Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi everyone, I'm opening this thread because our local Ynnari player is tabling everyone at our FLGS in two to three turns, even though they have solid lists most of the time, the Ynnari just outshot everyone. The Ynnari list contained mostly Harlequins in their transports, all with melta pistols, there was Yvraine, Fuegan, Dark Reapers, Jain Zarr and some Banshees, and a load of stuff I forgot about. The Blood Angel player that faced him last time had 3 Stormravens, Devastator units, Tactical and Assault Marines and I forgot the rest. The Ynnari just shot one Stormraven a turn while severely damaging the others thanks to the Strength from Death rule. Overall after playing against him a few times I really feel this rule is overpowered.

Don't get me wrong, he is an excellent player and he builds pretty strong lists, but the fact that he plays Ynnari doesn't help us, not even once could we consider the rest of the game could be successful for us after turn one. I feel like in 8th where everything goes so fast (I've read several players on the web who says getting the first turn is even deadlier than before, don't know if that's true) having free phases like that is just not balanced at all. I've never faced a Sisters army but their Act of Faith ability doesn't look that powerful compared to SfD at least. And losing some special rules to gain SfD doesn't seem like a fair trade-off, nobody plays Craftwolrds anymore and it's not for no reason, it's just that Ynnari are better in every aspect speaking of efficiency.

Just wondering if you guys had any input about this, if you faced similar situations in your FLGS or if it's just us having a hard time countering that list. Personnaly I don't want to tailor my list (even though I don't have the army/models to do that) as I think tailoring is an insult to the opponent but I don't know how to face those brutal lists.

ynnari can be a difficult match up because you have to play them different then the norm. So you want to weaken units but not necessarily wipe them. And which models you remove and your movement is very important. If you are outside of 7 inches when your units die and you are weakening but not wiping out units when there is a unit then can really benefit from soulburst nearby you can limit soulburst.

It is an unforgiving mechanic tho so you have to be on top of your game. And really rewards a good general running it as well.

Sounds like he has a tough eldar list but running a few of the lower tier eldar units, so I wouldn't say the list is overpowered.

I hope your local Ynnari player is not using SfD to fire his melta clowns twice while they're still in their transport. That's ridiculously powerful and not legal.

It's funny cos harlequins losing rising crescendo for sfd is a huge deal and sacrifice.
Battle focus to strength from death is a no brainer imo.

And you don't have to cheat with soulburst to do busted things with it. It's plenty abusable as is.

 Oaka wrote:
I hope your local Ynnari player is not using SfD to fire his melta clowns twice while they're still in their transport. That's ridiculously powerful and not legal.

No he never did, but still 24 pts for a melta pistol on a 14" vehicle with no means to kill them beyond destroying the whole vehicle, which has a 4++ and gives -1 to hit (at least it's fragile I admit), combined with his insane saving rolls (seriously Cegorach is with him) makes for a very strong firing platform. Thank the gods it can't be triggered by SfD.

Yeah it slaughters elites and tough models, but can't do enough damage against hordes. Has he played against Orks or IG conscripts, or is your gaming group more geared towards marine armies? As much as I loathe to say it, but it might simply be a rock-paper-scissors matchup with Ynnari and harlequins. Fusion pistol harlequins and dark reapers will make short work of marines, but they're killing the exact same number of guardsmen.

As others have said, ynnari can be a difficult matchup if your not familiar with the sfd rule and its an army you have to take a part piece by piece. Gradually weaken units until your ready to kill cause that soulburst ability is a mother.

I recently defeated a 3k ynnari army with a world eaters detachment in a killpoints game. He had wraithknights and those fiendish D-dudes along with some harlequins with fusion pistols.

I had a hell of alot of plasma havocs, a deredeo with the ectoplasma+hellfire veil+lord, a deep striking melta termi squad + heldrakes, a DP and zhufor. And another super knowledgeable general on my team who was basically guiding me (the ynnari player was cool with it as he wants to get ready for a tourney).

We actually elected to go 2nd as much of my squad was out of range. The trick was to weaken everything with plasma but try not to kill it as he approached then surrounded him and got him into melee so he couldnt run away and shoot me to death with the D-fiends. By the end of the game the last models alive was yncarne and the plasma squads. He killed all my melee but they achieved what they were supposed to.

I don't think it is actually Ynnari that is that good, but rather harlequins are very good. The issue with harlequins is they lack ranged support so when you add ynnari you can take the ravagers or reapers or what have you. But even without Ynnari you could easily run an Aeldari faction with mostly harliquins and just add your ranged support in a battalion. Sure Ynnari does it easier and is probably better but having a bunch of harlequins with SFD, yvraine and reapers would not be too different than having a bunch of harlequins with raising crescendo, a farseer and reapers.

