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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

I am very much one of those people that likes to have games that involve loads of infantry and close combat. Its really great when you have two fully painted 4k armies with over a 100 models a side duking it out. Its not that I dislike tanks, planes and general dakka. But it should be a supporting arm and you shouldn't be forced to mechanize your army. It was perfectly viable, IMO, in a friendly match to just have a ton of marines run across the board with chainswords in 3/4 edition. The game should play out like a game of chess with an emphasis on maneuver and map control.

Clearly heresy just isn't built to support this. The game overwhelmingly favors heavy gunline, aircraft bourne terminators and a few tacticals in rhinos. To give an extreme example, a group of 3 quad launchers with phosphex is about the same as a twenty man tactical squad. Now, that phosphex can kill the tactical squad in one turn; easily. My tactical squad would be lucky to make its points back and frequently they just die where they stand. Which reflects the games points system under which either infantry are horrendously overcosted, or your leviathans, tanks, plane and such are undercosted. Whats the point of 20 man ultra breacher squad with swords when I can take two kitted out leviathans for the same price? So units that are immune to most weapons in the game and can kill equivalent infantry units five times over aren't appropriately costed.

Plus, the game massively favors shooting. You simply cannot use foot bound infantry. The only close combat units that actually work involve transports (which I don't like), planes (which I don't like) and apothecaries (which I don't like).

Close combat units are also really not balanced. If elite close combat units are only double or triple the cost of a tactical but vastly more effective then where the incentive to use infantry.

On related point, is the sheer lethality of the game. I've had people at my club wax lyrical about how the game is tactical and strategic. It isn't. You need options and you can't have options if most of your armies are dead by turn 2 and have barely left their deployment zone. How can I secure objectives when my opponent can delete them in a turn of shooting from phosphex? I don't at all believe that you should be able to destroy a 4k army in two turns from a handful of unit and I have seen this happen many times.

I mean its annoying because I've spent a lot of money and many days making a few hundred marines between my three armies and constantly being wrecked by turn 2 because "oh you should load them all up in rhinos", "oh you should take a predator squadron", "oh you should take less infantry". See if I wanted to be that guy, I would just have bought a titan and killed them everytime. If the game is built so that I can't play it the way I want to then why should I bother? I mean currently I feel like everyone of these games plays out the same way, I try to cross the board and get cut to pieces by turn 2.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 15:26:40


Sylvaneth Starting
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Made in gb
Martial Arts SAS





UK

Thats not the games fault. Thats your opponents. They choose to use certain lists. Thats on them and you. Try talking to them to see if you can play how you want. Its not hard to speak. Instead of whining on a forum whine to your friends. Its not the game you have an issue with. Its you and your friends
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




 Motograter wrote:
Thats not the games fault. Thats your opponents. They choose to use certain lists. Thats on them and you. Try talking to them to see if you can play how you want. Its not hard to speak. Instead of whining on a forum whine to your friends. Its not the game you have an issue with. Its you and your friends


Exactly my issue with 40k players they whined about there game not their opponents and got the game changed (not for the better) and it'll be the same thing all over again. Heresy for me has been fine it's fun it's balanced and it feels themeatic that's all that's needed.
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!





Nottingham

I don't think it is the opponent's fault at all. If player A prefers infantry lists, and player B prefers a wide mix of the available options, that's absolutely fine for both. Neither though should be asking the other player to buy models to create lists that fulfill their own idea of what the game should be. It doesn't sound like the op's opponents are list tailoring or spamming powerful units.

To OP, I'd try asking opponents before the game if they would be prepared to use an infantry heavy list, or an amended FoC that limits other unit types. If they agree to the challenge, you've got the game you want. I don't think it is unusual though for people to want great models, and then to want to use them in games.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




Have you tried playing Centurion rules ?
   
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Yup feel the same. The fluff is about these vast legions of Tacticals duking it out but you'd never know it to look at an actual game. Centurion is only a bit of a band aid IMO.
   
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Totalwar1402 - you are a fluff gamer; i'll bet they only ever use veterans and terminators as compulsory troops.

Where in the UK are you at?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/733159.page
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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

Whats Centurion?

You can't really address this because most of them consider themselves to be fluffy gamers and argue that their armies are in keeping with the fluff. So they have a very preconceived notion over what is abusing the game.

Generally speaking:

* No Lords of War; especially Primarchs.
* No Primus Medicae
* Artifacer serg.

