Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Seems like this edition has made it such that there is a heavy tendency to bring heavy weaponery in an army list. Multiple heavy support choices, Storm Ravens, knights, Baneblade, Shadowsword, Magnus, multiple platforms with lascannons (be it havocs, devastators, predators, etc). All these heavy hitters are are showing up because there is a need to be able to handle opposing heavy hitters. When army lists are capable of wiping out one or two SRs in the first turn, or Magnus in the first turn, then who gets to go first suddenly becomes the key determinate of who wins.

Its like if both sides brings enough heavy hitters that can delete 25% of an army in one turn. The person going first deletes off that 25% (likely the most critical 25%) and the person going second then has face the player with only 75% of his army left. We can possibly hope that objectives, and mission can mitigate this somewhat. But if an army gets tabled, its kinda irrelevant what the missions are because being tabled is still an auto lose. When the fire power of lists are so high such that 25% of an army can be deleted in one turn, you only need 4 turns to table an opponent.

What can be done to make a game of 40k more than just a case of who went first?

Los blocking terrain in or right near deployment zones.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Seems like this edition has made it such that there is a heavy tendency to bring heavy weaponery in an army list. Multiple heavy support choices, SR, knights, Stormlord, Magnus, multiple platforms with lascannons (be it havocs, devastators, predators, etc). All these heavy hitters are are showing up because there is a need to be able to handle opposing heavy hitters. When army lists are capable of wiping out one or two SRs in the first turn, or Magnus in the first turn, then who gets to go first suddenly becomes the key determinate of who wins.

Its like if both sides brings enough heavy hitters that can delete 25% of an army in one turn. The person going first deletes off that 25% (likely the most critical 25%) and the person going second then has face the player with only 75% of his army left. We can possibly hope that objectives, and mission can mitigate this somewhat. But if an army gets tabled, its kinda irrelevant what the missions are because being tabled is still an auto lose. When the fire power of lists are so high such that 25% of an army can be deleted in one turn, you only need 4 turns to table an opponent.

What can be done to make a game of 40k more than just a case of who went first?

Other than increasing LOS terrain, or making ranged combat less deadly, I fear the horses have left the barn on this issue. Your other option is to play smaller games. But even then its still a problem.

In my opinion, the best thing would be to switch to alternating actions ala Bolt Action. But that would take a major rework of 40k's gameplay.

I'm curious what are people seeing most: players trying to get first turn with very few unit drops? or players trying to get lots of CP's through the Brigade Detachment?
After looking at some of the reviews for the Space Marines Codex, it seems like CP's are going to be really powerful in paying for pre-game Stratagems & extra Relics. Perhaps there might be less concern with going first and more drive to field a Brigade in the near future?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Seems like this edition has made it such that there is a heavy tendency to bring heavy weaponery in an army list. Multiple heavy support choices, SR, knights, Stormlord, Magnus, multiple platforms with lascannons (be it havocs, devastators, predators, etc). All these heavy hitters are are showing up because there is a need to be able to handle opposing heavy hitters. When army lists are capable of wiping out one or two SRs in the first turn, or Magnus in the first turn, then who gets to go first suddenly becomes the key determinate of who wins.

Its like if both sides brings enough heavy hitters that can delete 25% of an army in one turn. The person going first deletes off that 25% (likely the most critical 25%) and the person going second then has face the player with only 75% of his army left. We can possibly hope that objectives, and mission can mitigate this somewhat. But if an army gets tabled, its kinda irrelevant what the missions are because being tabled is still an auto lose. When the fire power of lists are so high such that 25% of an army can be deleted in one turn, you only need 4 turns to table an opponent.

What can be done to make a game of 40k more than just a case of who went first?

I wonder if they could just re-work deployment to fix this. Like the player who goes first can only start with 1/3 of their army on the table, the rest come in from reserve in the following turn. And then also place some limitations on how many deep striking units you can include in your list. This, along with a big terrain-filled table I feel might fix this issue at least a little bit.

