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How many do you think they could take down before all 18 are eventually killed (pre-heresy)

just them vs. regular astartes nothing else

All 18? Versus regular Astartes in Power Armour with a Boltgun? None of the Astartes are named characters like Abaddon, Kharn, Luther, etc.?

Say goodbye to the Adeptus Astartes then. I'm pretty sure Magnus could quite easily one man army them all anyway.

The Primarchs are main characters. The Space Marines are just power-armoured mooks. That means the Primarchs can take down any number of Space Marines that you can think of.

If the Primarchs had their armour, I do not think the Astartes would be able to really harm them.

It'd be a 1000 guys with kitchen knives vs a modern MBT. Numbers can only do so much.

 Ashiraya wrote:
If the Primarchs had their armour, I do not think the Astartes would be able to really harm them.

It'd be a 1000 guys with kitchen knives vs a modern MBT. Numbers can only do so much.

Oh but Kitchen Knives wound MBTs on 6s.

I'm sure eventually the mountain of powered armored corpses would be sufficient to cause a space marine blackhole.

Take the number that it allegedly took to kill Dorn.

Multiply that by 18.

Subtract %5 from that sum due to Alpharius 'brilliantly' betraying the others (being the first primary to fall when Dorn inevitably kills him.)

Give or take %2 to account for drift, whether Kahn has enough room to bike about, that sort of thing.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Take the number that it allegedly took to kill Dorn.

Multiply that by 18.

Subtract %5 from that sum due to Alpharius 'brilliantly' betraying the others (being the first primary to fall when Dorn inevitably kills him.)

Give or take %2 to account for drift, whether Kahn has enough room to bike about, that sort of thing.

What's the skue do to the fact that Magnus could use magic to hold back an entire army whilst beating the gak out of Leman Russ? (This isn't talking about the burning of Prospero, this is just Magnus really wanting to beat the gak out of a puppy)

 mrhappyface wrote:

What's the skue do to the fact that Magnus could use magic to hold back an entire army whilst beating the gak out of Leman Russ? (This isn't talking about the burning of Prospero, this is just Magnus really wanting to beat the gak out of a puppy)

Still well within that %2 of wiggle room.

You may say I'm underestimating Magnus' psychic prowess. I say you're underestimating Kahn's bike prowess.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Still well within that %2 of wiggle room.

You may say I'm underestimating Magnus' psychic prowess. I say you're underestimating Kahn's bike prowess.

I think your underestimating Magnus' power to make room far Kahn to do his bike thing. Or even Magnus' power to bitch slap Kahn then fly over the battle field on Kahn's bike.

If these marines can have lascannons and other such weapons and engage at long range, it shouldn't take that many of them.

 Crimson wrote:
If these marines can have lascannons and other such weapons and engage at long range, it shouldn't take that many of them.

OP is a bit vague but I interpret 'regular marine and nothing else' to simply mean tactical marines.

It's true that lascannons would greatly help.

It also varies depending on the battlefield (is it an indoors area or a flat open field?) and whether things like the Khan's bike are permitted.

This thread would be better if you asked how many marines it would take to beat all the primarchs in a game of american football assuming the rules were bent to give the marines enough guys on the field to even have a chance of a touch down. Or for even more fun, how many guardsmen it would take to do the same thing.

 Crimson wrote:
If these marines can have lascannons and other such weapons and engage at long range, it shouldn't take that many of them.

IF the primarchs were stuck planet side, feasibly the regular spacemarines could take zero losses if they had access to the right weapons... say orbital bombardment or planet killer.

Then again, the primarchs would probably be protagonist characters so they'd find a way to cheat, even if it means building a ship or teleporter from scratch or using magic powers, etc to escape.

Magnus may have tore out one of Russ' hearts, but he also got his spine broken.

I'm pretty sure they'd kill each other until a few remained, while smacking about random astartes like they were jokes.

 Melissia wrote:
Magnus may have tore out one of Russ' hearts, but he also got his spine broken.

I'm pretty sure they'd kill each other until a few remained, while smacking about random astartes like they were jokes.

Hah! They all kill each other, leaving a victorious Konrad Curze in a blood stained sweater, who then allows himself to be killed by a passing child to prove himself right all along!

Quite simple really. How many Boltgun shots would it take to kill all of the Primarchs? You can argue all day about fluff, but it's subject to so much BS like plot armour that it rarely gets anywhere.

To a certain degree (ignoring obviously unbalanced models), the crunch is king.

So, how many BS4 S4 Bolter shots would it take to kill all of the Primarchs? Or whatever it is these days. Would probably be easier with the 8th to-wound chart.

Actually, the answer is really easy. Even if the entire universe from edge to edge was filled with Space Marines, they would not be enough to kill all 18 Primarchs. They would kill 17, but Vulkan is a perpetual and therefore simply can not be killed.

If they aren't wearing their helmets - a single marine could easily kill a primarch.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Actually, the answer is really easy. Even if the entire universe from edge to edge was filled with Space Marines, they would not be enough to kill all 18 Primarchs. They would kill 17, but Vulkan is a perpetual and therefore simply can not be killed.

I wonder if the 18 Primarchs would be able to take Schindelgheist IV alone...

nareik wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Magnus may have tore out one of Russ' hearts, but he also got his spine broken.

I'm pretty sure they'd kill each other until a few remained, while smacking about random astartes like they were jokes.

Hah! They all kill each other, leaving a victorious Konrad Curze in a blood stained sweater, who then allows himself to be killed by a passing child to prove himself right all along!

If Curze could subdue an entire planet by being scary space batman, he could best a group of 17 demigods with daddy issues or all the regular astartes just as easily.

There are as many elves as the plot demands.

