Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I want to intermingle 2 Guardian units in an ABABABABAB fashion so that an opponent can't charge one unit with out charging the other. Thus I get double overwatch, attacks etc.
Can I do this?
Innocence is no Excuse
15,000
8,000
9,000
Nids:5,000
ArmyC wrote: I want to intermingle 2 Guardian units in an ABABABABAB fashion so that an opponent can't charge one unit with out charging the other. Thus I get double overwatch, attacks etc.
Can I do this?
Of course. Good luck trying to move them legally though without moving though other models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 12:40:45
ArmyC wrote: I want to intermingle 2 Guardian units in an ABABABABAB fashion so that an opponent can't charge one unit with out charging the other. Thus I get double overwatch, attacks etc.
Can I do this?
Of course. Good luck trying to move them legally though without moving though other models.
No, I'm not sure he can. His opponent can still just declare a charge against A and ignore B. Only the declared target of the charge can Overwatch. "Each time a charge is declared against a unit...".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 12:51:18
ArmyC wrote: I want to intermingle 2 Guardian units in an ABABABABAB fashion so that an opponent can't charge one unit with out charging the other. Thus I get double overwatch, attacks etc.
Can I do this?
Of course. Good luck trying to move them legally though without moving though other models.
No, I'm not sure he can. His opponent can still just declare a charge against A and ignore B. Only the declared target of the charge can Overwatch. "Each time a charge is declared against a unit...".
Emphasis mine:
The first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy model from one of the target units. No models in the charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that was not a target of its charge. If this is impossible, the charge fails and no models in the charging unit move this phase.
While I suppose it's theoretically possible to get models to be within 1" of A and not within 1" of B, it's going to be extremely difficult.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 13:04:51
ArmyC wrote: I want to intermingle 2 Guardian units in an ABABABABAB fashion so that an opponent can't charge one unit with out charging the other. Thus I get double overwatch, attacks etc.
Can I do this?
Of course. Good luck trying to move them legally though without moving though other models.
No, I'm not sure he can. His opponent can still just declare a charge against A and ignore B. Only the declared target of the charge can Overwatch. "Each time a charge is declared against a unit...".
Emphasis mine:
The first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy model from one of the target units. No models in the charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that was not a target of its charge. If this is impossible, the charge fails and no models in the charging unit move this phase.
While I suppose it's theoretically possible to get models to be within 1" of A and not within 1" of B, it's going to be extremely difficult.
You're answering a different question. Yes, he can arrange his models such to block a charge because it's impossible to get within 1", but you can't force your opponent to let you Overwatch with two units. The opponent can also declare against one, have the charge fizzle after eating one Overwatch and only one Overwatch or recognize the impossibility and choose not to charge.
The question we had here was whether you can force a double Overwatch, which you can't. It's purely your opponent's decision.
ArmyC wrote: I want to intermingle 2 Guardian units in an ABABABABAB fashion so that an opponent can't charge one unit with out charging the other. Thus I get double overwatch, attacks etc.
Can I do this?
Of course. Good luck trying to move them legally though without moving though other models.
No, I'm not sure he can. His opponent can still just declare a charge against A and ignore B. Only the declared target of the charge can Overwatch. "Each time a charge is declared against a unit...".
Emphasis mine:
The first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy model from one of the target units. No models in the charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that was not a target of its charge. If this is impossible, the charge fails and no models in the charging unit move this phase.
While I suppose it's theoretically possible to get models to be within 1" of A and not within 1" of B, it's going to be extremely difficult.
You're answering a different question. Yes, he can arrange his models such to block a charge because it's impossible to get within 1", but you can't force your opponent to let you Overwatch with two units. The opponent can also declare against one, have the charge fizzle after eating one Overwatch and only one Overwatch or recognize the impossibility and choose not to charge.
The question we had here was whether you can force a double Overwatch, which you can't. It's purely your opponent's decision.
I am assuming that he is asking if he can force double overwatch if the opponent wants to get into combat. He's explicitly asking if he can stop one unit being charged without the other being charged.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 13:04:31
Yea the way I understand the rules this wouldn't work for getting double overwatch.
You declare a charge against unit A and therefore must have at least one model in your Slugga Boyz finish within 1" of unit A. This is possible with the proposed formation either by exploiting the corners or just by having an exactly 1" directly in front of a guardian in unit A, therefore being slightly more the 1" from any guardian in unit B. The rest of da boyz hang back at 2".
At the start of the fight phase, you use the 3" consolidate to put the rest of your Orks within 1" of the rest of the line. This puts Guardian units A and B in close combat.
