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Hey all,

So I recently moved and the movers completely destroyed a box of my Orks. I was wondering if anyone could give me a rough estimate on how much it'd normally cost to get the contents propainted to tabletop level so I can take that to my insurance provider. I don't have records on what i paid to get them painted in the first place, since these were acquired over several years and I paid a lot of cash and don't keep great records:

60 Shoota Boyz w/ 2 power claw nobs and 6 big shootas
60 Slugga Boyz 2/ 2 power claw nobs
90 gretchen 3/ 9 runtherders
2 big meks w/ kff (metal versions)
1 snikrot
1 warboss w/ waagh banner
2 warbosses
30 lootas
15 tankbustas
15 burnas
30 burnas (metal version)
30 kommandos (5 metal)
15 meks
3 lobbas
3 kannons
3 zzap guns
15 stormboyz
10 ammo runts

I wouldn't waste your time here, you're going to need a firm, written quote from an established commission painter, perhaps even several, otherwise there's no way the insurance company is going to take the likely number even vaguely seriously.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I wouldn't waste your time here, you're going to need a firm, written quote from an established commission painter, perhaps even several, otherwise there's no way the insurance company is going to take the likely number even vaguely seriously.

In that case, do you have any suggestions about whom I should try contacting?

That is terrible, a big loss to the Ork community!

Can you even salvage the broken bits from that destroyed box or is it all completely gone (like, melted in a pool of lava or something)?

The only thing you could get at this point is market retail value. As mentioned, without a quote from a respected commission artist (and even then you'll be struggling) you're not going to get anywhere near the cost of time and effort.

Most insurance providers need receipts, and without that you won't see a dime. If the movers didn't offer to replace your miniatures, and the insurance provider cannot cover them, your only other recourse is small claims court. Even then, you need some sort of documentation.

Zodfrey wrote:
That is terrible, a big loss to the Ork community!

Can you even salvage the broken bits from that destroyed box or is it all completely gone (like, melted in a pool of lava or something)?

Smashed and crushed. I could probably salvage some of it for bitz, but over all, pretty bad.

 crazyfoxdemon wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I wouldn't waste your time here, you're going to need a firm, written quote from an established commission painter, perhaps even several, otherwise there's no way the insurance company is going to take the likely number even vaguely seriously.

In that case, do you have any suggestions about whom I should try contacting?

I'd suggest asking someone who isn't on the wrong side of the Atlantic. Use one of the higher profile ones or ask locally?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

teknoskan wrote:
The only thing you could get at this point is market retail value.

No, with a reasonable insurer he's got a fair chance of getting it paid out, provided he can meet burden of proof on cost. The insurance company need to reinstate the status quo before the damage, and that would include painting costs. You wouldn't expect them just to dump a load of replacement parts on your driveway after a car wreck, you'd expect the car to be repaired.

Of course, it all depends on the policy detail, but it's worth pursuing.

Wouldn't it in theory be a similar situation if you had commissioned someone to do a custom paintjob on a car for you, but had no receipt for the painting bill now? Thus, you'd ask a paint shop (or several) to give you a quote to do that kind of paint job.

If you've got proof that the event happened (i.e. photos, or whatever is left over of the item,) and proof of the cost to repeat the work? No.

All receipts are are evidence, and there's plenty of other ways to prove your claim. The most likely issue in this case is that there may well be a hard limit set on each incidence that the value of models plus commission will sail past.

If they are insured through home owners insurance then he will need to provide receipts of cost for the models and the paint jobs to cover them. Car insurance is different because you are insuring something that you already have proof of. In the case of these models, the company will determine the relative value versus the policy and determine how much he is owed for replacement. If he did not submit receipts of relative value at the time of the policy, then he will have to do so now.

The problem lies in the burden of proof. He can easily quote the cost of the models themselves. Artistic endeavors will vary, thus he could get multiple quotes, that doesn't mean he's covered by his policy.

So yes, at this point in the situation, he should atleast be covered for the retail value of his models.

He still has possession of the items, they're now simply in a state unfit for purpose. This is different from the items which have been destroyed in a fire, stolen etc where proof of purchase would be needed. Receipts would be needed to substantiate value, but there are other means of verifying value.

It'll end up being more of a negotiation to a point where you agree to a figure - but don't expect much.

If you do have a bunch of receipts and evidence, you may be able to adjust your value up a bit. If the insurance company is just trying to settle it quickly they may give you X% of simple MSRP of the kits - so at least start there.

