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Made in us
Been Around the Block





Ynarri is a blast to play, at least until you play a mirror match and realize the full horror that is Strength from Death. Then the game just breaks. My last few Ynarri games have raised a number of interesting questions I wanted to raise with the group, about appropriate themes like “what is death,” “when is the moment of death,” and “what direction does time move.”

What is Death?

Strength from Death triggers “when a unit is completely destroyed within 7” of a unit with the ability. I was amazed how many times in my games we questioned whether a unit that died had been “destroyed,” and of course that led us to other examples of ambiguity in the rule.

Section 5 of the shooting phase in the main rulebook (imho) intentionally differentiates between “destroyed and removed from play” and “slain.” But why? My best guess is that they have identical meaning, but “slain” refers to models, and “destroy” refers to units. Models are slain, units are destroyed. The rules are fairly (but not universally) consistent in this verbage (for support, see for example the statsheet for the Yncarne, which uses both terms, but see the Tau support turret, which uses “destroyed” where it should say slain). It also doesn’t help that “slain” has two uses in the rules: First, to denote death without a save of any kind (as with plasma, Red Terror), and second, to indicate the routine death of a single model after taking a save. I think that when the last model in a unit is slain, the unit is destroyed.
It also doesn’t help that there is at least one other way a unit can die – it can be removed from play. Units that are destroyed are removed from play, as are fleeing models, and some units such as the Cyclops demolition vehicle. So I could see an argument that if a model is removed from play, it skips the “destroyed” step, and simply vanishes. For those of you who have played magic the gathering, this is like the different between exiled (removed from the game) and destroyed (goes to the graveyard, but is still part of the game). So a Noise Marine would not be able to take a Music of the Apocalypse action during the Moral phase, a Necron that flees cannot later reanimate (as the pile of broken machinery has left the field), and a unit whose last member dies to Morale would not trigger strength from death.

On the flip side, this would be an administrative nightmare for new players. For example, units that died through morale would not count as destroyed for missions like No Mercy. And the strength from death rule itself suggests that this is wrong, since GW would not need to write that Strength from Death cannot trigger during the Morale phase if failed morale checks could not lead to destruction of the unit.

Some questions:

If a vehicle that is completely surrounded is destroyed, and the unit inside cannot disembark, how many soul burst actions can nearby Ynarri units take? I hope the answer is that the embarked unit never arrives on the table, and does not trigger soulburst, because otherwise us unscrupulous Ynarri players will be incentivized to fail to disembark their own warlocks to take free on-demand soulburst actions.

If the last model in a unit disembarks because their transport was destroyed, and they roll a 1, the model is slain. The rule says “roll one dice for each model you just set up on the battlefield.” So I have been playing this as triggering soulburst for the embarked unit.

How many units are destroyed when a tau vehicle with embarked gun drones is destroyed?

Spore mines are destroyed when used, but their death is also discounted for just about every in game purpose except strength from death. Is this just a terrible matchup for some nids players, or should we ask for an FAQ excepting models like mines from triggering soulburst?

When is the Moment of Death?

When the last noise marine in a unit is slain, the model is not removed, and after the attacking unit has finished making all of its attacks, the slain model can attack. Is the model destroyed before or after it makes its additional attack? If the destruction happens first, or simultaneously with strength from death such that the active player can order the abilities, what happens if the Ynarri unit engaging the noise marine is a warlock, and its only constructive action is to manifest smite? Will the smite still hit the slain noise marine if it is the closest enemy model?

Similarly, imagine a warlock with 1 wound remaining charges the last noise marine in a unit, and kills it. The noise marine then takes its music of the apocalypse action, and kills the warlock. Imagine no units have been destroyed this game. Who gets first blood in a matched play mission? If the noise marine would get first blood, can the warlock manifest smite with strength from death and attempt to kill the noise marine a second time to steal away first blood?

The same question applies to several models like the Brotherhood champion who can still pile in and attack after being slain.