Yea, I feel its either brigades/battalions full of hordes (conscrips/brims) or elite lists that have massive guns screened by chaff/tarpits.

 benlac wrote:
I'm curious what are people seeing most: players trying to get first turn with very few unit drops? or players trying to get lots of CP's through the Brigade Detachment?
After looking at some of the reviews for the Space Marines Codex, it seems like CP's are going to be really powerful in paying for pre-game Stratagems & extra Relics. Perhaps there might be less concern with going first and more drive to field a Brigade in the near future?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Seems like this edition has made it such that there is a heavy tendency to bring heavy weaponery in an army list. Multiple heavy support choices, SR, knights, Stormlord, Magnus, multiple platforms with lascannons (be it havocs, devastators, predators, etc). All these heavy hitters are are showing up because there is a need to be able to handle opposing heavy hitters. When army lists are capable of wiping out one or two SRs in the first turn, or Magnus in the first turn, then who gets to go first suddenly becomes the key determinate of who wins.

Its like if both sides brings enough heavy hitters that can delete 25% of an army in one turn. The person going first deletes off that 25% (likely the most critical 25%) and the person going second then has face the player with only 75% of his army left. We can possibly hope that objectives, and mission can mitigate this somewhat. But if an army gets tabled, its kinda irrelevant what the missions are because being tabled is still an auto lose. When the fire power of lists are so high such that 25% of an army can be deleted in one turn, you only need 4 turns to table an opponent.

What can be done to make a game of 40k more than just a case of who went first?

I wonder if they could just re-work deployment to fix this. Like the player who goes first can only start with 1/3 of their army on the table, the rest come in from reserve in the following turn. And then also place some limitations on how many deep striking units you can include in your list. This, along with a big terrain-filled table I feel might fix this issue at least a little bit.

That reserve idea is a terrible one. Assault armies would have to start 12" further away from the enemy which is an extra turn of shooting at least. That would just make the heavy hitter problem worse. Also there are restrictions to the amount of stuff you can put in reserves, check the rulebook.

Alternating activations sounds good, it would keep both players more engaged in the game instead of waiting for your turn or rolling the "occasional" armor save. However as somebody already said it would be a big overhaul. That said, there is already alternation of turn during deployment and during the fight phase, so I don't see why that alternation could not be expanded to the shooting phase. That way your Big-And-Scary-Shooty-Monster-Or-Vehicle could at least have a chance of getting one turn of shooting in before getting deleted...

It's an even bigger problem now when cover doesn't work.

I've really not been finding my games playing out the way you have described at all. Perhaps that is because of a tendency towards resilient units and/or deep strikers in my play group. Or perhaps it is conservative deployment behind LoS blockers and such, I don't know.

I know I prefer to go second with about half my armies.

With GSC If you want to kill a few mortars, spore mines and/or sniper squads, then go nuts! Especially if you need to forward position to do so, makes it way easier for the Elysian Command Squads and/or Genestealers to deep-strike next to you.

With my DE/Ynarri mix, I don't mind first or second. Typically the only good targets for my opponents are a Tantalus, Wraithseer or Talos squad, all of which take a lot of fire to bring down and don't cripple the army if they die. Critical units are in reserve, embarked or out of los (usually single characters are out of LoS.

For Ad-Mech I prefer first, sure, but my Aegis Protocols on the Kastellans are up if my opponent goes first and the chaff screen (Snipers not conscripts) don't really care if they take a pounding. Sure I'll lose a bunch, but they don't really matter.

I can see this being a problem if you both take a lynchpin super heavy and then want to duke it out. My advice would don't do that. Take a number of small squads to surgically remove super heavies and then a balanced army (this does not mean weak, just an army with multiple ways to deal with threats).

An army loading up on lascannons will struggle against horde armies. Orks, IG and Nids may not be the most popular armies but hordes are doing well in early tournaments and dealing with 150 warm bodies is going to be just as important at dealing with multiple Storm Ravens, especially now that the Ravens no longer count as being "on the table" for the purpose of Sudden Death.

