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Some weapons, like Gorkanaut's claw, say, "Make 3 hit rolls for each attack made with this weapon instead of 1."
I believe, based on "Resolve Attacks" in Core Rules, that this means you still only get one wound roll for each attack, no matter how many times a single attack hits.
Thoughts?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Some weapons, like Gorkanaut's claw, say, "Make 3 hit rolls for each attack made with this weapon instead of 1."
I believe, based on "Resolve Attacks" in Core Rules, that this means you still only get one wound roll for each attack, no matter how many times a single attack hits.
Thoughts?

No, you get the chance to cause 3 wounds because every roll to hit generates a roll to wound.

Rules for that?
You get one to wound roll for each attack that hits. The special rule says you get multiple hit rolls, not multiple attacks.

I'd say that each attack can wound, as we have the precedent of "roll X dice and pick the highest" on (for instance) meltas.

It seems this is to simulate the size of the attacking weapon (like a knight foot). It's essentially MELEE 3.

EDIT: Frankly, between choppas, chainswords, new power swords and such, a MELEE X should probably have been included. Hindsight.

 3orangewhips wrote:
I'd say that each attack can wound.

So yes, each attack can wound. That was never the questiom. The question is can a single attack wound more than one time?
My opinion is no, it cannot. No matter how many times a single attack hits, it's a binary choice: hit yes or no?
If yes, wound yes or no?

You are correct inasmuch as I got lost in the terminology. Rephrased (changes are bolded, it's not for emphasis):

I'd say that each roll to hit can wound, as we have the precedent of "roll X dice and pick the highest" on (for instance) meltas.

Since this does not give the "pick the highest" instruction, we must therefore assume that each roll is a discrete hit and can result in a wound.

It seems this is to simulate the size of the attacking weapon (like a knight foot). It's essentially MELEE 3.

EDIT: Frankly, between choppas, chainswords, new power swords and such, a MELEE X should probably have been included. Hindsight.

So what is the difference between a hit and an attack in your opinion?
Attacks can generate wounds, but hits cannot.

An attack generates X dice, which are rolled. Each die that meets or exceeds the required number is a hit. Each hit can generate a wound.

Ergo, the point of the rule: a single "attack" can generate multiple potential hits. which then generate wounds. The benefits is you have more potential wounds. The drawback is you do potentially less damage when compared to the single attack of the more potent close combat weapon.

There is no point in using the stomp otherwise--if it were more chances for a single attack to generate a hit, then it would instruct you to pick the highest or reroll the attack.

As such, we must conclude a single attack with a stomp potentially generates multiple, discrete chances to hit, and thus wound.

This is clearly both RAI and RAW, based on the info we have thus far.

That's not what the rules say at all, though.
CRB 3.4.1 (close combat says refer to shooting) says, "Each time a model makes an attack, roll a dice. If the roll is equal to or greater than the attacking model's [WS], then it scores a hit with the weapon it's using."
3.4.2 then goes on to say that you get one wound roll for each successful ATTACK, NOT each successful hit. One attack can only produce one wound roll.

These types of weapons are essentially giving you re-rolls, increasing your chance to hit, eg. to represent "the size of the attacking weapon."

I still haven't seen any rules presented that allows for the model to make additional ATTACKS...only additional HITS, which are two separate things.
For reference, look at a chainsword or choppa, which give the model an additional ATTACK not hit. Or a Chapter Ancient (SM), which gives models in range an additional ATTACK not hit.
They're very clearly different things.

Funny. It's same for Imperial Knights too, but not for Wraithknight where it actually states to roll 3 dice instead of 1 for every attack with it's legs.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Funny. It's same for Imperial Knights too, but not for Wraithknight where it actually states to roll 3 dice instead of 1 for every attack with it's legs.

This is a good example. A Wraithknight has an A value of 4 and three Melee attacks. Only one has the ability to roll 3 dice instead of 1. Essentially, in my understanding, this can be worded as Melee 3.

So when a Wraithknight is attacking with one of his other melee attacks, he uses his A4, but when he uses Titanic Feet, he uses A12.

I think a perfect proof of intention is the Soul Grinder from the Chaos Index. It was two weapon options Warpclaw and Warpsword. They are both 0 points and you get one or the other, not both.

Warpsword is AP-3 D3 and RR to hit
Warpclaw is AP-2 D(d3) and 2 hit rolls per attack

So if you treat the extra to-hits as only doing one wound per attack then Warpclaw is functionally identical to rerolling to hit in which case they would have just written that it rerolls to hit. Not only that but it is objectively worse then the Warpsword as it just does less damage and has less AP. The only way the Warpclaw would be a functional option is if you treat the extra to hit rolls as extra attacks and let it make its extra to wound rolls as well.

The problem with this interpretation is that the rules specifically allow you to fastroll all these hit dice together. If you really could only get a single successful hit per attack, then the fast dice rolling rules would not work in this case.

I think it's pretty safe to assume that GW intended for these weapons to be able to cause a wound per hit die rolled.

However, it definitely is a good one to include for a FAQ.

Agreed yakface. I don't know how the submission works, but we might want to suggest they consider rewriting the weapons profile to include a MELEE X going forward.

/armchair, monday-morning games designer OUT

 yakface wrote:

The problem with this interpretation is that the rules specifically allow you to fastroll all these hit dice together. If you really could only get a single successful hit per attack, then the fast dice rolling rules would not work in this case.