They are however lists which have a lot more expensive shooty units and a lower reliance on troops. But they would argue that theres nothing wrong with their army lists and that they actually have quite a lot of infantry.

Simply put I always feel as if my troops choices are a waste of points and contribute nothing to winning the battle. So my ultra army is basically a few tanks that may get stuff done, but the rest is basically just there to die. In fact my Emperors Children army has a good 40 marines in it whose sole purpose is to stand and get slaughtered until the outflankers get in on turn 2. All of which is down to heavy weapons, tanks and other expensive stuff. This would be fine if troops were reasonably costed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 13:59:30


Sylvaneth Starting
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Inside Yvraine

 Motograter wrote:
Thats not the games fault. Thats your opponents. They choose to use certain lists. Thats on them and you. Try talking to them to see if you can play how you want. Its not hard to speak. Instead of whining on a forum whine to your friends. Its not the game you have an issue with. Its you and your friends
"Its not the games fault people are using units that exist in the game".

Lol, when will this meme end?

"They said to forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned? They said to forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war? Hold my drink." - Roboute Guilliman, 999.M41 
   
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Gun Mage





Washington State

Yeah, I'm reading this, and all I'm seeing is
...a group of 3 quad launchers with phosphex...
,
... two kitted out leviathans...
,
... "oh nah, you've got your Primarch in a Spartan with 10 terminators and a primus medicae."


And my favorite quote of all
The only close combat units that actually work involve transports (which I don't like), planes (which I don't like) and apothecaries (which I don't like).
.

If I am understanding the argument correctly, the OP doesn't like his opponents taking powerful units, while he takes a Deathstar, and then lists all the ways to counter the hard units he is having difficulty with by saying "which I don't like".

Yup. Definitely the game's fault.

Why doesn't the OP just tell his opponents he doesn't want to face Quad Launchers and Leviathans, and then stop fielding his own Deathstar (the ultimate )?

The only thing that could possibly make this post better would be if the OP was a Thousand Sons player using Magnus and his Sekhet Terminators...

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

 Tamwulf wrote:
Yeah, I'm reading this, and all I'm seeing is
...a group of 3 quad launchers with phosphex...
,
... two kitted out leviathans...
,
... "oh nah, you've got your Primarch in a Spartan with 10 terminators and a primus medicae."


And my favorite quote of all
The only close combat units that actually work involve transports (which I don't like), planes (which I don't like) and apothecaries (which I don't like).
.

If I am understanding the argument correctly, the OP doesn't like his opponents taking powerful units, while he takes a Deathstar, and then lists all the ways to counter the hard units he is having difficulty with by saying "which I don't like".

Yup. Definitely the game's fault.

Why doesn't the OP just tell his opponents he doesn't want to face Quad Launchers and Leviathans, and then stop fielding his own Deathstar (the ultimate )?

The only thing that could possibly make this post better would be if the OP was a Thousand Sons player using Magnus and his Sekhet Terminators...


That isn't what I said. I am saying that it is what they say about other players. They usually say that they like my army because it has a lot of troops and doesn't have a lot of the filth in other armies. I think I've only ever used Gulliman twice and Fulgrim once out of something like 30 games. Both times left me thinking a Fellblade would be better. My point is that they are self righteous and would insist their armies are fairly built. Never used a Primus Medicae and Gulli was on foot one time whilst Fulgrim was in a plane. Plus those three times were against a close friend rather than other club members who would just moan if I did take a Primarch. So basically I have never used a Primarch. I mean I can't imagine why I would want to use the £70 model I spent a week painting...

What I want is to be able to take 40 sword breachers on foot and not have them die on turn 2. To have large scale close combats involving a large number of units rather than the game being decided by shooting on turn 2. To have the game be more about map control and less about power units and list building. Games should be decided late game in a large close combat or decided by objectives. They should not boil down to getting first turn and tabling your opponent with shooting.

Ultramarines and Emperors Children are my two main heresy armies. Not Thousand Sons, which I haven't played yet but I have heard are awful.

Yes I am the guy who wants to put a 100 marines on the board. I don't want to put 30 marines on the board and take 6 tanks with a few dread's to not get tabled on turn three. I should have the freedom to make any list I want. The game is based on a points system. In theory, any army I make should always be as effective as another force irrespective of what I buy. Otherwise the system is inherently imbalanced. If a tactical blob isn't worth as much as a leviathan then the leviathan should be that much more expensive. That's just common sense.

