order, nothing about excluding itself. A commander is within 6 inches of itself, it has the same <regiment> keyword as itself and its an INFANTRY unit. As long as the commander hasn't already received an order, those are the requirements he has to meet. Nothing else.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 yakface wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Where do the (non-tank) Officer rules allow self-ordering, please? I don't read it that way.

Read the rules for aura abilities in the rulebook (p 179, sidebar).

An officer is an INFANTRY unit within 6" of himself and therefore is a valid target for an order.

The rest of the rules under Orders are colloquial wording for 'pick someone else'. And targeting one unit is not an aura ability (that affects all units within a radius). I'm still not seeing the justification. The text under orders is clearly describing an Officer ordering the units under their command, not themselves.

Its possible that what you describe is its intention but all rules regarding it right now allow for it.
In all other situations I know of where something does not apply to the unit itself it is clearly stated one way or another.

Ok, just to preface for the benefit of some regular posters: be polite. I'm discussing a point politely. The antagonistic approach of some posts is unwelcome. Discuss politely or just put the keyboard away for a bit and consider your tone. It's unhelpful.

Anyway.

This sentence, the first of the Orders rules:

"This unit may issue one order per turn to the soldiers under their command at the start of their Shooting phase."

It's not an aura (you pick a unit, not affect all in a range). Not saying RAW shenanigans doesn't allow self-ordering but it is very much not the intent, as this sentence describes.

So if you take that line at face value your warlord Company Commander may order any other officer while any other company commander may order any lower ranked officer. How do we know which lower ranked officer is assigned to which Company? And if you have two command squads you'll have to know which company commander they belong to as they won't be soldiers under someone else's command, right?

I think we shouldn't over complicate this just to prevent officers from receiving orders.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Ok, just to preface for the benefit of some regular posters: be polite. I'm discussing a point politely. The antagonistic approach of some posts is unwelcome. Discuss politely or just put the keyboard away for a bit and consider your tone. It's unhelpful.

Anyway.

This sentence, the first of the Orders rules:

"This unit may issue one order per turn to the soldiers under their command at the start of their Shooting phase."

It's not an aura (you pick a unit, not affect all in a range). Not saying RAW shenanigans doesn't allow self-ordering but it is very much not the intent, as this sentence describes.

I strongly disagree that there's any real reason to think that RAI doesn't allow for orders to be issued to characters.

First, obviously this sentence is at least partially fluff -- there's no rules meaning to this idea of "soldiers" being under the command of other units. And then we immediately get a rule that very obviously allows for the targeting of other officers, even higher-ranking officers, and is also easily seen to allow targeting of the officer issuing the order himself. Surely the obvious interpretation of this is not that the rules writer is an idiot but rather that the writer decided to keep the rule simple at the cost of some "realism".

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Ok, just to preface for the benefit of some regular posters: be polite. I'm discussing a point politely. The antagonistic approach of some posts is unwelcome. Discuss politely or just put the keyboard away for a bit and consider your tone. It's unhelpful.

Anyway.

This sentence, the first of the Orders rules:

"This unit may issue one order per turn to the soldiers under their command at the start of their Shooting phase."

It's not an aura (you pick a unit, not affect all in a range). Not saying RAW shenanigans doesn't allow self-ordering but it is very much not the intent, as this sentence describes.

I agree that the intention, most likely, is for these units to issue orders to OTHER units.
But I don't think the intention is to follow some sort of rank and authority ladder to determine who can issue orders to who. That sentence is a fluffy description and not a rule, else we must ask what units are considered "soldiers" since there is no such keyword.
The only rules governing VOICE is range and keywords, both of which the officer itself fulfils.

It will likely change to something like "pick another unit", and personally I hope it does since I don't want my officers talking to themselves, but right now no one has offered any valid reason why the rules wouldn't allow for it.

Soulless wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Ok, just to preface for the benefit of some regular posters: be polite. I'm discussing a point politely. The antagonistic approach of some posts is unwelcome. Discuss politely or just put the keyboard away for a bit and consider your tone. It's unhelpful.

Anyway.

This sentence, the first of the Orders rules:

"This unit may issue one order per turn to the soldiers under their command at the start of their Shooting phase."

It's not an aura (you pick a unit, not affect all in a range). Not saying RAW shenanigans doesn't allow self-ordering but it is very much not the intent, as this sentence describes.

