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Seraphim Shield of Faith and St. Celestine  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in gb
Instigating Incubi

The dark behind the eyes.

Does Celestine's aura give Seraphim a 5++/5++ (that is, a rerollable 5++) or a 6++/5++ (that is, a 6++ which can be rerolled and then saves on a 5++)?

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"

 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut

Beacon of Faith lets Seraphim "add 1 to their Shield of Faith invulnerable saves". It is a little unclear whether this is intended to be a modifier to the saving throw or an improvement to their actual save. Seraphim actually force you to "re-roll failed Shield of Faith invulnerable saves" -- you don't get a choice. This is very strange in both cases. Usually we're told to modify rolls or saving throws rather than saves, and usually we're given the option to re-roll failed rolls.

If Celestine is giving them a modifier to their roll, then I guess the way this works is that you first get a 6+. A roll of 5 is a failure, before modifiers, and so you would have to re-roll it. And then you would save on a 5+ the second time.

If Celestine is improving their save by 1, then I think it's a 5+ both times. This wouldn't be a modifier to a roll.

Generally the rules seem consistent about explicitly telling you to modify a roll when that's what they mean. You never add or subtract one from "hits" but from "hit rolls". A unit in cover can "add 1 to its models' saving throws" rather than to its "saves". Thousand Sons HQs allow re-rolling of "invulnerable saving throws of 1". Rubric Marines "add 1 to the saving throws..." The Tzeentch Ephemeral Form ability likewise adds to saving throws.

Meanwhile there are very few abilities that modify characteristics which you test against. The Necron HQ Nemesor Zahndrekh can take a unit and "improve their Ballistic Skill by 1". Obviously what's weird about this for Celestine is that "adding 1" to the Seraphim's invulnerable save doesn't seem to make sense, since lower is better.

However, note that the Dark Eldar combat drug Serpentin has the effect: "+1 to Weapon Skill (i.e. WS 3+ becomes WS 2+)", which clearly suggests that we should interpret addition to test characteristics as improving them despite this seeming backwards.

Given Serpentin, I'm comfortable saying that what Celestine does is make the Seraphim's invulnerable save 5+, instead of adding 1 to their saving throws. I think this is probably not a modifier of the sort that would require you to re-roll a 5, but this is not 100% clear.

I am also very confident that almost nobody who thought about these rules at any point, inside or outside GW, even considered the 6++/5++ reading.
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin

Seraphims can reroll shield of faith. Celestine gives a +1 modifier to shield of faith. So you roll and reroll Shield of Faith with +1 modifier.
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss

It says it's adding one to the saves not the rolls, similar to how Thousand Sons work imho.
If it is a modified roll however it's just another reason why reroll before modifiers is really dumb

Scratch that looks like it's modifying the roll not the actual save. One again the idiotic re-roll system comes into play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/22 15:08:34

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Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It says it's adding one to the saves not the rolls, similar to how Thousand Sons work imho.
If it is a modified roll however it's just another reason why reroll before modifiers is really dumb

Scratch that looks like it's modifying the roll not the actual save. One again the idiotic re-roll system comes into play.

Actually it's impossible to tell RAW if it's applying to the roll or not. Most things that apply to the roll specify 'roll' or 'throw' but it's GW rules writing so precedent means very little.


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