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Played my first game as Necrons last night and this question came up. RP are worded as bringing back "slain" models, but models that have run away or are lost to morale tests are not worded as being slain, just running off the battlefield or whatever.

Do you continue to take RP's for all models with the rule or just the ones that are killed as a result of shooting, melee, or psychic attacks?

RP cannot bring back models lost to Morale because those models are specifically not "slain", they flee.

This was discussed here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/731474.page

RAW, I think it's fair to say that the distinctions between "fled", "slain", and "destroyed" are unclear. Even not counting morale losses, how do we actually know how many Necron Warriors in a unit have been slain? The most common way for the unit to lose models is for them to be reduced to 0 wounds, but the rules only tell us that in this case the model is "slain or destroyed". Well, which is it?

RAI, it seems obvious that "fled" models are supposed to count as "slain" and "destroyed". For example, if "fled" is not "destroyed" then you don't get a kill point for a unit which has had at least one model flee, since the unit was not completely destroyed. As I noted in that earlier thread, if "fled" is not "slain" then a Guard player can deny his opponent the Slay the Warlord VP in the following way:

1. Take conscripts and a commissar.
2. Nominate one of the conscripts to be your Warlord.
3. Remove the regular conscripts first when the unit takes losses.
4. Fail morale and have the commissar "execute" your Warlord.
5. Your Warlord fled as a result of a failed morale test and therefore was never slain.

And of course it would just be silly for GW to FAQ this in any way except the one that lets you figure out how many RP rolls to take by subtracting the number of models in the unit from its starting size.

Yes. You can return any models that are destroyed by running away.

Fragile wrote:
Yes. You can return any models that are destroyed by running away.

This is not true.

At the very best it is unclear.

While it is a bit unclear, I think it would be fair to include models that have fled as a result of morale tests in RP rolls.

A lot depends on just how much synonyms can be created and used by the terminology and how far someone's willing to stretch the connections made by them.

If you want to take it as literally as possible, RP specifies that is is only for the "slain" models. But if one is willing to synonymize it with "remove from play", then RP would work for any method of model having been removed from the board.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
RP cannot bring back models lost to Morale because those models are specifically not "slain", they flee.

This is not true.

At the very best it is unclear.

Idk.

If my Necron squad has less models then what it started with then i am going to roll some dice to see how many get back up.

To try an book keep how many were "slain" "ran away" "nuked from orbit" "shot" "stabbed" or otherwise removed from the squad by 5th editions jaws of the wolf. Is nonsense.

Less models in squad roll that many dice 5+ add the model back. I think the KISS method is best.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
Idk.

If my Necron squad has less models then what it started with then i am going to roll some dice to see how many get back up.

To try an book keep how many were "slain" "ran away" "nuked from orbit" "shot" "stabbed" or otherwise removed from the squad by 5th editions jaws of the wolf. Is nonsense.

Less models in squad roll that many dice 5+ add the model back. I think the KISS method is best.

This. I usually ask my Necron opponent what they think, and I go with their interpretation. I just don't care enough to have an argument in a casual setting. I'll ask a TO in a tournament and live with the ruling.

But I believe RAI that the Necrons come back from morale losses, so i'm totally fine with that approach.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
Idk.

If my Necron squad has less models then what it started with then i am going to roll some dice to see how many get back up.

To try an book keep how many were "slain" "ran away" "nuked from orbit" "shot" "stabbed" or otherwise removed from the squad by 5th editions jaws of the wolf. Is nonsense.

Less models in squad roll that many dice 5+ add the model back. I think the KISS method is best.

Well, "nuked from orbit", "shot", and "stabbed", would all fall under the "slain" moniker as those involve ways of Resolving Attacks which leads to the model being "slain". So those are not fair comparisons with "ran away" which does not "slay" the model, but just "remove it from play".

Even more importantly, at no point is the model ever actually stated to be removed from the squad, just from play.