An insurance company may also have a basic incidental limit on stuff in situations like this. For instance, if you crash your car with $1000 worth of something in the back seat, normally an automotive insurance company will only cover a fixed dollar amount (normally $250 or so). If you're hit by someone, their insurance company may cover more. It's possible your insurance policy may cover $_______ for damaged suffered during a move, etc.

For items like this, its entirely possible that the insurance company has no exact set policy - so it will be, as I said earlier, a bit of a negotiation.

Bare minimum as been mentioned would be to figure out the MSRP and go from there.

If you can somehow contact the people who originally painted your models and ask them for a quote, that might be the closest you can get to "proof" for this. Otherwise, getting the retail value of the models and paint is probably as close as you can get. Unfortunately, Insurance companies can't quantify labor without a receipt, as each person and company can vary greatly (especially if the price was negotiated). This is why custom-made things are usually insured for a specific amount prior to the incident; in those cases the insurance company doesn't need proof (other than the item is lost or destroyed), but is allowed to set your premiums based on how much you insured it for.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Unfortunately, Insurance companies can't quantify labor without a receipt, as each person and company can vary greatly (especially if the price was negotiated).

Which is completely tangenital to the point.

The insurance company has no interest in how much was paid, their only focus is reinstating the status quo for the least amount of money.

It doesn't matter if my whole army was pro painted by a Golden Daemon winner for the cost of a pint and a packet of peanuts because they were my friend, if the policy includes an appropriate level of cover to reinstate destroyed models to the same level, then the liability is on the insurance company to reimburse me appropriately at market rates to allow me to get that done again. If I obtained something at a once in a lifetime discount, that doesn't somehow prevent me from getting it replaced by insurance at normal market value. Receipts are required to prove that something was owned in the absence of any other proof, not to demonstrate how much something cost.

If you were referring to something automotive insurance related you'd be completely wrong actually.

Property insurance is, of course, different, but if the insurance company is willing to reimburse the labor, it will be at a generic market rate - unless you have receipts (and even then if the values or rates are beyond market rate you won't get them reimbursed).

 Azreal13 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Unfortunately, Insurance companies can't quantify labor without a receipt, as each person and company can vary greatly (especially if the price was negotiated).

Which is completely tangenital to the point.

The insurance company has no interest in how much was paid, their only focus is reinstating the status quo for the least amount of money.

It doesn't matter if my whole army was pro painted by a Golden Daemon winner for the cost of a pint and a packet of peanuts because they were my friend, if the policy includes an appropriate level of cover to reinstate destroyed models to the same level, then the liability is on the insurance company to reimburse me appropriately at market rates to allow me to get that done again. If I obtained something at a once in a lifetime discount, that doesn't somehow prevent me from getting it replaced by insurance at normal market value. Receipts are required to prove that something was owned in the absence of any other proof, not to demonstrate how much something cost.

Sounds a lot more fair there across the pond, but I had to deal with the insurance once and they only care about what the "current" value of the item is, and generally don't care about personal labor costs. If the OP has a receipt, then he has a lot more ground to stand on. Otherwise the base materials is basically all they will do. Note that here sometimes "current' value does not mean "enough to replace it". Airline companies are notorious for this because they will only pay out the "depreciated" value of an item lost by them, not the value needed to get a replacement. They will go as far as they're legally obligated and leave the rest in your lap, and they will do everything to reach that legal obligation point as fast and as cheaply as possible.

Again, if it was insured for a set amount, then that's a completely different story, but I'm assuming that wasn't the agreement.

EDIT: The insurance I had to deal with (or at least help with) was with a home invasion. Friend of mine had a lot of collectables stolen. Insurance company didn't give half a rat's ass about any perceived value of the items, only what it would cost to go to the store and pick up something of an identical brand and make. If it wasn't in writing, you were up a creek without a paddle.

 Elbows wrote:
If you were referring to something automotive insurance related you'd be completely wrong actually.

Property insurance is, of course, different, but if the insurance company is willing to reimburse the labor, it will be at a generic market rate - unless you have receipts (and even then if the values or rates are beyond market rate you won't get them reimbursed).

My old man, with over 3 decades (almost 4 thinking about it) working in property and automotive insurance agrees with me (I checked) and it is also my experience as well (I had a pretty wild period in my 20s where I broke a lot of cars) so either you're mistaken or it is one of those things where the US does things arse about face for no discernible reason.

For instance, I actually made a profit on one car I owned, as I bought it for around 20% under market value, but when it was written off, there wasn't a single example on the market for anything like the same price. As a consequence the assessor had no choice but to authorize a payment several hundred pounds more than I paid to enable me to buy another. I ultimately bought a completely different vehicle, but that was my choice, the insurance company had fulfilled their obligation to allow me to replace what I'd lost like for like.