Its not fun when your games devolve into "oh you can't kill that". Of course 40 marines can't stop a leviathan dread. Of course 60 marines can't stop three fliers. Of course these units you sink thousands of points into can't deal with tanks. The Emperors Children army is a particular problem since I can't get fluffy dakka into the army and I want it to be a close combat army.

Well TBH I am just not going to play the people who use quad launchers or Thousand Sons. In fact I am not putting myself into the club tournament because I am that fed up with the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 15:18:29


Sylvaneth Starting
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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Totalwar wrote:
Well TBH I am just not going to play the people who use quad launchers or Thousand Sons. In fact I am not putting myself into the club tournament because I am that fed up with the game.

Please don't lump Thousand Sons players in with quad mortar spam. Not all of us are flavour of the month cheese festers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Damned if I can find the ruleset , but Centurion is HH with no tanks. Infantry, skimmers and dreads only, with a cap of one Leviathan.

Play on heavy terrain board, and have fun.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 15:59:18


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




In my experience the army that is more inline with the lore of the force it is representing comes out on top 90% of the time when the controlling player plays sensibly. I have IF and have a few mortar type weapons and a few terminators the rest is breachers and tactical marines, I also have DG that is all tactical marines and terminators, not got any dreads for them yet, and all of my games have been close down to the wire.
   
Made in gb
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions




Nottingham / Sheffield

1. Stop playing 4000pt games.
4k is an apocalypse scale game in my opinion.
Seriously, list building is an integral part of the game and the difference between a 'hard' 4k list and a casual 4k list can be astonishing. Running 100 tacticals into 4k of quad mortars, knights, titan and primarchs is only going make you utterly miserable.
I reckon it is likely that you could be T1 tabled by a 'hard' 4k list. I drafted a 'hard' 4k list in Battlescribe and it includes a casual Warhound Scout Titan in the LoW slot and 12 phosphex quads. Alternatively, I can draft everything on my painting table into a 4k list and expect to loose by turn 2.

2. Play Zone Mortalis games.
ZM make almost all of the anti-fun units redundant. They either can't fit (Leviathans and to some extent the primarch-star) or can't fire (barrage weapons). It is tactical, fast, and brutal. There are options and the games are usually won by good play and by playing the objectives rather than murdering everything on the board.

3. Change
Change something, either your attitude towards the game or who you are playing with.
These are all important options, you have the models to run interesting, capable 4k lists but that will require you to change your attitude to how you draft a list.
Playing with different people is an option, if you can organise a casual game with other less competetively minded people, do it.

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Neronoxx wrote:
...for the love of god can we drop the flipping jokes?
They might go over peoples heads....
 
   
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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I should have the freedom to make any list I want.


But apparently your opponents shouldn't have the same freedom.

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DaemonJellybaby wrote:
1. Stop playing 4000pt games.
4k is an apocalypse scale game in my opinion.



For me 4000 isn't apocalypse, 2000 is a small game 3k is a standard game 4K a large one, it's only apocalypse when you hit 6k.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Found a link to Centurion rules for anyone interested

https://archive.org/download/CENTURION1.1/CENTURION%201.1.pdf
   
Made in gb
Happy We Found Our Primarch





East, UK

Your local meta seems horrible. I think you need to start playing with new people.

The game is fine as it is, pretty well balanced all considered (phosphex quads nonwithstanding). The limits proposed by your group (and your own personal limits) are whats channeling your games into the same outcome. I might ask however, how do the rest of your gaming group feel about eachothers armies?

Id also recommend you start playing the scenarios from the campaign books, they can force you to play differently and favour different army styles as the books go on. An infantry army can be crazy strong in some of them. Especially Ultras.

But yeah, id say your local meta sucks. Not the game.

Ave Dominus Nox 
   
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Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions




Nottingham / Sheffield

TeAXIIIT13 wrote:
DaemonJellybaby wrote:
1. Stop playing 4000pt games.
4k is an apocalypse scale game in my opinion.



For me 4000 isn't apocalypse, 2000 is a small game 3k is a standard game 4K a large one, it's only apocalypse when you hit 6k.


My point, that I didnt really explain, is that the larger the game is, the more unbalanced / unfair the game has the potential to be.
At 2-2.5k, there are serious decisions about what you take. Each choice is meaningful and should be thought of as part of a greater whole. Both players are restricted by the points level, rather than thier collection.
Beyond 3k, this can erode into 'a bit of anything' rather than carefully considered choices, such that a planned out 4k army can table a less considered force of the same value.

