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So the new edition been out for a little was wondering is there a meta or tier list for the armies yet or still to early?

ATC and ETC lists were a very specific Meta that GW has already hit hard with 2 big nerfs in the recent FAQ.

Some armies are tough.. but there really hasn't been any big tournaments as of now to get a decent grasp on the Meta yet.

BAO and Nova are the next 2 big tournaments in the next month. So we might get a gander at some meta.

I'm not sure GW is going to allow a Meta to last very long

Too early. People are still adapting (or steadfastly not adapting at all and complaining loudly).

People claim that IG are top tier but I've not had any huge problems against them yet and have gone 3-1 against them with Tyranids and Sisters so I'm not seeing it.

Check back in 6 months.

Alpha strike with focus to table by turn three is the competitive meta right now.

Pancakey wrote:
Alpha strike with focus to table by turn three is the competitive meta right now.

More like Halfa strike

you cant put away more than half your stuff and reserving doesn't help you gain first turn.

Biggest meta so far was the flyer spam one with storm ravens. but that got nerfed so its up in the air (il see myself out)

dont expect to see abuse lists stay too long in the top lists.

I predict that CP spamming raven guard first strike lists to get popular.

Alpha strike is the competitive meta. It's part of why stormraven's were good. They were concentrated firepower that could hit the enemy turn one, you weren't laying down as many units so better chance of first turn, and they were resistant to most shooting meaning you had a better chance of withstanding if you went second.

Alpha strike is still going to be the meta, arguably getting first turn is even more important now with flyers not counting for tabling, as they actually were reasonable good at preventing it.

SilverAlien wrote:
Alpha strike is the competitive meta. It's part of why stormraven's were good. They were concentrated firepower that could hit the enemy turn one, you weren't laying down as many units so better chance of first turn, and they were resistant to most shooting meaning you had a better chance of withstanding if you went second.

Alpha strike is still going to be the meta, arguably getting first turn is even more important now with flyers not counting for tabling, as they actually were reasonable good at preventing it.

Sorry when i hear alpha strikes i keep thinking null deployment for some reason.

Yeah first striking to cripple the enemy seems to be the way this game is going now.

That's the way the game has always gone.

 Arandmoor wrote:
That's the way the game has always gone.

Whats new is being able to reliably put out 100+ shots a turn.

Is there any wargame in which killing a good portion of your opponent's army before it has a chance to act is disadvantageous?

Assault Cannon Razorback spam backed up by Roboute Guilliman seems to be very boring but effective.

Even 2 ravens has a brutal alpha, and they are hard to take down unless you devote a significant part of your army to doing so.

Alpha is the meta.

Pancakey wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:
That's the way the game has always gone.

Whats new is being able to reliably put out 100+ shots a turn.

That's not new. I've been putting out more dice than can fit in my hand from a single unit since 5th Edition!

I've noticed armies getting tabled way faster this edition, and having a bigger bucket of dice probably has some to do with it, but I'm not sure if that's the whole story.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Pancakey wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:
That's the way the game has always gone.

Whats new is being able to reliably put out 100+ shots a turn.

That's not new. I've been putting out more dice than can fit in my hand from a single unit since 5th Edition!

I've noticed armies getting tabled way faster this edition, and having a bigger bucket of dice probably has some to do with it, but I'm not sure if that's the whole story.

You notice armies are getting tabled way faster because of more dice.

Thats the difference. YOU may have been rolling a lot of dice in the past but now ANYONE can dump a bucket of dice on thier opponent turn one with relative ease.

Sim-Life wrote:
Too early. People are still adapting (or steadfastly not adapting at all and complaining loudly).

People claim that IG are top tier but I've not had any huge problems against them yet and have gone 3-1 against them with Tyranids and Sisters so I'm not seeing it.

Check back in 6 months.

I mean... a lot of people are bring Sisters and calling it IG, and vice versa OR bringing a ton of Space Marines and calling it Sisters and vice versa...

Even then Sisters are ALSO considered top tier, so doing well against another Top Tier by USING another Top Tier isn't saying much

Gunline armies are dominating.

Ravenspam was an exception but it's gone now.

You need ridiculous mobility to not get shot off of the table before turn 2.

Every game is either a gunline, or 50% in reserve.

A lot of it I think is just how terrain has changed. Terrain is negated by AP, difficult terrain no longer exists, and LoS blocking terrain is much rarer now. Altogether it's easier to get within 12" on the first turn, where a lot of really powerful weapons are (and where any rapid-fire weapon doubles its damage output), it's easier to draw LoS on stuff, and you're less likely to see people actually rolling 4+/3+ saves unless they're Space Marines because AP will remove their cover as well as their armor.

Assault has gotten more lethal as well though, turn-1 assaults are easier or trivial for a lot of armies (and again, no difficult terrain to slow them down). Additionally, if you stay in combat you actually get twice as many attacks as you used to. Because *both* engaged units fight in both players' fight phases.

So before, a combat would go like this:
End of your assault phase: your units attack
End of their assault phase: their units attack

But now it goes like this:
Your fight phase: your units attack, then their units attack
Their fight phase: their units attack, then your units attack

So everyone is swinging twice as often as before.

The meta is alpha right now because of 8th ed's wound chart. Weapons overall became deadlier because now you have things like heavy bolters wounding Leman russes on a 5+ and reducing their armor save. The overall increase to the number of wounds on models in the game hasn't fully compensated for this increased lethality, especially when you throw in stat degradation. In 8th ed if I want to win I just say to myself "what packs the most offensive punch per point spent with the least chance of it getting destroyed on the first turn." I don't bother looking for a distraction carnifex because -everything- dies too fast for it to distract for long.

