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Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Assuming all 3 Elite units are needed for a Vanguard detachment and all are in Serpents,
which is best (in a vaccum or to build an army around)

2x 5 D-Scythe WG
1x 5 Wraithcannon WG

OR

2x 6 D-Scythe WG
1x 5 Fire Dragons

There is only 10pts difference

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 21:32:53


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

Wraithguard all the way. Option 1 gives you 45 wounds at T5. Option 2 gives you 36 T5 wounds and 5 T3 wounds.

Fusion guns only get a damage bonus at half-range whereas the S10 from Wraithcannons will help wound against T5 and T8 targets at any range.

Dragons in combat are in trouble. Wraithguard in combat can punch back fairly effectively then stroll out of combat in your next turn and still shoot thanks to their "Implacable" rule.

I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

My current setup is
2x5 Wraithguard w/ D-scythes
2 Serpents
2x5 Fire Dragons w/ Exarch
1 Serpent
But this doesnt answer the question. I'd go with what Karhedron has said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How does the rest of the army look like?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 12:13:06


Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

The rest of my Army will likely be Yvraine + Farseer in the same Serpent as either the Dragons or the Cannon WG,
2 Hemlocks and a 3rd Flyer, either a Razorwing for those sweet missiles, or a Crimson Hunter if I have points

I'm actually surprise you guys think the Cannon WG are a better choice. I agree they are the more durable choice, but the Dragons + 2 extra D-scythes have more damage output. Add the fact that they will be Ynnari and a few extra shots could mean the difference between Soulbursting or not.

The range difference I am not too worried about. WG M5" + 12" gun is about the same as Dragons M7"+d6 advance + 6" half range
But even with all that, I may have to agree that the Cannon WG are probably they more versatile option. Even if the Dragons kill unit and Soulburst to kill a second, that is probably all of their shooting for the game as they will likely be killed easily (but then this could be used to allow the D-scythe WG nearby to Soulburst in the enemy turn)
Cannon WG are much more likely to get more than 1 turn of shooting, which easily balances their damage output

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 12:54:31


   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Cannon WG are much more likely to get more than 1 turn of shooting, which easily balances their damage output

Make sure to Guide them.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Are you deadset on using on craftworld units here?

I think Dark eldar offer some more efficient options for that 3rd slot.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

 Xenomancers wrote:
Are you deadset on using on craftworld units here?

I think Dark eldar offer some more efficient options for that 3rd slot.

Using DE would require to open a new detachment which usually comes with a tax (HQ).

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 wuestenfux wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Are you deadset on using on craftworld units here?

I think Dark eldar offer some more efficient options for that 3rd slot.

Using DE would require to open a new detachment which usually comes with a tax (HQ).

Not if hes playing ynnari - pretty sure he is.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Are you deadset on using on craftworld units here?

I think Dark eldar offer some more efficient options for that 3rd slot.

Using DE would require to open a new detachment which usually comes with a tax (HQ).

Not if hes playing ynnari - pretty sure he is.


Even if he is playing craftworld eldar, he can add dark eldars. They all share the aeldary word, so they can go into the same detatchment. The only ones that ened a whole detatchment with their keyword are ynnary. Please need to properly read the detatchment and forged armies.

Xenomancer, which DE options would you consider above the Eldar ones for that third spot? I don't think DE have anything that rivals fire dragons for the job.

Edit: Just so that everyone has it clear, I could easy make a detatchemtn with a farseer, a sucubuss, a unit of guardian defenders, a units of kabalite warriors and a unit of dire avengers and that would give me 3 CP

So in this case, he could take a vanguard detatchment with 2 units of d-scythes WG and a unit of truborn for 1 CP

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/28 14:46:59


 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

 Xenomancers wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Are you deadset on using on craftworld units here?

I think Dark eldar offer some more efficient options for that 3rd slot.

Using DE would require to open a new detachment which usually comes with a tax (HQ).

Not if hes playing ynnari - pretty sure he is.

What would you suggest?
Trueborn with blasters in Venoms or Raiders?