However, because you consolidated into combat with Guardian unit B, you can only make attacks against unit A.
Yeah, like Kroem says, this doesn't work at all. It's very easy to move a charger so that it is within 1" of squad A but not within 1" of squad B.
If you're set up ABABABAB then the charger just has to form up like C C C C C, and now all of the Cs can be 1" from all of the As and not within 1" of any Bs.
It's true that you'd then get to fight with unit B if the charger chooses to pile in (though he doesn't have to and could easily have 10 models attacking unit A with none in range of unit B).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 13:30:58
While I suppose it's theoretically possible to get models to be within 1" of A and not within 1" of B, it's going to be extremely difficult.
I just drew it on autoCAD with the proper dims and it is actually fairly easy. I would upload the diagram but I doubt it would be allowed in the dakka gallery.
You might need a vernier to ensure you are in the correct position, but the OP already established that we are all being douche-bags in this game so that should be no problem!
Imagine you do a line of alternating models of different units A and B, base contact or small caps, doesn't matter. Now imagine a 1" circle around the models. It is abolutely possible to move charging models within the 1" circles of unit A without touching the circles of unit B. After fighting the charging unit just consolidates and now both units A and B are in combat. I don't really see the point of such shenanigans.
ArmyC wrote: I want to intermingle 2 Guardian units in an ABABABABAB fashion so that an opponent can't charge one unit with out charging the other. Thus I get double overwatch, attacks etc.
Can I do this?
Of course. Good luck trying to move them legally though without moving though other models.
No, I'm not sure he can. His opponent can still just declare a charge against A and ignore B. Only the declared target of the charge can Overwatch. "Each time a charge is declared against a unit...".
Emphasis mine:
The first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy model from one of the target units. No models in the charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that was not a target of its charge. If this is impossible, the charge fails and no models in the charging unit move this phase.
While I suppose it's theoretically possible to get models to be within 1" of A and not within 1" of B, it's going to be extremely difficult.
Actually it's quite easy, a 25mm base is .98 inches.
You declare a charge against the you it with a corner in the ABAB block closest to you and move within .1 inch of it. Then you pile into both units. You can only attack the unit you declared a charge against but you have now have two units in assault and only one got to overwatch.
As mentioned, charging a corner is the way to do it. Then you consolidate into the second unit during the fight phase.
You also cannot move through your own models. If both units fly, this is not a big issue, but if they do not, moving your guys around can be a hassle. You can't just 'move both units at once' according to the rules, so there must be a 1" gap between each model to allow your unit to fit.
So the practical use for this tactic would be units that can fly. The biggest wins for this are Tau -- who already can use the greater good.
Finally, I can tell you from personal experience that when I'm charging a unit with my beatstick unit, going after two of them is just gravy. I will eat the double overwatch to chew up on two units instead of one. 5 or 10 marines -- it does not matter, Khorne bezerkers will kill them all.
It's a bad idea all round - the only one who can overwatch is the declared target of the charge. The intermingled unit will be engaged overwatch-free with the attacker's 'pile in move.' They become easier to kill - not harder.
Not sure if I've missed something but when saying you can pile in to attack unit B in this circumstance, not sure you can to be honest.
I may be misunderstanding but page 182 point 3 of the fight phase, choosing targets.
"Models that charged this turn can only target enemy units that they charged in the previous phase." So they couldn't attack unit b as they didn't charge them to avoid overwatch.
Also it never explicitly says you can use a pile in or consolidate to get inside of 1" of a model you haven't nominated a charge against. I can't see anything to suggest you can be in close combat with a unit you don't get overwatch from.
Can some explain the logic please?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 21:17:17
Q: If a unit starts the Fight phase with no enemy units within 1", but then enemy units that have been chosen to fight move to within 1" of it as a result of their pile-in or consolidation moves, can that unit then be chosen to fight when it is your turn to choose a unit?
A: Yes.
Note, however, that units can only be chosen to fight once per phase.
Q: If a unit piles in or consolidates into a unit it didn’t declare a charge against in the preceding Charge phase, does that unit get to fire Overwatch?
A: No.
Remember though that units that charged can only make close combat attacks against units that they declared the charge against, even if pile-in moves, etc. bring them within 1" of a different unit.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Works for me, touch irritating it's inferred in a designer commentary rather than the faq though.
Although gotta be honest on the charge it seems a bad idea in some circumstance it gives your opponent a free melee phase essentially, could be dangerous if they get some lucky rolls!