I'm in canada so I can't speak for the US directly, but our insurance here can either be really helpful, or arsefaced. And 9 times out of 10 it's the latter.

Seriously I once tried to get a product with missing items replaced. I had to travel to three different stores and finally was asked to send the entire thing at my own expense to the company HQ, just to have my situation "assessed". I told them they could shove it because the cost of shipping would have costed me more than just going to get another one. With GW it's the opposite; they barely even ask for proof of purchase before dispatching something new to me. I was told that this was how customer service is suppose to work in the UK and GW is not the exception, so I'm fully in the belief that our consumer protection just sucks here.

EDIT: Note that if you are able to get the original painter to give you a receipt, no matter how long ago, it might still be valid. Otherwise general quotes from other reputable painter services might help, but not guaranteed. I'd ask around a lot before bringing it to your insurance.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Unfortunately, Insurance companies can't quantify labor without a receipt, as each person and company can vary greatly (especially if the price was negotiated).

Which is completely tangenital to the point.

The insurance company has no interest in how much was paid, their only focus is reinstating the status quo for the least amount of money.

It doesn't matter if my whole army was pro painted by a Golden Daemon winner for the cost of a pint and a packet of peanuts because they were my friend, if the policy includes an appropriate level of cover to reinstate destroyed models to the same level, then the liability is on the insurance company to reimburse me appropriately at market rates to allow me to get that done again. If I obtained something at a once in a lifetime discount, that doesn't somehow prevent me from getting it replaced by insurance at normal market value. Receipts are required to prove that something was owned in the absence of any other proof, not to demonstrate how much something cost.

Sounds a lot more fair there across the pond, but I had to deal with the insurance once and they only care about what the "current" value of the item is, and generally don't care about personal labor costs. If the OP has a receipt, then he has a lot more ground to stand on. Otherwise the base materials is basically all they will do. Note that here sometimes "current' value does not mean "enough to replace it". Airline companies are notorious for this because they will only pay out the "depreciated" value of an item lost by them, not the value needed to get a replacement. They will go as far as they're legally obligated and leave the rest in your lap, and they will do everything to reach that legal obligation point as fast and as cheaply as possible.

Again, if it was insured for a set amount, then that's a completely different story, but I'm assuming that wasn't the agreement.

EDIT: The insurance I had to deal with (or at least help with) was with a home invasion. Friend of mine had a lot of collectables stolen. Insurance company didn't give half a rat's ass about any perceived value of the items, only what it would cost to go to the store and pick up something of an identical brand and make. If it wasn't in writing, you were up a creek without a paddle.

It ultimately all boils down to the OP's cover. I'm assuming, as he said it was the movers who broke them, that he's claiming from the moving company and that their cover will be pretty comprehensive given the issues they did open themselves up to if it weren't could be business ending, but standard household will be much more limited, and as I enjoy already said, the value of the claim could well exceed the cap on payout irrespective of what things cost or what he can prove.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I'm in canada so I can't speak for the US directly, but our insurance here can either be really helpful, or arsefaced. And 9 times out of 10 it's the latter.

Seriously I once tried to get a product with missing items replaced. I had to travel to three different stores and finally was asked to send the entire thing at my own expense to the company HQ, just to have my situation "assessed". I told them they could shove it because the cost of shipping would have costed me more than just going to get another one. With GW it's the opposite; they barely even ask for proof of purchase before dispatching something new to me. I was told that this was how customer service is suppose to work in the UK and GW is not the exception, so I'm fully in the belief that our consumer protection just sucks here.

EDIT: Note that if you are able to get the original painter to give you a receipt, no matter how long ago, it might still be valid. Otherwise general quotes from other reputable painter services might help, but not guaranteed. I'd ask around a lot before bringing it to your insurance.

Missing items isn't an insurance matter, unless you'd lost them yourself. In which case "loss" in an insurance sense isn't "I don't know where they are" as much as "I know where they went, but I'm not getting them back" as simply misplacing something absent mindedly is frequently deemed taking insufficient care and will invalidate cover.

What GW do is simply customer services, and that's erratic wherever you are in the world..

I'm not saying the missing item is an insurance matter, I'm just using it as a comparable example where the UK version of the service is so much better and friendlier than the one we have here.