Even more questions come up with models that die and hang around for longer. I’m not sure when a hive tyrant with a lash whip is destroyed. The rules for the lash whip state “if the bearer is slain in the fight phase before it has made its attacks, leave it where it is. When its unit is chosen to fight in that phase, the bearer can do so as normal before being removed from the battlefield.” An eternity can go by for a Ynarri player during a fight phase. Imagine that a charging Harlequin troop immediately kills a hive tyrant in the fight phase. Even if the hive tyrant is not considered destroyed and does not trigger soulburst, tyrranid units killed by subsequent Ynarri chargers could trigger strength from death on the Harlequin troop. Are they prevented from shooting by the Hive Tyrant? Are they still engaged in combat with a slain model? Is their only movement option to fall back?

This is a tyrranid question, but what if the Harlequin troop is subsequently killed in the fight phase, before the Hive Tyrant fights, so that the Hive Tyrant is no longer within 1” (or even 4”) of any enemy models. The fight phase rules seem to suggest that the Hive Tyrant can no longer be selected to fight, and so never makes it lash whip attacks, and is not removed from play. This is an absurd result that no one would ever allow, but seems to be RAW? When should we artificially kill the Hive Tyrant and give the Ynarri player the free action?

Some models like Celestine and Guilliman come back to life after they are slain. Guilliman in particular doesn’t return until the end of the phase. If he rolls a 4+ to return, was he at any point destroyed, triggering soulburst?

What Direction does Time Move?

In my Ynarri mirror match (may there never be another), I realized that we need an FAQ on sequencing soulburst actions. Imagine that two Ynarri armies are in a short ranged firefight (as happened with me). Wraithguard unit A destroys a vehicle, triggering a soulburst action for each of us. Its my turn, and I get to decide who takes the first soulburst action, but how much information do I have? Does my opponent have to tell me what unit is going to take the soulburst action before I decide the order? If so, does he have to tell me what action that unit is going to select?

Now imagine we both have an Yncarne that wants to get into the fight using its Inevitable Death ability. I have to potentially sequence those abilities as well. Do I only need to choose the sequence for the inevitable deaths if each of us actually intends to move our Avatars? In other words, before I decide whether to let my opponent move the Avatar first, second, third, or last, do I know if he has committed to actually moving?

Now imagine I chose for my Wraithguard A unit to soulburst, and shoot again. My opponent’s soulburst action and the two inevitable death triggers are still in limbo. My wraithguard unit (which hits automatically with 30 S 10 shots in my hypothetical) wipes out another unit, triggering two more soulburst actions (I will call this my soulburst 2 and his soulburst 2) and two more inevitable death triggers. What direction do things move, forward or back?

To use magic the gathering as an example again, this situation would be called a stack, and it works first in, last out. In magic, we would resolve all of the soulburst 2 actions and inevitable death 2 triggers now, and leave his soulburst 1 trigger for later. If my soulburst 2 action killed another unit, we would go on to the soulburst 3 actions. In other words, under first in, last out, my army could wipe him out on my turn without his ever taking a soulburst action (and vice versa on his turn). Magic rules are intuitive to me, but perhaps not to others. The other way to do it would be to go backwards in time, and resolve all of the 1s before we go on to the 2s and 3s…..

In either situation, the Avatars can do a lot of dancing….

Sorry for the long post. Until recently, I hadn’t played 40k for about 15 years (at Dakka in Manchester). But when I heard they had released a simplified new edition, I dug out my older Eldar and started playing a few games. Quickly realized that the Ynarri keyword outclasses the entire Index, and in my opinion, every other faction. I am surely not the best player, and many of you would likely beat me, but with my local play group, Ynarri is in its own class by itself.

Playing Ynarri is a lot like playing Warmachine. You set up and then execute massive combos. Inexepensive screening units such as Dark Eldar Khymerae and Eldar warlocks provide expendable (albeit not terribly fluffy) souls to sacrifice for additional actions. They block charge lanes, threaten to explode anyone that dares kill them, and can suicide charge into melee characters to generate additional attacks (I don’t believe you can elect not to fight in combat).

I love this faction, but I hope GW tones the complexity down a bit.
   
Made in gb
Deranged Necron Destroyer



UK, Midlands

What is Death?

I think you're over complicating this. Death is death, whether it says slain, destroyed or removed from play. A distinction is never specifically made between types of death and assuming there is one is opening a big can of worms.

