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Ok, brethren of the eight-fold path, what do we do when a unit of fifty that doesn't care about morale starts marching up?

Hellforged Predator is a hoot and a half against modest hordes, but 5D6 is only going to kill a third of an IG swarm unit. This will present them with the options of trying to run past it (fine, torch them again), run away from it (fine, they're not entangling more important units), or charge it (great, kill half of them with Overwatch than eat some more). But if they do charge it, it then loses a turn of shooting whilst a Demolisher or some such moves into position. (Admittedly not a bad situation if we Fall Back and then Warptime right out of harm's way whilst Havocs finish off the blob, but this is still a horribly inefficient way to kill cannon fodder - most of its turns have now been used firing on trash.)

Seems highly satisfactory against Orks, though - it'll kill a third of a full size mob of Boyz, and if the survivors try to charge it it'll burn half of them, as long as you gave it some supporting fire they'll probably all run away at the end of the melee and leave you free to go and burn something else having already killed more than you cost. Win!

Berzerkers, maybe? Problem here is that each Conscript's Overwatch is as accurate as that of a Space Marine. Fifty troops, probably sixty shots in range, ten hits, three wounds, one failed save... not bad, but that's going to add up, as each turn they leg it and then get back in the fight. Pretty good alongside the Predator trick, though - but, again, inefficient. Still, if it gives us some charge moves, it's getting us closer, and forcing them to make decisions with their plasma.

Havocs with Missile Launchers should not be underestimated. Though they usually want better targets than Cannon fodder... still, handy to have to hand to join in with a drive to dislodge a blob off an objective.

Now, if we want to take out Commissars, or the related issue of Chaplains and rival Dark Apostles, access to Snipers is extremely limited and, if your meta is all about Power Levels, massively overcosted. However, if your buds play Points, Marauders are nicely priced for BS3, easily converted from Cultists, and if you take first turn and put them in ruins they've got a 2+ save. Probably really annoying to deal with - unless they run away, harassing fire isn't going to really affect their effectiveness, so their damage output does not decline as quickly as Scouts and Rangers.

It you're not WE/DG/EC, leaving aside enough Reinforcement Points to pop up a Disc Herald (similar cost to a number of useful units to put in your army box just in case) can get you Treason as a last resort. Get the Commissar to charge his own pet Conscripts! Once an FAQ confirms that you aren't allowed to be a pacifist when engaged in close combat with enemy units, the mountain of bayonets will be compelled to rip apart their own babysitter. Or, have him abandon them to chin an officer with his power fist. Way less reliable than two or three turns of sniping, though, unless you already brought a Lord of Change, in which case you probably already had intentions along this line.

4 Chaos Decimators with dual C-Beam Cannons and re-rolls from Abaddon the Despoiler, or 1's from a Chaos Lord.

Double Grav Flux leviathan should easily remove a 50 man blob tbh

I find flipping the table gets rid of 50-man blobs quiet effectively

I have experience versus the 50 man conscript unit:

My opponant had several Tanks/Artillery/Support vehicles and a couple of Sororitas vehicles behind a 3 man deep line of conscripts. At the start of turn two, I charged 3 5 man units of Berzerkers, a Chaos Lord and a Rhino (to soak up overwatch) into them and whiped the unit. But from this game I played I realised the real purpose of the conscripts. On his turn, two LRBTs and a Punisher slaughtered one unit and the Lord which was hiding in it and killed another unit down to 2 men, then a unit of arco flagellants and two priests killed another unit down to 2 men (plus he forgot the priests give each arco +1A, which meant the unit had 32d3 attacks and not 16d3). The conscripts are quite easy to deal with I've found, the real problem is that you have to take a round to kill them before you can get at what they are shielding.

Do not take snipers to counter commissars. Any decent guard player will keep this invisible to your snipers.

Honestly death guard have the best chance. Poxwalkers, with Typhus, and a Noxious Blightbringer. If you get your poxwalkers into melee with the conscripts, they'll regenerate by killing some.

Additionally, Plague Wind in the Contagion Discipline is not terrible.

Roll a D6 for each model in the unit, on a 6, that unit suffers a mortal wound. You can expect to kill between 7-10 models with 1 spell. And you can force them to subtract 1 to hit on your Poxwalkers, meaning their lasguns hit on 6's.

It'd take a bit, but warptime + noxious could get you up to 20" of movement in 1 turn with your Poxwalkers, and conscripts hit them on 6s with the right buffs. If they're spending tank time shooting at your poxwalkers that's a win, because the assumption is that you have something heavy to fight the tanks. Or, you dropped in some deep strike melta in terminator armor. That requires a response.