I agree that the intention, most likely, is for these units to issue orders to OTHER units.
But I don't think the intention is to follow some sort of rank and authority ladder to determine who can issue orders to who. That sentence is a fluffy description and not a rule, else we must ask what units are considered "soldiers" since there is no such keyword.
The only rules governing VOICE is range and keywords, both of which the officer itself fulfils.

It will likely change to something like "pick another unit", and personally I hope it does since I don't want my officers talking to themselves, but right now no one has offered any valid reason why the rules wouldn't allow for it.

I expect that it won't change as Command Squads - including the officer - were able to take orders in previous editions. And it would be inconsistent that an AM officer is unable to benefit from his own presence, but a SM officer is able to benefit from his own presence. Technicalities like "one is an aura, the other one isn't" don't matter fluffwise, the Captain doesn't give off some magic aura - its his ordering his guys around that's represented by the aura.

And rules-wise there's precedence for them saying "yeah, we actually meant what we wrote there, a source of something is able to benefit from the thing it does just like anything else, unless we specifically said otherwise"

nekooni wrote:

Soulless wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Ok, just to preface for the benefit of some regular posters: be polite. I'm discussing a point politely. The antagonistic approach of some posts is unwelcome. Discuss politely or just put the keyboard away for a bit and consider your tone. It's unhelpful.

Anyway.

This sentence, the first of the Orders rules:

"This unit may issue one order per turn to the soldiers under their command at the start of their Shooting phase."

It's not an aura (you pick a unit, not affect all in a range). Not saying RAW shenanigans doesn't allow self-ordering but it is very much not the intent, as this sentence describes.

I agree that the intention, most likely, is for these units to issue orders to OTHER units.
But I don't think the intention is to follow some sort of rank and authority ladder to determine who can issue orders to who. That sentence is a fluffy description and not a rule, else we must ask what units are considered "soldiers" since there is no such keyword.
The only rules governing VOICE is range and keywords, both of which the officer itself fulfils.

It will likely change to something like "pick another unit", and personally I hope it does since I don't want my officers talking to themselves, but right now no one has offered any valid reason why the rules wouldn't allow for it.

I expect that it won't change as Command Squads - including the officer - were able to take orders in previous editions. And it would be inconsistent that an AM officer is unable to benefit from his own presence, but a SM officer is able to benefit from his own presence. Technicalities like "one is an aura, the other one isn't" don't matter fluffwise, the Captain doesn't give off some magic aura - its his ordering his guys around that's represented by the aura.

And rules-wise there's precedence for them saying "yeah, we actually meant what we wrote there, a source of something is able to benefit from the thing it does just like anything else, unless we specifically said otherwise"

Taking orders yeah but could they give orders to themselves?

Soulless wrote:
Taking orders yeah but could they give orders to themselves?

It simply doesn't matter? Might as well say "You could only hit flyers on 6's last edition, so ignore the rules about them being -1 to hit, it's only 6s."

Previous edition has no bearing on the current. This is doubly true since it's a total reworking from the ground up ala 2nd to 3rd change rather than the incremental changes of 3rd though 7th.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Soulless wrote:
Taking orders yeah but could they give orders to themselves?

It simply doesn't matter? Might as well say "You could only hit flyers on 6's last edition, so ignore the rules about them being -1 to hit, it's only 6s."

Previous edition has no bearing on the current. This is doubly true since it's a total reworking from the ground up ala 2nd to 3rd change rather than the incremental changes of 3rd though 7th.

I know it doesnt matter, I never said it did. The thread has nothing to do with previous editions.
I was only responding to the notion that command squads can receive orders (which was never in question) asking if they also could give orders to themselves, which IS the question here.

Soulless wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Soulless wrote:
Taking orders yeah but could they give orders to themselves?

It simply doesn't matter? Might as well say "You could only hit flyers on 6's last edition, so ignore the rules about them being -1 to hit, it's only 6s."

Previous edition has no bearing on the current. This is doubly true since it's a total reworking from the ground up ala 2nd to 3rd change rather than the incremental changes of 3rd though 7th.

I know it doesnt matter, I never said it did. The thread has nothing to do with previous editions.
I was only responding to the notion that command squads can receive orders (which was never in question) asking if they also could give orders to themselves, which IS the question here.

I wasn't bringing it up for rules reasons, but for the fluff and for how likely I think a rules change for the current edition is. I don't think it's a mistake that they allow it. Also see the other stuff I wrote about AM and SM officers.
And yes, Command Squads could order themself - the Company Commander was part of that unit in 7th.

nekooni wrote:

Soulless wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Soulless wrote:
Taking orders yeah but could they give orders to themselves?