When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models.
There is no 1" restriction during the Charge or Fight Phase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 22:01:37
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models.
There is no 1" restriction during the Charge or Fight Phase.
Read a little further
4. Make Charge Move After any Overwatch has been resolved, roll 2D6. Each model in the charging unit can move up to this number of inches – this is their charge distance this turn. The first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy model from one of the target units. No models in the charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that was not a target of its charge.
That being said, you can use the pile in and consolidate moves just fine I suppose.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 21:57:50
The interleaved thing is complicated for movement, but it's possible. If you're running an MSU force you can also just form into columns and cover the flanks with vehicles. If I have four squads lined up:
VABCDV
ABCD
ABCD etc
and the flanks covered by vehicles (Dreads work well), then you end up in a situation where none of the individual squads can legally be charged in the charge phase. An enemy could potentially charge the flanking units of course and then pile in, but that's neither here nor there when it comes to charging the columns of infantry. In the example above you can't legally charge any of A, B, C, or D without moving within 1" of one of the other units.
So in that case, is the opponent allowed to declare the charge against one of the infantry squads when he won't be able to legally complete it?
The only result that makes any sense to me when set next to item 4 in the charge phase (as this could easily happen by mistake) is that he declares, eats the overwatch, and then the charge fails when he can't legally make the move, just like it fails if he doesn't roll high enough. It fits the RAW anyway.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
Fenris-77 wrote: The interleaved thing is complicated for movement, but it's possible. If you're running an MSU force you can also just form into columns and cover the flanks with vehicles. If I have four squads lined up:
VABCDV
ABCD
ABCD etc
and the flanks covered by vehicles (Dreads work well), then you end up in a situation where none of the individual squads can legally be charged in the charge phase. An enemy could potentially charge the flanking units of course and then pile in, but that's neither here nor there when it comes to charging the columns of infantry. In the example above you can't legally charge any of A, B, C, or D without moving within 1" of one of the other units.
So in that case, is the opponent allowed to declare the charge against one of the infantry squads when he won't be able to legally complete it?
The only result that makes any sense to me when set next to item 4 in the charge phase (as this could easily happen by mistake) is that he declares, eats the overwatch, and then the charge fails when he can't legally make the move, just like it fails if he doesn't roll high enough. It fits the RAW anyway.
I don't understand why I can't get within 1" of unit B while staying outside of 1" from the rest.
Fenris-77 wrote: The interleaved thing is complicated for movement, but it's possible. If you're running an MSU force you can also just form into columns and cover the flanks with vehicles. If I have four squads lined up:
VABCDV
ABCD
ABCD etc
and the flanks covered by vehicles (Dreads work well), then you end up in a situation where none of the individual squads can legally be charged in the charge phase. An enemy could potentially charge the flanking units of course and then pile in, but that's neither here nor there when it comes to charging the columns of infantry. In the example above you can't legally charge any of A, B, C, or D without moving within 1" of one of the other units.
So in that case, is the opponent allowed to declare the charge against one of the infantry squads when he won't be able to legally complete it?
The only result that makes any sense to me when set next to item 4 in the charge phase (as this could easily happen by mistake) is that he declares, eats the overwatch, and then the charge fails when he can't legally make the move, just like it fails if he doesn't roll high enough. It fits the RAW anyway.
I don't understand why I can't get within 1" of unit B while staying outside of 1" from the rest.
Because infantry are on slightly less than 1" bases and you form the columns up in base to base. I'd have to do some measuring, but after giving it some thought I'd guess that it's possible to get maybe one model within 1" if you don't go base to base but stay just inside 1".
Yup, double checked with bases, it's doable. That said, the charging unit can only attack the unit they charged, so there's only so much damage you're going to do, plus if you pile in to within 1" of those other units they will be be able to attack the charging unit on their activation. The pile in is a nightmare too, because the chargers have to end their move "closer to the nearest enemy unit" which is a lot of cases isn't a model from the unit they declared a charge against.
I don't actually see a lot of practical use for the column thing really, but it's an interesting thought experiment.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
Because infantry are on slightly less than 1" bases and you form the columns up in base to base. I'd have to do some measuring, but after giving it some thought I'd guess that it's possible to get maybe one model within 1" if you don't go base to base but stay just inside 1".
Yup, double checked with bases, it's doable. That said, the charging unit can only attack the unit they charged, so there's only so much damage you're going to do, plus if you pile in to within 1" of those other units they will be be able to attack the charging unit on their activation. The pile in is a nightmare too, because the chargers have to end their move "closer to the nearest enemy unit" which is a lot of cases isn't a model from the unit they declared a charge against.