I find this argument unconvincing, because of the "Resolve Attacks" section: "Attacks can be made one at a time, or, in some cases, you can roll for multiple attacks together."
Under the RAW "attack != hit" reading, this would clearly not be one of those cases.

But yes, FAQ would be good. (My goal is to get five questions onto the Dakka FAQ submission This will be #3.)

Not combat but the same thing... What about tesla weapons?

They score extra hits on a 6+ - not extra attacks. Does that mean they only inflict a single wound as they're profile is assault 1 ie one attack?

If you interpret it as the OP does, multiple hit rolls in one attack is still one attack, there are some consequences in the to hit section that would make these weapons worse than regular weapons.

"...then it scores a hit with the weapon it is using. If not, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends. "

If all the extra hit rolls are considered the same attack then if any one of those hit rolls fail... so does the attack! This would border on absurdity here though as it would cost more points for a worse weapon so definitely not intended.

RAI: I suspect the reason for making these extra hits and not extra attacks is that you have to use the same stats for the extra attacks, against the same target. So getting extra hits with a weapon is less flexible (and thus less valuable) than getting extra attacks.

Wrong post sorry....

It's pretty clear the intent of such attacks is that you forgo the higher strength and damage characteristic of a "normal" attack and just go on a mad rampage with less strength etc resulting in more hits (and wounds).

I never even considered that rule would even mean that you roll three dice per attack and pick the highest. But I guess you could interpret it like that as well...

It's pretty obvious here. Each attack you make a hit roll. The claws make 3 hit rolls for each attack and each one can cause a wound.

Also index/codex overrides rulebook. So rule book says for each attack you make 1 hit roll. Index says for each attack this model makes 3 hit rolls.

End result? It makes 3 to hit rolls for every attack, you then roll to wound for each successful hit, and then your opponent saves, etc.
There is nothing telling you to do otherwise in the book.

Being that they use a singular usage of the word "dice" as in "... a dice...." specifically, it seems rather clear to me that each die becomes it's own attack.

Yakface's post is correct. Slightly grey, wait for a FAQ, if not addressed in an FAQ, play it that each dice is it's own attack.

This might be verging on a necropost, but I found additional support that hits themselves inflict wounds. Gabriel Seth's Blood Reaver has a rule that states: "Each time you roll a hit roll of 6+ for this weapon, inflict one additional hit on the target." So hits cause wounds, or else it would be a meaningless rule (fought against Seth tonight - somehow I remembered reading this post).

Cheers

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
That's not what the rules say at all, though.
CRB 3.4.1 (close combat says refer to shooting) says, "Each time a model makes an attack, roll a dice. If the roll is equal to or greater than the attacking model's [WS], then it scores a hit with the weapon it's using."
3.4.2 then goes on to say that you get one wound roll for each successful ATTACK, NOT each successful hit. One attack can only produce one wound roll.

These types of weapons are essentially giving you re-rolls, increasing your chance to hit, eg. to represent "the size of the attacking weapon."

I still haven't seen any rules presented that allows for the model to make additional ATTACKS...only additional HITS, which are two separate things.
For reference, look at a chainsword or choppa, which give the model an additional ATTACK not hit. Or a Chapter Ancient (SM), which gives models in range an additional ATTACK not hit.
They're very clearly different things.

Sorry you are making a problem where there is none, you are just rules lawyering.
Of course that rule is intended to increase the number of attacks.

You could easily figure it out by taking a look at the example turn point number 3 at page 184 in the rulebook. They ARE making a wound roll for EACH hit.
Don´t bother arguing that point 3 is about shooting and you are talking about CC, point 5.5. clearly says cc is resolved the same way as shooting.

So please play the game and use your expensive toys instead of wasting your time twisting rules around.
Yes not all rules might be as clear as they could. But most of the "not so clear"-ones easily show you the way they are intended to work.
Often the first thought is the right one.

The rule are made for "fast and easy"-play more than in every other edition before and not to be fought out at the court.

There is no melee 3, like there is heavy 3 or rapid fire 2, for example. All melee weapons that have more than 1 attack have a written discription how many attacks the weapon has. You get to roll three dice to hit, and therefore you can inflict three wounds.

This should be pretty straightforward,

Combat weapons can't/don't add attacks to the profile. The wording is used specifically so that additional hits can be made with some CC weapons and not others: you could not have Old One Eye cite his Tresher Scythe as a cause to get 3 (x2) additional attacks with his Crushing Claws.

I can't imagine why if it was meant to function differently they would have worded it like Melta or something: 'roll 3 dice when rolling to hit and pick the highest result' etc

While I was lurking I was wondering if anyone would quote this section of the rules: Hit Roll: Each time a model makes an attack, roll a dice. If the roll is equal to or greater than the attacking model’s Ballistic Skill characteristic, then it scores a hit with the weapon it is using. If not, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends. A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply.

Any solution that requires us to treat any of the dice rolls as a 'failed result' of some sort of test will cause the entire sequence to abort before the question of how to generate Wounds or the likes even occurs. It is almost like other Rules that modify the number of dice being rolled during a single test go out of their way to contain additional instructions, such us informing us to use the highest result or add them all together. I am simply putting this down as a mistake by Game Workshop, in failing to inform us how to handle these additional dice, and letting my opponent do what seems to be the clear intention to many: A Melee 3 weapon.