Project Log
Neronoxx wrote:
...for the love of god can we drop the flipping jokes?
They might go over peoples heads....
 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




DaemonJellybaby wrote:
TeAXIIIT13 wrote:
DaemonJellybaby wrote:
1. Stop playing 4000pt games.
4k is an apocalypse scale game in my opinion.



For me 4000 isn't apocalypse, 2000 is a small game 3k is a standard game 4K a large one, it's only apocalypse when you hit 6k.


My point, that I didnt really explain, is that the larger the game is, the more unbalanced / unfair the game has the potential to be.
At 2-2.5k, there are serious decisions about what you take. Each choice is meaningful and should be thought of as part of a greater whole. Both players are restricted by the points level, rather than thier collection.
Beyond 3k, this can erode into 'a bit of anything' rather than carefully considered choices, such that a planned out 4k army can table a less considered force of the same value.


I find it's the other way around, the more points you have the more freedom you get with your list to bring more of an all comers, were as in a smaller points game if you are playing against"that guy" then your stuck with trying to beat the shenanigans unit/s that they bring, when you've got the biggest points limit you should build a core for your army that is your infantry and then bring your quad mortars, tanks and planes as support elements, like any real military, that's how the game was designed but was left open so players could choose to do the crazy battles like "here's my unit of all the primarches to take on all your titans" type games some people want to do because it would be a cool challenge.
   
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Lesser Daemon of Chaos





I don't get all the hate for Phosphex quads. Unless you're taking 6 in a list. For 3 quads with shatter and Phosphex, you pay 240 points plus at least another 95 for a barebones siege breaker. In most of my games I maybe fire the Phosphex once or twice a game as I usually need the shatter shells more. Tons of units can shrug it off like Terminators, Gal Vorbak and Custodes, mechanized units ignore it all together. Sure it's a bad match up if you run footslogging infantry, but you can still get around that with smart unit selection.
Last game I played against a 3 Quad unit, I got hammered turn one, then turn 2 my HB sniper vets outflanked and wiped the whole unit. Dreads in pods, fliers, deepstriking units with plasma or long range artillery can wipe them out. It's a tough as nails unit but it's not an autowin, unkillable unit as some people like to bemoan.
   
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Gun Mage





Washington State

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
I don't get all the hate for Phosphex quads. Unless you're taking 6 in a list. For 3 quads with shatter and Phosphex, you pay 240 points plus at least another 95 for a barebones siege breaker. In most of my games I maybe fire the Phosphex once or twice a game as I usually need the shatter shells more. Tons of units can shrug it off like Terminators, Gal Vorbak and Custodes, mechanized units ignore it all together. Sure it's a bad match up if you run footslogging infantry, but you can still get around that with smart unit selection.
Last game I played against a 3 Quad unit, I got hammered turn one, then turn 2 my HB sniper vets outflanked and wiped the whole unit. Dreads in pods, fliers, deepstriking units with plasma or long range artillery can wipe them out. It's a tough as nails unit but it's not an autowin, unkillable unit as some people like to bemoan.


I'd like to learn more details about this. Let's look at this for a second: Your opponent set up his his 6 Space Marines and 3 Quad Mortars close enough to the side table edges that you were able to shoot them off the table on Turn 2? Or where they in a corner of their deployment zone, and you rolled your 4+ for reserves, then another Outflank roll enabling you to place your models close enough to gun down and then presumably assault? THEN, you rolled enough 6's to give you Precision Shots and 6's to wound to ignore armor saves and the artillary unit rules? I guess I'm a little confused how you were able to pull this off without some remarkable luck.

This is a viable tactic, but it's an unreliable tactic, and you're chasing points with points. While the vet squad will eventually wipe out the mortar unit, depending on how many turns of shooting the mortar has before it's engaged by the vet Squad, it could very much have made up it's points and then some. Each time this unit shoots, it's leaving 12 3" zones of death that move around and stay on the table until the end of the game. It's a frustrating unit to face- it doesn't require line of sight, has stupid long range, kills regular infantry on a 3+, and leaves 3" zones of death on the table.

"Dreads in Pods"- ignoring the fact that Dreads are just a bad unit to take in the first place, but I would hope a 300 point unit can kill a 300 point unit. And again, such a unit has to make some pretty good rolls to be placed in just the right spot for this. Deepstriking units with Plasma- what units are these? Who has them? Fliers and Long Range artillery are about the best way to counter the Phosphex Mortar squad, but that all depends on the Legion you are using and the RIte of War you have.