I don't actually see a lot of practical use for the column thing really, but it's an interesting thought experiment.
It doesn't matter how big the bases are -- they're circular. You can always place a unit exactly 1" from a model in the unit you're charging, along a line perpendicular to the enemy's front rank.
It's true that unless you want to engage the other enemy units, you can only attack with a limited number of models, but you can fit more than you're probably thinking. You can put one model to either side of your primary charger, just marginally farther back such that they're not quite within 1" of an enemy. You can then fit two more right behind your front three (these will not quite be in btb with it), and then another behind those 2. Since bases are < 1", you can then fit two more models in btb with your two flanking models that are in btb with the primary. So that's 8 models that can attack. Not having tried to draw this out, I suspect you can get up to 9 or maybe 10 by doing something asymmetrical with the 2 you put in behind the primary charger. You could also try setting up the first two flanking models so that they're not quite in btb with the primary charger and actually marginally farther forward than it is (they can do this because they're not going to be lined up directly opposite enemy models but will be between two of them). This lets you fit in two models in btb behind the primary charger so that you can have three models in your third rank instead of one or two. That's 8 again but it might be possible to fit two more in btb and slightly behind your flankers.
Piling In is generally not a problem because you only have to end "closer to the nearest enemy". You don't have to end as close as possible to the nearest enemy. A Pile In move can take you from just within 1" of one enemy to btb with a completely different enemy and 0.9" from the original enemy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: OOOOO
....OO
..OO
Basically this should always work, where the middle O in the top row is just within 1" and the flanking ones are slightly farther back. Only one of the second rank Os is in btb with the primary O in the front rank. And then anything in btb with something in btb with the primary O will be within 1" of it too. Though seeing as how the bases are actually some finite amount < 1" and not just infinitesimally < 1" you'd be able to fit a third in the back rank. And like I said it may be possible to fit more in the second rank but I'm not sure.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/28 23:13:00
Yeah you don't have to be in BtB in a charge anymore, just within 1". And since the 25mm base is almost an inch (.984" ) in diameter you only have to be .379" away from a model from squad A sandwiched between two models in squad B.
B
A->.379"->X
B
So you don't even have to charge the corners, you can charge any side easily.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/29 01:05:38
Tarrasq wrote: Yeah you don't have to be in BtB in a charge anymore, just within 1". And since the 25mm base is almost an inch (.984" ) in diameter you only have to be .379" away from a model from squad A sandwiched between two models in squad B.
B
A->.379"->X
B
So you don't even have to charge the corners, you can charge any side easily.
You can even charge a litttle further in from exact front, or slightly offset(about an 8th of an inch) to either side:
Vassal: 4 Guardsmen from 2 units; green base is Unit a, Black Base is unit b. Circles are 1"
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
Tarrasq wrote: Yeah you don't have to be in BtB in a charge anymore, just within 1". And since the 25mm base is almost an inch (.984" ) in diameter you only have to be .379" away from a model from squad A sandwiched between two models in squad B.
B A->.379"->X B
So you don't even have to charge the corners, you can charge any side easily.
You can even charge a litttle further in from exact front, or slightly offset(about an 8th of an inch) to either side: Vassal: 4 Guardsmen from 2 units; green base is Unit a, Black Base is unit b. Circles are 1"
That's not right, the top guy has to have his 1" circle overlap a base of the enemy. (Unrelated note did Vassal release an 8th module yet?)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/29 11:47:00
Tarrasq wrote: Yeah you don't have to be in BtB in a charge anymore, just within 1". And since the 25mm base is almost an inch (.984" ) in diameter you only have to be .379" away from a model from squad A sandwiched between two models in squad B.
B
A->.379"->X
B
So you don't even have to charge the corners, you can charge any side easily.
You can even charge a litttle further in from exact front, or slightly offset(about an 8th of an inch) to either side:
Vassal: 4 Guardsmen from 2 units; green base is Unit a, Black Base is unit b. Circles are 1"
That's not right, the top guy has to have his 1" circle overlap a base of the enemy. (Unrelated note did Vassal release an 8th module yet?)
While that’s true, it’s not relevant to the problem; the model’s base can just as easily hit that same circle without overlapping the other circles and it doesn’t matter if it’s range circle overlaps anyone else’s.
"Three months? I'm going to go crazy …and I'm taking you with me!"
— Vala Mal Doran
15,000
8,000
9,000
7000+
3500
2000 