Not especially, we have a weekly live show on the BBC at prime time exclusively concerned with consumer affairs, it's just as much an issue in the U.K. as anywhere else, I promise you you'd have had every chance of the same experience here as you did there. Customer service is frequently unevenly applied, even within chains, and people frequently don't know when to dig their heels in because they're often unsure of their rights.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insurance is a little different these days as it is now very highly regulated under the same act of parliament that covers the banks and other financial bodies, which I suspect may be where any difference between U.K. and NA may stem from.

Then I must commend your old man for being what sounds like an honest businessman. Outside of GW and Lego, every time I had to deal with something like this it was like pulling teeth.

Maybe it's just me. I do tend to get the ass end of things in life.

He works for a reputable company, which makes a lot of a difference. People frequently choose the policy with the lowest premium, but often that little bit extra paid per year can pay huge dividends when a claim is needed.

(But Dad is conscientious, on one occasion he had a client have their Porsche 911 stolen from a petrol station forecourt because they'd left their keys in it when they went to pay for their fuel, he successfully argued with his employers that claim from a total denial to a partial payout based on an existong precedent he found for a similar situation with another insurer!)

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
If you were referring to something automotive insurance related you'd be completely wrong actually.

Property insurance is, of course, different, but if the insurance company is willing to reimburse the labor, it will be at a generic market rate - unless you have receipts (and even then if the values or rates are beyond market rate you won't get them reimbursed).

My old man, with over 3 decades (almost 4 thinking about it) working in property and automotive insurance agrees with me (I checked) and it is also my experience as well (I had a pretty wild period in my 20s where I broke a lot of cars) so either you're mistaken or it is one of those things where the US does things arse about face for no discernible reason.

For instance, I actually made a profit on one car I owned, as I bought it for around 20% under market value, but when it was written off, there wasn't a single example on the market for anything like the same price. As a consequence the assessor had no choice but to authorize a payment several hundred pounds more than I paid to enable me to buy another. I ultimately bought a completely different vehicle, but that was my choice, the insurance company had fulfilled their obligation to allow me to replace what I'd lost like for like.

For a fair market value, you'd be correct. However if it's an item outside of a policy you won't be refunded for the value of work or labor if that work or labor was way outside of market norms. If you mean getting something at discount and then being reimbursed for fair market value - you're correct. If you mean paying way more than market value, you will not be reimbursed for that at all.

Any insurance system which determines a market value will eliminate the outliers as far as value goes. So if you paid $900 to get some minis painted which everyone else paints or $200 --- you're not going to get that $700 back, at all. If that's what you were saying - then yes we're in agreement.

Yes, that's what I was saying. Cost to the consumer is irrelevant, whether they over or under paid for the goods or the service, the only cost the insurance company cares about is what it will cost them to fulfill their obligations to you under the terms of the policy, which is nearly always a like for like replacement or the closest available analogue. Therefore being able to prove what something cost you in the first instance (via receipts) is largely meaningless. Much more important being able to prove that you did actually own an item (receipts being one way to do that) and what the replacement cost of that item is currently (via quotes or similar.)

Believe it or not, the mover's insurance company may be more willing to negotiate than going through your own insurance company. Having my insurance license and working for an insurance company, here is my best advice:

1. Pull the retail costs of all items - this is what it will take to replace on the open market. For items no longer sold or OOP, you could look for replacements on Ebay, but these could be subject to negotiation - stick to your guns!!
2. You have the destroyed contents, so pictures of the painted quality are easy to get. Go ahead and get quotes from at least three commission companies to do this work. Hopefully, the average of the three will be in the ballpark. This may be up for fierce negotiation, too, but again, stick to your guns.

Good luck!!

When my apartment burned down I just listed what I valued the items at, and only in a few cases did the insurance request some reference (like a link to forgeworld etc).

Guess it depends on the insurance, but yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they want to settle without getting insurance involved.

You might want to consider claiming for the cost of the paints and other hobby materials (including brushes as these are also consumable) you will need to replace the models?

It's not like you can reuse the paint and glue already on the damage figures.

yeah, some insurance companies may actually have experience in dealing with "collectibles" or "miniatures" - and they know they can be quite expensive.

Give them an estimate, and see what they come back with.
Of course, you can offer to get an estimate from a firm - I would suggest sending the list to bluetable painting (or some other established place) and getting quote for models and painting.

We had an insurance claim at my home, and I was incredibly lucky that 90% of my gaming stuff was not harmed.
the stuff that was - my adjuster was familiar that some "hobby" stuff can be incredibly expensive.

This is becoming more and more common as the nerds of the 80's and 90s' are growing up and can spend thousands of dollars on comics, models and collectibles.