But that is just taking the pure literal interpretation of the rule. Fortunately, unlike a computer program which requires a person with appropriate knowledge to modify the game, tabletop games can be modified to suit the game organizers on the fly. If the Necron player wants the challenge of keeping track of how a model is RP'd and only bringing back those that are slain, more power to them, but as you are saying, it is a lot easier to treat all RFP as "slain" and vice versa.

I would have thought RAI would be that downed necrons are placed on their side until they can make their RP roll, and that models that are removed from play are simply removed from play.

As for victory points the unit is still tabled.

 Overheal wrote:
I would have thought RAI would be that downed necrons are placed on their side until they can make their RP roll, and that models that are removed from play are simply removed from play.

As for victory points the unit is still tabled.

What do you do with the ones that fail their RP roll?

Dionysodorus wrote:

What do you do with the ones that fail their RP roll?

Roll for them at the start of your next turn if their unit isn't wiped out by then.

Warfrog wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

What do you do with the ones that fail their RP roll?

Roll for them at the start of your next turn if their unit isn't wiped out by then.

Yes, duh, but I want to know if Overheal wants me to drag them around with the unit for the rest of the game.

They stopped asking us to tip our models over since third edition as they were prone to rolling around on uneven surfaces which could damage them. Stopped trying to keep tracking markers on the board at all after 5th, because units that get too close to each other wind up getting them mixed up and you had to constantly micromanage them out of the way of combats.

There's a recurring theme in threads like these, and that's of people trying to apply overly complex rules stipulations from older editions that just don't exist anymore. There is no more separately tracked way to kill a model, no instant death, no jaws of the wolf, no slain by a phase blade, no D weapons, nothing. Fleeing from morale and slain/destroyed by being reduced to 0 wounds both say 'and removed from play' which going by the common vernacular means taking them off the table and are used synonymously. otherwise it breaks rp, it breaks victory points in mission, it breaks other resurrection functions like apothecaries, it breaks soul burst, it breaks astartes banners, it breaks spirit of the martyr, it's not how it's played. You wouldn't even try to ask space marines and sisters to start tipping their dead over separately from their removed by fleeing models because it's ridiculous.

Leave 'we'll be back' where everyone else left it. In 2002.

Considering RP works on models turned to pox walkers, I am pretty sure it works on morale losses as well.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Yes. You can return any models that are destroyed by running away.

This is not true.

At the very best it is unclear.

It is only unclear to you since you are trying to legalize the wording rather than just read the rule. There is no functional game difference between destroyed from fleeing and destroyed from being reduced to zero wounds. Both cause a remove from play. It is doubly clear after the Poxwalker FAQ allowing Necrons that were turned into Poxwalkers to reanimate.

Now, that really make me wonder...

What if the ability wasn't called "Reanimation Protocols", but "I'll Be Back" instead? And the wording wouldn't have included "slain" but simply mention that a Necron unit with this ability that has less than it's starting number of models needs to make a roll for every model that was taken off the table previously?

It would mean GW wrote a rule clearly for once and qualify as a sign of the impending Apocalypse?

Losses due to moral are an abstract.

Its not necessarily that they ran away. They could have broken ranks and been picked off by stray fire. They could have panicked and ran into a land mine.

There is no mechanical state that is "fled". Losses due to moral are exactly the same as losses due to anything else. This should be especially considered for necron who's warriors and immortals cannot run because their slave protocols don't allow them to. But getting sloppy and pursuing something alone instead of following a stronger tactic with the unit and getting picked off because of it makes perfect sense.

Dionysodorus wrote:
This was discussed here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/731474.page

RAW, I think it's fair to say that the distinctions between "fled", "slain", and "destroyed" are unclear. Even not counting morale losses, how do we actually know how many Necron Warriors in a unit have been slain? The most common way for the unit to lose models is for them to be reduced to 0 wounds, but the rules only tell us that in this case the model is "slain or destroyed". Well, which is it?