It simply doesn't matter? Might as well say "You could only hit flyers on 6's last edition, so ignore the rules about them being -1 to hit, it's only 6s."

Previous edition has no bearing on the current. This is doubly true since it's a total reworking from the ground up ala 2nd to 3rd change rather than the incremental changes of 3rd though 7th.

I know it doesnt matter, I never said it did. The thread has nothing to do with previous editions.
I was only responding to the notion that command squads can receive orders (which was never in question) asking if they also could give orders to themselves, which IS the question here.

I wasn't bringing it up for rules reasons, but for the fluff and for how likely I think a rules change for the current edition is. I don't think it's a mistake that they allow it. Also see the other stuff I wrote about AM and SM officers.
And yes, Command Squads could order themself - the Company Commander was part of that unit in 7th.

Well then I agree that its likely intentional that officers can give orders to themselves!
Even if this is a completely new edition its still a good reason to expect units to work in a similar fashion from one ed to another, though it may not always be so.

In any case, an FAQ will eventually settle the discussion or possibly the AM Codex, when it arrives.

New FAQ states:

Q: Can a Tank Commander or Knight Commander Pask issue a Tank Order to themselves?
A: No.

Regular Commanders can order themselves just fine.

I wish this had been errata.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
New FAQ states:

Q: Can a Tank Commander or Knight Commander Pask issue a Tank Order to themselves?
A: No.

Regular Commanders can order themselves just fine.

I wish this had been errata.

Let's see if the regular Officers Q comes up in a future Q&A!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
New FAQ states:

Q: Can a Tank Commander or Knight Commander Pask issue a Tank Order to themselves?
A: No.

Regular Commanders can order themselves just fine.

I wish this had been errata.

That does not say that regular officers can order themselves. It only says that Tank Commanders cannot.

 Happyjew wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
New FAQ states:

Q: Can a Tank Commander or Knight Commander Pask issue a Tank Order to themselves?
A: No.

Regular Commanders can order themselves just fine.

I wish this had been errata.

That does not say that regular officers can order themselves. It only says that Tank Commanders cannot.

His point is that they didnt change normal commanders, so those are still able to order themself and each other.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Soulless wrote:
I was sure ive seen this discussed around here but could find it.

1. Can a character give an order to another character (assuming it has the same REGIMENT keyword)? They DO have the INFANTRY keyword so I guess this is okay?

2. Can a character give an order to itself? I assume it cannot but the rules doesnt prohibit this (afaik).


Makes for kind of a funny though how two officers shouts commands to each other, and even more so shouting them to themselves!

Yes and Yes. Tank Commanders can't issue orders to LEMAN RUSS Characters though, while Pask can order himself and LEMAN RUSS characters.

Most of the time it's a waste to use an order on a single model since it won't affect their bodyguard or other nearby guys.

got faq'ed

I was debating with a fellow I.G. player about this. RAW seems to be in favor of officers being able issue an order to himself.

For some reason people think "because it is stupid and unrealistic to give yourself an order" is an adequate argument to prove your point.

People who are against it also fall back on the "it's not really an aura ability because doesn't affect everyone within 6 inches."

I don't understand why people don't consider this an aura ability. Pg 179 describes a Aura Abilities as "abilities that affect certain models within a given range." Voice of Command does indeed affect certain models within a given range, and can therefore be considered an Aura Ability. Note that it says CERTAIN models, not ALL models. The fact that there are restrictions on the number of models affected within a certain range does not disqualify orders in any way.

People are probably wondering "why are people making a big deal about this?" Because it's the difference between:
Your Officer rerolling 1s when he overheats his plasmapistol
Your Officer keeping up with the troops he's commanding
Your Officer getting a bonus round of combat attacks in the shooting phase with that power weapon (STRAKEN anyone?)

The only order that an officer never benefits from is FRFSRF

Now it is stunning to me that a fellow Guard player got so hot under the collar, but I can only imagine how Chaos/Xenos players could potentially get. Are other people making a mountain out of a molehill here, or am I being THAT GUY by making the most of RAW?

If only GW could be trusted with their rules writing. They paid so much attention to Pask and Tank Commanders and have not written the normal officers or FAQd them the same way. If they could be trusted then I'd say we're good to go.