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Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

Does Celestine's aura give Seraphim a 5++/5++ (that is, a rerollable 5++) or a 6++/5++ (that is, a 6++ which can be rerolled and then saves on a 5++)?

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Beacon of Faith lets Seraphim "add 1 to their Shield of Faith invulnerable saves". It is a little unclear whether this is intended to be a modifier to the saving throw or an improvement to their actual save. Seraphim actually force you to "re-roll failed Shield of Faith invulnerable saves" -- you don't get a choice. This is very strange in both cases. Usually we're told to modify rolls or saving throws rather than saves, and usually we're given the option to re-roll failed rolls.

If Celestine is giving them a modifier to their roll, then I guess the way this works is that you first get a 6+. A roll of 5 is a failure, before modifiers, and so you would have to re-roll it. And then you would save on a 5+ the second time.

If Celestine is improving their save by 1, then I think it's a 5+ both times. This wouldn't be a modifier to a roll.

Generally the rules seem consistent about explicitly telling you to modify a roll when that's what they mean. You never add or subtract one from "hits" but from "hit rolls". A unit in cover can "add 1 to its models' saving throws" rather than to its "saves". Thousand Sons HQs allow re-rolling of "invulnerable saving throws of 1". Rubric Marines "add 1 to the saving throws..." The Tzeentch Ephemeral Form ability likewise adds to saving throws.

Meanwhile there are very few abilities that modify characteristics which you test against. The Necron HQ Nemesor Zahndrekh can take a unit and "improve their Ballistic Skill by 1". Obviously what's weird about this for Celestine is that "adding 1" to the Seraphim's invulnerable save doesn't seem to make sense, since lower is better.

However, note that the Dark Eldar combat drug Serpentin has the effect: "+1 to Weapon Skill (i.e. WS 3+ becomes WS 2+)", which clearly suggests that we should interpret addition to test characteristics as improving them despite this seeming backwards.

Given Serpentin, I'm comfortable saying that what Celestine does is make the Seraphim's invulnerable save 5+, instead of adding 1 to their saving throws. I think this is probably not a modifier of the sort that would require you to re-roll a 5, but this is not 100% clear.

I am also very confident that almost nobody who thought about these rules at any point, inside or outside GW, even considered the 6++/5++ reading.
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Seraphims can reroll shield of faith. Celestine gives a +1 modifier to shield of faith. So you roll and reroll Shield of Faith with +1 modifier.
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





It says it's adding one to the saves not the rolls, similar to how Thousand Sons work imho.
If it is a modified roll however it's just another reason why reroll before modifiers is really dumb


Scratch that looks like it's modifying the roll not the actual save. One again the idiotic re-roll system comes into play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/22 15:08:34


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; and Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




 BaconCatBug wrote:
It says it's adding one to the saves not the rolls, similar to how Thousand Sons work imho.
If it is a modified roll however it's just another reason why reroll before modifiers is really dumb


Scratch that looks like it's modifying the roll not the actual save. One again the idiotic re-roll system comes into play.


Actually it's impossible to tell RAW if it's applying to the roll or not. Most things that apply to the roll specify 'roll' or 'throw' but it's GW rules writing so precedent means very little.

2500pts
2500
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