In other words, those Primarchs aren't dying unless GW wants them to die.

If we are talking about an actually organized and focused astartes force I do not think it would actually be as crazy for them to wipe out the primarchs as people think. All except Magnus are constrained to what they can do physically and no matter how good you are you can only deal with so many people at once.

Are these astartes properly armed? I mean lets be real here a single well placed lascannon shot would at least seriously injure a primarch. Are these marines calling in sniper squads? Dreadnoughts? Librarians? Like a full force marine detachment sent to kill these guys would get it done. How many marines do I think it would take?

Probably a thousand assuming they are well equipped. The only Primarch that I think would really be able keep his fellows alive would be Magnus. However assuming the astartes have librarians of their own they might be able to at least slightly hinder Magnus with weight of numbers. This is all assuming this is a 1000 marines entirely devoted to taking out these primarchs and as such are prepared to do that very job.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
If we are talking about an actually organized and focused astartes force I do not think it would actually be as crazy for them to wipe out the primarchs as people think. All except Magnus are constrained to what they can do physically and no matter how good you are you can only deal with so many people at once.

Are these astartes properly armed? I mean lets be real here a single well placed lascannon shot would at least seriously injure a primarch. Are these marines calling in sniper squads? Dreadnoughts? Librarians? Like a full force marine detachment sent to kill these guys would get it done. How many marines do I think it would take?

Probably a thousand assuming they are well equipped. The only Primarch that I think would really be able keep his fellows alive would be Magnus. However assuming the astartes have librarians of their own they might be able to at least slightly hinder Magnus with weight of numbers. This is all assuming this is a 1000 marines entirely devoted to taking out these primarchs and as such are prepared to do that very job.

This. Quite frankly, I usually view the more ludicrous depictions of both Primarchs and Marines in books as propaganda at best and fanwank at worst. The only real measurable method of determining a dude's combat ability is in the crunch. Barring the obvious limitations of a game system (and some glaring balance issues), it's actually pretty useful for determining how powerful something is.

So, the only real measure is how many bolter shots it takes to kill each Primarch.

Matthammer, it takes 2848 BS4 bolter shots to statistically kill all 18 Primarchs in one volley, which is 1424 Marines. A little under one and a half Chapters. It'd be a lot less if they were armed with something other than Bolters (Meltaguns, Plasma Guns, Missile Launchers or Lascannons). It'd also be a hell of a lot less if they had more than one round of shooting, although you'd get into chicanery with IWND and casualties. I also can't remember which if any of the Primarchs have FnP...

So, lets round out the difference and say that roughly one Chapter of Marines could kill all 18 Primarchs, after roughly accounting for IWND and the killiness of Primarchs vs more rounds of shooting and special weapons for the Marines. Quantity has a quality of its own, although the Marine horde would be more expensive points-wise than the Primarchs.

Primarchs aren't one-man-armies. They're powerful, yes, but ultimately they're inspirational generals and sources for genetic material to make the actual armies. They're mortal beings, genetically engineered and with a touch of warp-magic, but within the limits of one man's talent. That man might be the Emperor, but we're well aware that he has plentiful limits.

Is GW responsible for writing this plot? Then we all know that Guilliman tells the other brothers to hold his beer and watch this as points his finger at the legions upon legions of Astartes and proceeds to dance around like an idiot all the while the other Primarchs stare in awe at his "genius" then he claps his hands and all the Astartes fall over dead. The end. That is how GW would write the story. Seriously tho it wouldn't take that many as the Primarchs aren't immortal just extremely tough Marines. Each was known for their military strategy that fit them best and using it to their advantage on the field of battle. 1000 bolt guns firing is still 1000 bolter rounds coming at you and your still taking damage.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Primarchs aren't one-man-armies. They're powerful, yes, but ultimately they're inspirational generals and sources for genetic material to make the actual armies. They're mortal beings, genetically engineered and with a touch of warp-magic, but within the limits of one man's talent. That man might be the Emperor, but we're well aware that he has plentiful limits.

Alpha-plus Psykers are though and Magnus is one.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


This. Quite frankly, I usually view the more ludicrous depictions of both Primarchs and Marines in books as propaganda at best and fanwank at worst. The only real measurable method of determining a dude's combat ability is in the crunch.

This is the background forum, not general discussion. Looks like you took a wrong turn.

If you do not want to discuss the lore then sorry, this is not the subforum for you.

LightKing wrote:
How many do you think they could take down before all 18 are eventually killed (pre-heresy)

just them vs. regular astartes nothing else

As many as needed. The primarchs has 2++ plot armor. Besides, I guess there were no such thing as astartes pre-heresy. Rowboat Smurfiman had not written the holy Space Marine Bible of Smurfiness yet.

 Xenomancers wrote:
If they aren't wearing their helmets - a single marine could easily kill a primarch.

Didn't work on Fulgrim. He took a round to the brain pan and got right back up. Wasn't even a daemon at that stage.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

Didn't work on Fulgrim. He took a round to the brain pan and got right back up. Wasn't even a daemon at that stage.

On the other hand Guilliman struggled against 10 Alpha Legion Marines when he was unarmed and unarmoured. Surviving at all was an impressive feat suggesting bolters can hurt them.

We'd either have to say that he's a weaker Primarch, Black Library is just inconsistent so we pick one or the other or a happy medium, or we go for the theory I've heard that I like which is that as creatures infused with the power of the Warp Primarchs actually get stronger or weaker depending on the situation (that one he thought he was talking to his own Legion and so was just discovering the squad had been killed whereas Fulgrim survives the sniper and other Primarchs survive or get injured by various things). So they really are like Greater Daemons of the Emperor.