Phosphex Mortars are not unkillable, but they are too cheap, too effective, don't require any real strategy to play with, don't require line of sight, and leave behind the templates that can be moved around during subsequent turns, and can have some real wound shenanigans due to the artillery unit rule. They can be parked in the back end of your deployment zone in cover, and just rain Phosphex Death onto the table. Sure, the elite units with a 2+ and vehicles pretty much ignore them, but those units usually can't hold objectives, and troops eventually have to get out of transports. They are just not fun to play against.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman




 Tamwulf wrote:

I'd like to learn more details about this. Let's look at this for a second: Your opponent set up his his 6 Space Marines and 3 Quad Mortars close enough to the side table edges that you were able to shoot them off the table on Turn 2? Or where they in a corner of their deployment zone, and you rolled your 4+ for reserves, then another Outflank roll enabling you to place your models close enough to gun down and then presumably assault? THEN, you rolled enough 6's to give you Precision Shots and 6's to wound to ignore armor saves and the artillary unit rules? I guess I'm a little confused how you were able to pull this off without some remarkable luck.


1) Assuming 6" movement from rhino, 6" disembark, 12" rapid fire from bolters, the quad mortars could have been close to the centre of the table.

2) Reserves arrive a 3+, getting the side you want on outflank is a 2/3 chance. and you cannot assault in the turn you arrive from reserves

3) Assuming a bare bones 10 man Veteran Tactical squad with 2 heavy bolters, you'd be looking at causing a little over 5.2 wounds on average as sniper means you wound on a 4+, not including any additional fire from the rhino itself.

 Tamwulf wrote:

This is a viable tactic, but it's an unreliable tactic, and you're chasing points with points. While the vet squad will eventually wipe out the mortar unit, depending on how many turns of shooting the mortar has before it's engaged by the vet Squad, it could very much have made up it's points and then some. Each time this unit shoots, it's leaving 12 3" zones of death that move around and stay on the table until the end of the game. It's a frustrating unit to face- it doesn't require line of sight, has stupid long range, kills regular infantry on a 3+, and leaves 3" zones of death on the table.


Phosphex cannisters only have a range of 36", the blast markers can only be moved to cover more models, and only 2", and cannot be spread out to cover more area. as the multiple barrage rules will leave you with a clustered area. Secondly they leave behind dangerous terrain for infantry and open topped vehicles, so a rhino etc can just drive straight through., even a 20 man tactical squad running through it will only lose 1 man on average.

 Tamwulf wrote:

"Dreads in Pods"- ignoring the fact that Dreads are just a bad unit to take in the first place, but I would hope a 300 point unit can kill a 300 point unit. And again, such a unit has to make some pretty good rolls to be placed in just the right spot for this. Deepstriking units with Plasma- what units are these? Who has them? Fliers and Long Range artillery are about the best way to counter the Phosphex Mortar squad, but that all depends on the Legion you are using and the RIte of War you have.


Rites of war allow a number of units to deep strike, jump pack units may freely deep strike as well. A number of legions have access to infiltrate or scout, Raven Guard and Alpha Legion the obvious choices, but also Death Guard (Morturg, Infiltrate), Thousand Sons (Ahriman, scout, Amon, auto-arrival outflank) etc, so units taht can deep strike and have multiple plasma weapons off the top of my head...

Legion Terminator Squads, Veteran Tactical Squads, Legion Tactical Support Squads, Legion Seeker Squads, Locutarus Storm Squads, Justaerin Terminator Squasds, Reaver Attack Squad, Mor Deythan Strike Squad, Sekhmet Terminator Cabal

Thats just deep strike, anything with cout in a rhino or on a bike can easily get within rapid fire range for plasma guns.

 Tamwulf wrote:

Phosphex Mortars are not unkillable, but they are too cheap, too effective, don't require any real strategy to play with, don't require line of sight, and leave behind the templates that can be moved around during subsequent turns, and can have some real wound shenanigans due to the artillery unit rule. They can be parked in the back end of your deployment zone in cover, and just rain Phosphex Death onto the table. Sure, the elite units with a 2+ and vehicles pretty much ignore them, but those units usually can't hold objectives, and troops eventually have to get out of transports. They are just not fun to play against.


Troops eventually have to get out of transports, but if you've prioritised correctly, the things you say are a huge threat to them should be dead by this point, if not, your tactical squad being killed is the least of your worries.
   
 
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