I play in a group of about 6 guys who have about 15 armies between them and I can attest to their being a real uptick in the amount of heavy weapons being laid out on the table. It's a natural consequence of the shift from AV to wounds on vehicles. Gone are the days of a single meltagun blasting a Land Raider to death. Instead you need about 1500 lascannon shots to drop the thing or 100 meltaguns. I'm seeing lots of Predators, Devastator Squads, Razorbacks, Lootas, Tankbustas, Dominions, Seraphim, Godhammer Land Raiders, IG lascannon teams, Scions, and so on. I find my Dark Angels taking 8 Lascannons in a list that used to have 2 or 3 in 7th. Individual units have way more firepower than they used to, and the sheer number of bullets flying around is crazy.

Yes it means that the first salvo can be crippling, but thankfully we are blessed with piles of terrain so it's not the end of the world to go second. It also means that armies are much smaller and die a lot faster, which brings up my biggest complaint in 8th edition. Going first or second hasn't really mattered in any of my games yet, but EVERY single game has been decided by turn 3. Both sides get torn to shreds and by turn 3 whoever has anything left will be the clear winner.

I miss having a game go all the way to turn 7 and be decided by the last dice throw....

IandI wrote:
I play in a group of about 6 guys who have about 15 armies between them and I can attest to their being a real uptick in the amount of heavy weapons being laid out on the table. It's a natural consequence of the shift from AV to wounds on vehicles. Gone are the days of a single meltagun blasting a Land Raider to death. Instead you need about 1500 lascannon shots to drop the thing or 100 meltaguns. I'm seeing lots of Predators, Devastator Squads, Razorbacks, Lootas, Tankbustas, Dominions, Seraphim, Godhammer Land Raiders, IG lascannon teams, Scions, and so on. I find my Dark Angels taking 8 Lascannons in a list that used to have 2 or 3 in 7th. Individual units have way more firepower than they used to, and the sheer number of bullets flying around is crazy.

Yes it means that the first salvo can be crippling, but thankfully we are blessed with piles of terrain so it's not the end of the world to go second. It also means that armies are much smaller and die a lot faster, which brings up my biggest complaint in 8th edition. Going first or second hasn't really mattered in any of my games yet, but EVERY single game has been decided by turn 3. Both sides get torn to shreds and by turn 3 whoever has anything left will be the clear winner.

I miss having a game go all the way to turn 7 and be decided by the last dice throw....

Don't you like having a bunch of quicker games over 1 long drawn out game though?

Drager wrote:
I've really not been finding my games playing out the way you have described at all. Perhaps that is because of a tendency towards resilient units and/or deep strikers in my play group. Or perhaps it is conservative deployment behind LoS blockers and such, I don't know.

I know I prefer to go second with about half my armies.

With GSC If you want to kill a few mortars, spore mines and/or sniper squads, then go nuts! Especially if you need to forward position to do so, makes it way easier for the Elysian Command Squads and/or Genestealers to deep-strike next to you.

With my DE/Ynarri mix, I don't mind first or second. Typically the only good targets for my opponents are a Tantalus, Wraithseer or Talos squad, all of which take a lot of fire to bring down and don't cripple the army if they die. Critical units are in reserve, embarked or out of los (usually single characters are out of LoS.

For Ad-Mech I prefer first, sure, but my Aegis Protocols on the Kastellans are up if my opponent goes first and the chaff screen (Snipers not conscripts) don't really care if they take a pounding. Sure I'll lose a bunch, but they don't really matter.

I can see this being a problem if you both take a lynchpin super heavy and then want to duke it out. My advice would don't do that. Take a number of small squads to surgically remove super heavies and then a balanced army (this does not mean weak, just an army with multiple ways to deal with threats).

As a newb Ad Mech player are you referencing using rangers or some other sniper units as a screen?

You can always take a hoard of small units big gun's don't do so well at damaging 27pt units or 15 pt characters

Yeah, if your local meta is skewing very heavily toward big units with big guns geared to fight other big units, you can troll them pretty hard by just bringing a mass of bodies.

Be like "Oh, that's a nice lascannon you got there, too bad it doesn't have any multi-wound models to shoot at".

Of course, this may result in them complaining that hordes are OP because they're not kitted to deal with them.

An idea I wanted to try out was in the first turn or first battle round, non-airborne units gain the benefit of cover.