I dunno. I'm struggling with my chaos stuff, but I don't play it that much.

10 Khorne zerks in a rhino with chain swords and whatever else for flavor. Add a bike-mounted exalted sorcerer with prescience for the lulz.

The various cult troops give you the best mileage

Beserkers obviously carve through them if you get into melee. Just gotta figure out how to do that safely, which becomes a bit of an issue depending on what else is on the field. General problem is, you may find yourself dieing to concentrated fire if the enemy falls back.

Noise marines don't do ti as efficiently as beserkers, but you can probably skip on the transport so that may help. Plus, once you get them in range enemies will die no matter what, so they have some reliability to them.

DG has Plague wind, knocking out a 6th of a unit per turn on average can help. The bloat drone is also nifty for being a couple heavy flamers on a fast tough chassis that takes an inordinate amount of punishment to kill, and with fly you'll be able to flame every turn. Isn't quite as good as some of the other options though.

Tsons have scarab terminators, who can pop down and dot he bolter followed by melee routine better than most terminators.

The other option worth mentioning is daemon princes with talons. They tend to rip everything into small chunks, particularly given they aren't that expensive in the first place. The ones from the Daemon army are better value (particularly khorne) but can't be screened so they may die horribly.

Put beserkers in rhino. Charge with the rhino first. Then charge with the beserkers.

Oh, and you are wrong about the Orks. Ork Boyz would butt-rape your hellforged predator without running away. And they would do the same to the beserkers and the rhino. To deal with Ork hordes use moar bolters.

pismakron wrote:
Oh, and you are wrong about the Orks. Ork Boyz would butt-rape your hellforged predator without running away. And they would do the same to the beserkers and the rhino. To deal with Ork hordes use moar bolters.

Hardly, a Hellforged Predator would kill 10 Orks in the shooting phase and another 10 in overwatch, the Boyz (including PK Nob) would do about 9 wounds in combat and the Predator may kill a couple back and gain a wound, then the Predator would back out of combat, the Boyz would charge back in and all die to overwatch.

As for Zerkers? I whiped out two 30 man Boy blobs, a Warboss and a Painboy using 4 min sized Zerker units and Kharn. The Zerkers took no casualties and then went on to beat an 8 man unit of Killa Kans to death.

 mrhappyface wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Oh, and you are wrong about the Orks. Ork Boyz would butt-rape your hellforged predator without running away. And they would do the same to the beserkers and the rhino. To deal with Ork hordes use moar bolters.

Hardly, a Hellforged Predator would kill 10 Orks in the shooting phase and another 10 in overwatch, the Boyz (including PK Nob) would do about 9 wounds in combat and the Predator may kill a couple back and gain a wound, then the Predator would back out of combat, the Boyz would charge back in and all die to overwatch.

As for Zerkers? I whiped out two 30 man Boy blobs, a Warboss and a Painboy using 4 min sized Zerker units and Kharn. The Zerkers took no casualties and then went on to beat an 8 man unit of Killa Kans to death.

Well, I have only encountered a single faction, that can reliably get the charge against ork boyz in 8th edition, and it wasn't chaos. Don't expect similar results against a competent player, bring more dakka instead.

But on topic, beserkers in rhinos will work against conscripts if you use the rhino to soak up the overwatch. But I find guard one of the tougher nuts to crack in 8th. Regards

pismakron wrote:
Well, I have only encountered a single faction, that can reliably get the charge against ork boyz in 8th edition, and it wasn't chaos. Don't expect similar results against a competent player, bring more dakka instead

And I have yet to meet a player who can get the charge on my Zerkers, my opponant has two options; A, charge the Rhinos holding my Zerkers which means the Zerkers will just get out and charge next turn; or B, don't charge the Rhino and next turn I'll get out and charge them anyway. Ork shooting isn't good enough to destroy a Rhino in one turn and the shooting they do have is normally used on whatever big thing I've brought that will pummel their shooting units into the dirt. Why should I bring dakka when I can beat Orks at what they're best at?