This is why as an IG player, when I want to win, I just spam mobile firepower that can't miss (hellhounds), deadly firepower that can't be killed before it strikes anywhere on the board I want (scions with plasma), and stationary unlimited range LoS ignoring firepower that sits in the back out of line of sight or out of range of being shot at all (Basilisks and manticore).

 ross-128 wrote:

So before, a combat would go like this:
End of your assault phase: your units attack
End of their assault phase: their units attack

But now it goes like this:
Your fight phase: your units attack, then their units attack
Their fight phase: their units attack, then your units attack

So everyone is swinging twice as often as before.

Everyone always fought when locked in combat. That's not new

It takes 6 months for the meta to fully shake out.

 ross-128 wrote:


So before, a combat would go like this:
End of your assault phase: your units attack
End of their assault phase: their units attack

But now it goes like this:
Your fight phase: your units attack, then their units attack
Their fight phase: their units attack, then your units attack

So everyone is swinging twice as often as before.

uh?!?!?

 ross-128 wrote:
A lot of it I think is just how terrain has changed. Terrain is negated by AP, difficult terrain no longer exists, and LoS blocking terrain is much rarer now. Altogether it's easier to get within 12" on the first turn, where a lot of really powerful weapons are (and where any rapid-fire weapon doubles its damage output), it's easier to draw LoS on stuff, and you're less likely to see people actually rolling 4+/3+ saves unless they're Space Marines because AP will remove their cover as well as their armor.

Assault has gotten more lethal as well though, turn-1 assaults are easier or trivial for a lot of armies (and again, no difficult terrain to slow them down). Additionally, if you stay in combat you actually get twice as many attacks as you used to. Because *both* engaged units fight in both players' fight phases.

So before, a combat would go like this:
End of your assault phase: your units attack
End of their assault phase: their units attack

But now it goes like this:
Your fight phase: your units attack, then their units attack
Their fight phase: their units attack, then your units attack

So everyone is swinging twice as often as before.

don't know what edition of 40k you've been playing but you've ALWAYS had both sides fight in the assault phase.

 chrispy1991 wrote:
The meta is alpha right now because of 8th ed's wound chart. Weapons overall became deadlier because now you have things like heavy bolters wounding Leman russes on a 5+ and reducing their armor save. The overall increase to the number of wounds on models in the game hasn't fully compensated for this increased lethality, especially when you throw in stat degradation. In 8th ed if I want to win I just say to myself "what packs the most offensive punch per point spent with the least chance of it getting destroyed on the first turn." I don't bother looking for a distraction carnifex because -everything- dies too fast for it to distract for long.

This is the new reality.

Before 8th dropped I had mentioned that even though wounds on everythig were going way up, the new blistering firepower would see eveyones models being removed from the board at a pace never seen before.

Also remember that team tournaments like ATC and ETC are completely different beasts than regular tournaments, you take different lists so you can force certain matchups, guard against others, etc. IMHO the team events are really not indicative of anything concrete because their format lends themselves to very specific ways of building.

 Karhedron wrote:
Assault Cannon Razorback spam backed up by Roboute Guilliman seems to be very boring but effective.

Not saying thats a bad list but relic standard with gulliman and a bunch of devs/hellblasters/intercessors is way better.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Pancakey wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:
That's the way the game has always gone.

Whats new is being able to reliably put out 100+ shots a turn.

That's not new. I've been putting out more dice than can fit in my hand from a single unit since 5th Edition!

I've noticed armies getting tabled way faster this edition, and having a bigger bucket of dice probably has some to do with it, but I'm not sure if that's the whole story.

The reason is because in 7th edition there were ways to make your units extremely hard to kill. Invisibility, "Look out, sir", 2+ rerollable saves, 5+ feel no pain. Stacking all of those things on one model.

8th has removed some of these layers of defence, toned down others and mainly prevented them from stacking... but done little to tone down the damage output. In fact in many places it's increased.

More damage + Less defence = Better alpha strikes, more tablings, quicker games.

I don't mind it at all, but 40k is definitely not a game for people who like cautious camping and defending right now.

How are nids doing in this edition? thinking out getting a new army, would anyone help me with what are really strong armies to get? or some of the best armies?

 Silentz wrote:

The reason is because in 7th edition there were ways to make your units extremely hard to kill. Invisibility, "Look out, sir", 2+ rerollable saves, 5+ feel no pain. Stacking all of those things on one model.

8th has removed some of these layers of defence, toned down others and mainly prevented them from stacking... but done little to tone down the damage output. In fact in many places it's increased.

More damage + Less defence = Better alpha strikes, more tablings, quicker games.

I don't mind it at all, but 40k is definitely not a game for people who like cautious camping and defending right now.

I agree with the points about offense being king and defending is a bad strategy. I would add concentrated firepower is now a thing. Focusing on shot volume plus high damage from a blob wins games.

My CSM lists are now mostly Noise Marines, combi-weapon Terminators and Laspreds. I bunch everything on one side of the table and steamroll across while teleporting in Terminators to take out distant threats.

There were no assaults in the game I played last night against Eldar, nothing ever got close enough to charge.

Personally I'll be entertained if people start complaining about GW hammering down things, and fast.

Because before, the subject of complaint was things being rebalanced too slowly.

I hope it doesn't come to that, it would be a joke.

The game needs a mechanic to cut back on the Alpha Strike, Just something simple....maybe every model counts as moving (although there are so many that ignore that anyway), or maybe just a simple -1 to hit across the board for first player.

Ashas been mentioned many times though, the table needs a lot of LOS blocking terrain. As a player, you should have the ability to use cover and hide some units so they don't get pulverized first turn.