As for balance, I don't think that Ynnari, or harlequins with ranged support, is too powerful. I think they are one of the stronger armies and because harlequins really only has one build (take players in starweavers) all harlequin armies are going to be strong, compared to other armies where you might take sub optimal units because you have the option. I think harlequins will run into problems when you start putting them against super competitive lists, like brimstone horror spam or conscript spam, they will not do nearly as well.

As someone already said, introduce his army to hordes. Orks and AM will do, but also Tournament Nids can be pretty tough to contain without some luck in the right moments, they simply out-number and out-pressure you.
Note that normally FLGS meta is a meta on its own, if nobody owns a natural counter to a specific army. You need the whole picture to evaluate an army.


Source: I play Harlequins and Ynnari (not together though, I'm a Harlequin purist)

They are strong, but not undefeatable, and as others have mentioned they will struggle with hordes.

To be honest I feel like all the Aeldari factions are balanced with Ynnari in mind and do not play as well alone.

Eldarsif wrote:
They are strong, but not undefeatable, and as others have mentioned they will struggle with hordes.

To be honest I feel like all the Aeldari factions are balanced with Ynnari in mind and do not play as well alone.

I disagree. Never lost a game with Ynnari vs hordes.... Ynnari Shadow Spectres in large numbers are the key.

He told us that against hordes he could disembark the Harlequins to go CC with them, and he still has Jain Zarr and her Banshees. I don't remember his full list but there's quite a lot of CC power too.

the ynnari harley tournament list can and does beat hordes. It's still a LOT of shooting. Like a lot. And orks can't catch up to ynnari harleys, even with a warboss advance buff.

Nids migh be able to catch them but I haven't really heard of a super ultra competitive nid list on the same level as all storm ravens or all brimstones. I mean all storm ravens on their own do act to keep ork hordes off top tables more often than not too.

Astra militarum.... just.... how much SfD are you willing to pop?

Ynnari is a very difficult army tactically, both to play and face. So far I havent wonna single game against my friend who plays mostly Grey Knights and Adeptus Custodes. Even when he's deliberately fielding a weak list I struggle immensely. Now, I don't use quins (apart from some proxied Skyweavers), so my list is far from optimal, but the biggest difference between us is skill. I started playing late in 7th and he's been playing much longer than I have plus he's constantly studying units, loadouts, lists and tactics. Hell, he probably knows my army better than I know, and he's never played Eldar.

I struggle so much because he knows how to play against Ynnari (as someone stated above, this is very important) and I'm still learning how to play optimally. By the sound of it you're facing the opposite. A strong Ynnari player going up against opponents that doesn't know how to specifically deal with this army. SfD isn't OP, but extremely punishing if you make mistakes, both for the player and opponent.

I have the strong feeling that people here are underestimating AM and Orks hordes A LOT.
You can have as much shooting as you want, you're wasting that on 3x30 Boyz or 3x50 Conscripts, whose points are irrelevant in the economy of the list and there's still an entire army behind them.
Guy's convinced to be able to take down hordes in CC with Harlequins, but I assume he didn't try which is what I thought. Not commenting on that, he must be rolling THE NUTS on each die.

I feel the incoming ETC will make thinks a lot more clear. Curious to see if I'm right.

Well, I battled Chaos with my Ynnari on Saturday (see my thread at the Army List section). Ynnari has the ability to table enemy armies in a few rounds. I rolled badly in round 2, but tabled Chaos at the top of round 5. ''Strength from Death'' seems to be the new black.

The trick could be not to kill a whole unit but weaken it. But remnants of units often die from other effects like mortal wounds from exploding vehicles or non-passed morale checks.

Some said, its the Harlies and not SfD. I don't even play Harlies (they are still shelved). The potential of SfD is beyond every unit you play. Its a concerted effect which is hard to stop. Once the dying on the battle field begins, SfD will cause even more casualties. My Serpents where often nearby when a unit died in said game. And with 3 shuriken cannons the enemy will get hit very hard.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I battled Chaos with my Ynnari on Saturday (see my thread at the Army List section). Ynnari has the ability to table enemy armies in a few rounds. I rolled badly in round 2, but tabled Chaos at the top of round 5. ''Strength from Death'' seems to be the new black.

The trick could be not to kill a whole unit but weaken it. But remnants of units often die from other effects like mortal wounds from exploding vehicles or non-passed morale checks.

Some said, its the Harlies and not SfD. I don't even play Harlies (they are still shelved). The potential of SfD is beyond every unit you play. Its a concerted effect which is hard to stop. Once the dying on the battle field begins, SfD will cause even more casualties. My Serpents where often nearby when a unit died in said game. And with 3 shuriken cannons the enemy will get hit very hard.