With regards to the hellforged predator, Orks can reliably charge from beyond 8 inches, so flamers really have very unreliable overwatch potential in this matchup. Regards

pismakron wrote:
With regards to the hellforged predator, Orks can reliably charge from beyond 8 inches, so flamers really have very unreliable overwatch potential in this matchup. Regards

Reliable isn't completely true, they have a 50:50 chance of making the charge from that range. Also, I wonder if retreatring from an enemy, even if the player is going to charge the unit that turn, might wound the pride of an Ork player. I certainly know a couple of Ork players who don't retreat (neither do I, which has lost me a few battles unfortunetly).

 mrhappyface wrote:

pismakron wrote:
With regards to the hellforged predator, Orks can reliably charge from beyond 8 inches, so flamers really have very unreliable overwatch potential in this matchup. Regards

Reliable isn't completely true, they have a 50:50 chance of making the charge from that range. Also, I wonder if retreatring from an enemy, even if the player is going to charge the unit that turn, might wound the pride of an Ork player. I certainly know a couple of Ork players who don't retreat (neither do I, which has lost me a few battles unfortunetly).

Orks make an eight inch charge 72,5% of the times, and you only need to get within 1 inch. Furthermore, Orks can reliably kill rhinos on the charge, often on turn one in their opponents deployment zone.

Chaos has many things that counters greentide, but flamers or beserkers in rhinos are just not one of them. Even warptime, which is awesome, is likely to be denied.

pismakron wrote:
Orks make an eight inch charge 72,5% of the times, and you only need to get within 1 inch. Furthermore, Orks can reliably kill rhinos on the charge, often on turn one in their opponents deployment zone.

Chaos has many things that counters greentide, but flamers or beserkers in rhinos are just not one of them. Even warptime, which is awesome, is likely to be denied.

What is the maths for an 8" charge with re-rolls being 72.5%?

I never said Orks couldn't destroy a Rhino in combat, in fact I pointed out that was one of their options. The problem is, once you destroy the Rhino the Zerkers pile out and whipe the Boyz.

Why is warptime likely to be denied? Because of Weirdboy Waaagh energy? What if the Weirdboy is, like most of the time, sitting in deployment flinging Boy units across the board over 24" away? What if the psyker casting is Magnus?

Berzerkers can and do wreck Ork Boyz, as I have been doing.

Back on topic: What are our best assassination options to get to their Commissars and commanders?

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Huron + multiple 40 man Cultist Squads.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Huron + multiple 40 man Cultist Squads.

Can we call this the Hurr-Hurr-Huron formation?

It's a funny idea, but would they hold up? Flamers and better accuracy and melee weapons are all well and good, but is this grindfest going to be more decided by the loyalists' numbers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm, Huron can make them run into combat faster... he's like a combined Dark Apostle and Sorcerer.

Rubrics will beat a conscript blob quite handily. Inferno Bolters rip through those 5+ saves and you're getting a 2+ save vs. their lasguns.

Arachnofiend wrote:
Rubrics will beat a conscript blob quite handily. Inferno Bolters rip through those 5+ saves and you're getting a 2+ save vs. their lasguns.

I gotta disagree, rubrics are far too expensive and slow. A 20 blob of rubrics would be lucky to take them out over three turns, and that's in rapid fire range. The scarabs do it much better for the point cost. Scarabs generally do everything better than normal rubrics right now

Hang on, here's a thought: Fiends of Slaanesh.

They're one of the most flexible Summoning options - even if you roll snake eyes, you can bring one out. If you've taken Reinforcement Points, they're generally worth packing as an option to bring in.

They'll take two wounds from overwatch and likely one will die from attacks, but that's why they charge after the Berzerkers.

As long as one of them is in the mosh pit, there'll be no fall back & get in the fight from the two score and ten.

This could be a game-changer. A modest melee squad can get chopping down the forest, Fiends can join them to keep them from running, and Raptors can use them as a bunker and stepping stone as they deliver plasma and melta to where it's needed.

We might just be able to turn this hordezilla into a liability.

Not so good against Orks, but their hordes are manageable by firepower. Potentially workable against Tyranids.

Fiends are really too squishy. Conscripts may simply be able to focus attacks and kill it on melee after it charges.

Anyone care to run some mathhammer on what number of Poxwalkers is the critical mass that will destroy 50 fearless Conscripts, including Overwatch losses and four of the prey dying to Fiend attacks in each round of combat, and be larger at the end of it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asura Varuna wrote:
Fiends are really too squishy. Conscripts may simply be able to focus attacks and kill it on melee after it charges.

We'll need to carefully co-ordinate. Easy enough for the first charging unit to leave a 2" gap - one Fiend gets in there, one or two others stand behind it, and the Fiends will be taking nine attacks, which on average forces them to take one saving throw. Ld 7 means that when one gets brought down, morale isn't a worry, so two can be enough for this to work.

New FAQ confirms that if a Commissar is lured by Tzeentch to commit Treason, the Conscripts he turns on are forced to fight back and attempt to rip him apart