Fluff-wise you can say it represents the army tactically approaching the battlefield and not just wandering out in the open. Or even the old dawn fight type rule from many editions ago (and maybe recent editions, I havent played since 4th).

Point being, every game ive seen so far has been over by turn 3, with a large amount of stuff just getting obliterated by that first turn salvo. Cover for everything doesnt seems like a huge change given the Lascannon type salvos are high AP weapons, but it could be enough of a difference maker to make the games be relevant a turn or two longer. Also allows you to place your terrain in more meaningful spots rather than having to crowd deployment zones.

 Karhedron wrote:
An army loading up on lascannons will struggle against horde armies. Orks, IG and Nids may not be the most popular armies but hordes are doing well in early tournaments and dealing with 150 warm bodies is going to be just as important at dealing with multiple Storm Ravens, especially now that the Ravens no longer count as being "on the table" for the purpose of Sudden Death.

Well, my lascannons come with 8 lasguns and 1 bolt gun.

I think a game that requires a combined arms approach for its take all comer lists is a healthy one though. GW should encourage that.

Jaynen wrote:

As a newb Ad Mech player are you referencing using rangers or some other sniper units as a screen?

As a new admech player myself who just got my 5th game under my belt, I can say that regardless of my opponent a screen is very important. Yes you 5 man bare bones vanguard are just going to be deleted but they are vital to making sure those onagers and kastellans do work. I play extremely fluffy lists and my group plays no special characters so I feel that without cawl I really need to make sure my heavies are pulling their weight. It also fits the fluff perfectly, skitarii would happily die in droves spraying radium carbine rounds at any enemy to keep the more important units safe, and if they wouldn't I'm sure the omnissiah(a tech priest monitoring the battle) would have no issue taping in and taking over so they will lol.

I miss having a game go all the way to turn 7 and be decided by the last dice throw....

'Deep strike' armies can punish shooty armies if the shooty army fails to bring enough stuff to form a proper screen. Something fairly basic like two Space Marine Assault Squads can tie up multiple units and prevent them from shooting, which will give the rest of your army time to close the distance. You can also cobble together a screen by charging cheap vehicles like Rhinos or Venoms into the most expensive enemy units and stop them from doing what they want.

Overall firepower just went way up somehow in 8th ed. Maybe its partly the structure of detachments. But there's no reason to bring troop type choices now if armies are likely to get tabled within 4 turns. And spearhead detachment means its perfectly legit to bring nothing but heavy support choices.

Sure, I could confound the preponderance of heavy firepower by bringing mass hordes. But not every faction can play hordes well. Space marine armies in general are not horde armies.

I could choose to bring a more balanced list, but if I am facing opponents who simply want to table me within 3 or 4 turns, what did bringing a balanced list do?

Jaynen wrote:

Drager wrote:
I've really not been finding my games playing out the way you have described at all. Perhaps that is because of a tendency towards resilient units and/or deep strikers in my play group. Or perhaps it is conservative deployment behind LoS blockers and such, I don't know.

I know I prefer to go second with about half my armies.

With GSC If you want to kill a few mortars, spore mines and/or sniper squads, then go nuts! Especially if you need to forward position to do so, makes it way easier for the Elysian Command Squads and/or Genestealers to deep-strike next to you.

With my DE/Ynarri mix, I don't mind first or second. Typically the only good targets for my opponents are a Tantalus, Wraithseer or Talos squad, all of which take a lot of fire to bring down and don't cripple the army if they die. Critical units are in reserve, embarked or out of los (usually single characters are out of LoS.

For Ad-Mech I prefer first, sure, but my Aegis Protocols on the Kastellans are up if my opponent goes first and the chaff screen (Snipers not conscripts) don't really care if they take a pounding. Sure I'll lose a bunch, but they don't really matter.

I can see this being a problem if you both take a lynchpin super heavy and then want to duke it out. My advice would don't do that. Take a number of small squads to surgically remove super heavies and then a balanced army (this does not mean weak, just an army with multiple ways to deal with threats).

As a newb Ad Mech player are you referencing using rangers or some other sniper units as a screen?

Elysian Sniper Teams, sorry wasn't clear.