For the disembarking from transports bit: If the unit was on the board before being destroyed it can trigger SfD, if not you can't be in 7".

Moment of Death:

If a special rule requires a unit to have died in order to trigger, then the unit has died and SfD is triggered, if both happen as soon as the unit dies then the player who's turn it is decides the order. If one happens later, like end of phase, then SfD will happen before it. This will lead to some weirdness.

The smite thing is potentially an issue.


Celestine and Bobby G will trigger SfD when they die, even if they come back. Death (or what ever name you want to give it) has happened, soulburst happens.

The hive Tyrant has been slain when it is slain, SfD does not require the model to have been removed. If you are still within an inch of it your actions will be limited. It's an odd one but the rules seem to work.


Ynnari vs Ynnari

lol. If this match up happens you need to have a big discussion with you're opponent before you start to make sure you're on the same page. I would think that if both players want to make a SfD off a unit being destroyed then both players have to state what they are doing in order for the sequencing rules to come into play.

The Magic stack system would be a handy way to do it but isn't supported by any rules. I think it's just en ever growing pile of things happening at the same time and the player who's turn it is decides the order. It will be a horrible mess. It would be amusing though: Yvraine casts WotP making a unit shoot and it kills something, both armies then end up shooting all their units in a domino effect of death, the smoke clears and you say "ok, now the shooting phase".



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/21 11:07:34


 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

Ynnari vs Ynnari

lol. If this match up happens you need to have a big discussion with you're opponent before you start to make sure you're on the same page. I would think that if both players want to make a SfD off a unit being destroyed then both players have to state what they are doing in order for the sequencing rules to come into play.


Yeah you just need to be clear. If say.. a transport is blown up.. you need to finish that action before doing any SfD. So for example...

* Transport blows up (Triggers SfD) -> resolve explode -> disembark troops -> SfD trigger is now resolved. Since its your turn, you decide whose SfD trigger happens first. Most likely that will be your own.. That part is clear in the rulebook. The current active player always chooses the sequence of two simul actions.

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Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




 Grizzyzz wrote:
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

Ynnari vs Ynnari

lol. If this match up happens you need to have a big discussion with you're opponent before you start to make sure you're on the same page. I would think that if both players want to make a SfD off a unit being destroyed then both players have to state what they are doing in order for the sequencing rules to come into play.


Yeah you just need to be clear. If say.. a transport is blown up.. you need to finish that action before doing any SfD. So for example...

* Transport blows up (Triggers SfD) -> resolve explode -> disembark troops -> SfD trigger is now resolved. Since its your turn, you decide whose SfD trigger happens first. Most likely that will be your own.. That part is clear in the rulebook. The current active player always chooses the sequence of two simul actions.


Not sure if that is how it works though. The step for making an attack has as last part taking damage killing the unit. So actually SfD should trigger after the damage is done. If you do damage to a unit, and kill it in the Explosion, that should interrup the vehicle destroyed sequence and actually trigger a secound soulburst, that gets resolved (hopefully not triggering another one) than the secound one triggers after the sequence is finished.

This could actually have a big Impact, especially if there are troops in the vehicle, are they technically already on the field right when the vehicle is destroyed? I would say no since the Explosion does not catch them. So if SfD triggers right away they could not be shot at by the soulbursting unit, in your sequence they could. It also brings up the question when something is simul? Does it depend on the woring of the Abilitiy? How is immediately to be taken here...

this rule is in desperate need of an FAQ.
   
Made in ru
Screaming Shining Spear




Russia, Moscow

How many units are destroyed when a tau vehicle with embarked gun drones is destroyed?

Drones count as basic embarked unit which doesn't take any extra space. So they follow same rules for any other unit which is embarked. They count as separate unit for all purposes.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





i think you're over complicating this. Death is death, whether it says slain, destroyed or removed from play. A distinction is never specifically made between types of death and assuming there is one is opening a big can of worms.


I think this was a totally valid reaction shared by 90% of the community. But based on the FAQ it looks like there are different ways to die (for example and fi the last model in a unit flees) that don't count as being destroyed, and we have wurms? Or did the FAQ not go that far?
   
 
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