I thought vehicles didn't get affected by SfD ? Or is it another rule that I'm thinking of ?

 Aaranis wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I battled Chaos with my Ynnari on Saturday (see my thread at the Army List section). Ynnari has the ability to table enemy armies in a few rounds. I rolled badly in round 2, but tabled Chaos at the top of round 5. ''Strength from Death'' seems to be the new black.

The trick could be not to kill a whole unit but weaken it. But remnants of units often die from other effects like mortal wounds from exploding vehicles or non-passed morale checks.

Some said, its the Harlies and not SfD. I don't even play Harlies (they are still shelved). The potential of SfD is beyond every unit you play. Its a concerted effect which is hard to stop. Once the dying on the battle field begins, SfD will cause even more casualties. My Serpents where often nearby when a unit died in said game. And with 3 shuriken cannons the enemy will get hit very hard.

I thought vehicles didn't get affected by SfD ? Or is it another rule that I'm thinking of ?

Vehicles do indeed not gain SfD. Only infantry and bikers. Same goes for Word of the Phoenix.

Kheirn wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I battled Chaos with my Ynnari on Saturday (see my thread at the Army List section). Ynnari has the ability to table enemy armies in a few rounds. I rolled badly in round 2, but tabled Chaos at the top of round 5. ''Strength from Death'' seems to be the new black.

The trick could be not to kill a whole unit but weaken it. But remnants of units often die from other effects like mortal wounds from exploding vehicles or non-passed morale checks.

Some said, its the Harlies and not SfD. I don't even play Harlies (they are still shelved). The potential of SfD is beyond every unit you play. Its a concerted effect which is hard to stop. Once the dying on the battle field begins, SfD will cause even more casualties. My Serpents where often nearby when a unit died in said game. And with 3 shuriken cannons the enemy will get hit very hard.

I thought vehicles didn't get affected by SfD ? Or is it another rule that I'm thinking of ?

Vehicles do indeed not gain SfD. Only infantry and bikers. Same goes for Word of the Phoenix.

Right.
What I meant is that one way countering SfD is to leave some remnants of a unit and not kill it totally. But remnants may get killed from exploding vehicles and whatnot. Then SfD will also get triggered.

SfD specifically states it doesn't proc in morale phase.

You can, however, rush your almost dead units into fight phase to get SfD since enemy is obligated to fight in fight phase.

 Shadenuat wrote:
SfD specifically states it doesn't proc in morale phase.

You can, however, rush your almost dead units into fight phase to get SfD since enemy is obligated to fight in fight phase.

That's what happens, he can also chose to use his armour save (even if it's totally negated) instead of the invulnerable save.

I don't like playing against Ynnari because of how tedious that is, you have to think about every decision you make to prevent shooting yourself in the foot and so in the end you do nothing. It encourages Eldar players to send Eldars to their deaths just to trigger their ability like some kind of expendable cultists and furthermore no one plays Craftworlds anymore so I'll never get to see what's the worth of the Eldar in this edition.

Free phases is overpowered, period. Be clever in your list building and movements and everything dies in three turns.

 Aaranis wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
SfD specifically states it doesn't proc in morale phase.

You can, however, rush your almost dead units into fight phase to get SfD since enemy is obligated to fight in fight phase.

That's what happens, he can also chose to use his armour save (even if it's totally negated) instead of the invulnerable save.

I don't like playing against Ynnari because of how tedious that is, you have to think about every decision you make to prevent shooting yourself in the foot and so in the end you do nothing. It encourages Eldar players to send Eldars to their deaths just to trigger their ability like some kind of expendable cultists and furthermore no one plays Craftworlds anymore so I'll never get to see what's the worth of the Eldar in this edition.

Free phases is overpowered, period. Be clever in your list building and movements and everything dies in three turns.

Ynnari is very strong if played correctly.
How about the annoncement of GW to provide a balanced game?
Its not doable. This problem is NP hard.

 Aaranis wrote:

I don't like playing against Ynnari because of how tedious that is, you have to think about every decision you make to prevent shooting yourself in the foot (...)

But doesn't that apply to other armies as well?

Facing Necrons? You miscalculated ever so slightly the firepower needed to entirely wipe the entire target unit off the table and one or two of 20 models survived? Too bad for you, since ~9 models come back. (assuming there's something like Orikan close by)

To be honest: I find THAT much more tedious than Ynnari, since it forces me to do much more mental arithmetics.