RAI, it seems obvious that "fled" models are supposed to count as "slain" and "destroyed". For example, if "fled" is not "destroyed" then you don't get a kill point for a unit which has had at least one model flee, since the unit was not completely destroyed. As I noted in that earlier thread, if "fled" is not "slain" then a Guard player can deny his opponent the Slay the Warlord VP in the following way:

1. Take conscripts and a commissar.
2. Nominate one of the conscripts to be your Warlord.
3. Remove the regular conscripts first when the unit takes losses.
4. Fail morale and have the commissar "execute" your Warlord.
5. Your Warlord fled as a result of a failed morale test and therefore was never slain.

And of course it would just be silly for GW to FAQ this in any way except the one that lets you figure out how many RP rolls to take by subtracting the number of models in the unit from its starting size.

This!!! ^ ^ ^

One interpretation (saying that morale losses count as slain models) means the game works fine and nothing breaks down. The other interpretation (saying that morale losses are not slain models) creates huge RAW issues, several of which are pointed out in the quoted post above.

Whenever you have such a situation, there is only really ever one way to play (until GW decides to go crazy and rule otherwise), and that is to play the way that doesn't break the game.

Minor question. Which do you roll for first? RP or morale test ?

 loki old fart wrote:
Minor question. Which do you roll for first? RP or morale test ?

That part is clear. Morale tests are performed in the Morale Phase (the last phase of the turn) while Reanimation Protocols occur "... at the beginning of your turn".

Fragile wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Yes. You can return any models that are destroyed by running away.

This is not true.

At the very best it is unclear.

It is only unclear to you since you are trying to legalize the wording rather than just read the rule. There is no functional game difference between destroyed from fleeing and destroyed from being reduced to zero wounds. Both cause a remove from play. It is doubly clear after the Poxwalker FAQ allowing Necrons that were turned into Poxwalkers to reanimate.

The end result may be the same but that doesn't make the what puts them there the same.

Here's what it says in the Primer on Inflict Damage:

If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play.

So being "removed from play" happens at the same time that the model is "slain".

Here's what the Morale Phase says:

For each point that the test is failed by, one model in that unit must flee and is removed from play.

And here we have "flee" associated with "removed from play" in the same manner.

So, the model is "removed from play", but they arrive at it through different means, and those different means are the crux of this discussion. It may not be what they intended, but they didn't really go out of their way to connect the paths before these points, either.

I think by rules they get to reanimate guys who fled.

I do find it incredibly silly that they can though.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
I think by rules they get to reanimate guys who fled.

Can you point at the rules that state this connection?

 Ghaz wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
Minor question. Which do you roll for first? RP or morale test ?

That part is clear. Morale tests are performed in the Morale Phase (the last phase of the turn) while Reanimation Protocols occur "... at the beginning of your turn".

Well that's my point it would work better the other way round. If RP was done first, there wouldn't be this discussion. Bad rules writing on GWs part. If your RP role was successful you might not lose any models to a morale check.

 loki old fart wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
Minor question. Which do you roll for first? RP or morale test ?

That part is clear. Morale tests are performed in the Morale Phase (the last phase of the turn) while Reanimation Protocols occur "... at the beginning of your turn".

Well that's my point it would work better the other way round. If RP was done first, there wouldn't be this discussion. Bad rules writing on GWs part. If your RP role was successful you might not lose any models to a morale check.

So exactly why is that bad rules writing on GW's part? Seems to me its good rules writing on GW's part by not making Necrons practically immune to morale tests.

Well per the new FAQ update models removed by Morale do not get to reanimate

Q: Can Necrons that have fled the battlefield return using Reanimation Protocols?

A: No. This ability only allows models that were slain to return, not models that have fled.
You may find it useful to place Necron models that flee to one side as a reminder that they cannot return using their Reanimation Protocols ability