From what I've heard Necrons aren't that big of a deal actually in 8th, I've yet to face them this edition to be honest but what I saw was our Ynnari player destroying a Necron player in two turns, two of his Scythes (the transport ones) dead in one turn, so unable to bring most of his army and all his Overlords to the table. I admit he never ever faced Ynnari before and so he didn't think they could obliterate his transports in one turn but still, I didn't played against Necrons yet so for now my opinion is that Ynnari are too strong and feel "unnatural" to play with (don't really have a word to express in English sorry).

Just two days ago I played 'as' Ynnari against a Necron player and I'd say it was pretty evenly matched, though his army had the advantage when it came to capturing objectives.

He played max-size units ... not to counter Ynnari, but instead to minimize the risk of seeing his units wiped out before models come back. That composition choice just so happened to counter SfD, since it minimized the triggers for that ability at the same time.

Granted: I'm not very experienced yet, but Ynnari certainly don't feel overpowered to me. I've only won very few games so far and in most cases it worked, because my opponent ended up moving weak units in SfD range of my D-Scythe Wraithguards, just so they could make use of rapid fire or stuff like that. So it ended up being a matter of: 'Thanks for making my list work ... deliberately!"

Another player at my local store played an Ynnari list as well (more mobile than mine) and it didn't end well against Necrons. Basically it was the same problem: The large unity that the Necron player ran because of the way reanimation protocols work perfectly countered SfD.

Some people suggested to run larger units of Wraithguards and some smaller units of throway models that could just die with the sole purpose of triggering SfD, but in the end. that doesn't seem to be very point efficient ... even it I consider the shots that sacrificial unit absorbed.

SfD definitely 'feels' much stronger than the alternative of running a craftworld list. I also don't think the new "tax" of having to run some Ynnari HQ in order to make your list Ynnari to be much of a problem. Sure: There are SfD-list-concepts that don't benefit much from Yvraine, but just as many would want to run her anyway, but I think it's far too early to call that overpowered.

(btw: I don't run any Harlequins. I just don't like the models and the fluff as much as I like my Wraith list. )

Looks like it's a nice army to match them, they're resilient and are actually encouraged to run max units of 20 Warriors. Leaves few room for triggering Soulburst. You're probably right that Harliequins make the biggest strength, they're just perfect for an Ynnari army as they're fast enough to go where you want them to kill stuff, and their cheap melta-pistols allow them to not be ignored (as well as the Dark Reapers).

The Strength from Death bubble is only 7" and keeping your forces within 7" of each other can be a challenge, even for a good general. If he slips up, make sure to pounce on a unit that's isolated.

That's not to say that there'll be units out there on their own all the time, but, even if he keeps every unit in his army within 7" of another, there'll always be some units that are receiving less support than others. For example, wiping out a unit that only triggers one unit for a potential SfD action is much better than wiping out a unit that triggers several. I like to think about it as fighting Tau and Supporting Fire or whatever it's called. Charging a unit in the middle of his battleline is suicide, since you'll have four other units firing overwatch at you. However, charging a unit on the end, that only triggers one other overwatch, is normally ok. So think about it like that.

If you can, make sure the unit you trigger for a SfD action doesn't get maximum effectiveness out of the action. For example, if he has a unit of Fire Dragons set up nicely 7" away from a weakened unit, make sure you move any big vehicles or monsters away from them and make sure the unit you send in to wipe out the weakened unit isn't one of the fire dragons' optimal targets, in case they fall in the firing line. To this end, mobile units can really give you an advantage.

Finally, remember that SfD doesn't activate in the Morale Phase. So, if you have anything that can reduce Leadership, add to Morale Test rolls, or anything like that, bring it. These things are pretty useful overall anyway, so they won't be a liability even if you don't fight against Ynnari.

Hope this helps!

The Strength from Death bubble is only 7" and keeping your forces within 7" of each other can be a challenge, even for a good general. If he slips up, make sure to pounce on a unit that's isolated.

Take units in Serpents and when they disembark have the Serpents nearby. Plain and simple.
Destroy one of my unit of Fire Dragons, get the full load of 3 shuriken cannons from a Serpent in your face.
Destroy one enemy unit, get the D-scythes of my Wraithguard in your face. The possibilities are not endless but the enemy will pay for each dead unit.

Vehicles can't Soulburst, and in general the unit that got out of the Serpent is going to be a more tempting target than the Serpent itself.

I've only played Ynnari once in 8th, and it was a mostly craftworld gunline list with double-tapping dark reapers against my wych cult Dark Eldar army. I tried to do most of my killing in melee, engaging as much of the enemy army as possible, so the soulbursts they got were either with less threatening supportive units or close combat attacks with crappy non-combat units.

The scary list as I understand it is actually Ynnar-lequins using soulburst and double melta-ing things. I can see that being scary, I've just run my harlies as regular clowns for now and they seem solidly strong.