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

My issue with taking DE units is that I really want to limit my deployment drops to 6-7 max, that way I can go first most of the time. Adding a DE unit wound mean having an extra deployment as I cannot fit them into a Serpent (and I really want 3 serpents in this list.

What to you guys think about dropping the 3rd Flyer and fitting the army info a Spearhead + Vangaurd?
I would take 3x 3 Dark Reapers, 2x 5 Wraithguard, 2 Hemlocks, Yvraine & an Aurtach with Reaper Launcher.
I need 1 more Elite minimum and it need to be around 100pts or less.
By dropping the 3rd Flyer, I free up a deployment drop, so really anything is feasible

Units that I am contemplating would be Scorpions, Banshees, maybe a Death Jester

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 17:24:15


   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 wuestenfux wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Are you deadset on using on craftworld units here?

I think Dark eldar offer some more efficient options for that 3rd slot.

Using DE would require to open a new detachment which usually comes with a tax (HQ).

Not if hes playing ynnari - pretty sure he is.

What would you suggest?
Trueborn with blasters in Venoms or Raiders?

Yeah - my thoughts exactly. or a solitare from the harliquens. Both are 1 drop and much cheaper than the cannon wraiths + serpent. Or for about the same price could take 2 tureborns in a raider with 8 blasters coming out of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galef wrote:
My issue with taking DE units is that I really want to limit my deployment drops to 6-7 max, that way I can go first most of the time. Adding a DE unit wound mean having an extra deployment as I cannot fit them into a Serpent (and I really want 3 serpents in this list.

What to you guys think about dropping the 3rd Flyer and fitting the army info a Spearhead + Vangaurd?
I would take 3x 3 Dark Reapers, 2x 5 Wraithguard, 2 Hemlocks, Yvraine & an Aurtach with Reaper Launcher.
I need 1 more Elite minimum and it need to be around 100pts or less.
By dropping the 3rd Flyer, I free up a deployment drop, so really anything is feasible

Units that I am contemplating would be Scorpions, Banshees, maybe a Death Jester

-

I like the sound of that. I think a solitare is 91 points - would fit right in.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 18:22:58


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Why Trueborn? Aren't Dragons still better?
Dragons are cheaper per model, more durable and put more damage even outside half range. In half range the Dragons put out far more damage than Trueborn
And most importantly, Dragons can go in a Serpent.

Help me understand why you are suggesting Trueborn? I am open to the option, but I just don't get why they would be better than Dragons
Unless you are suggesting the reason is the Open-topped Raider? Which in my list will always give First Blood

-

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/28 18:28:03


   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Galef wrote:
Why Trueborn? Aren't Dragons still better?
Dragons are cheaper per model, more durable and put more damage even outside half range. In half range the Dragons put out far more damage than Trueborn
And most importantly, Dragons can go in a Serpent.

Help me understand why you are suggesting Trueborn? I am open to the option, but I just don't get why they would be better than Dragons
Unless you are suggesting the reason is the Open-topped Raider? Which in my list will always give First Blood

-

Well - the main reason is the trueborn don't have to get out to shoot. They have a much cheaper Taxi too. For about the same price you could take a raider with 2 trueborn units in it with 8 blasters (compared to the wraiths). True they can't soulburst in there - but they can't die in there ether.

Main idea here is the trueborn can hit turn 1 - so they get 2 rounds of shooting compared to 1 (before things get crazy)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 18:46:31


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Hmm. Definitely food for thought. But compared to a Serpent, a Raider is just going to die. Then the Trueborn are easy pickens.

I wonder if I would be better off taking 2x 5 Kabalites with a Blaster in a Raider and 8 Storm guardians with 2 Fusion guns. The would give me more bodies and more importantly, 3CPs from a Battalion.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Galef wrote:
Hmm. Definitely food for thought. But compared to a Serpent, a Raider is just going to die. Then the Trueborn are easy pickens.

I wonder if I would be better off taking 2x 5 Kabalites with a Blaster in a Raider and 8 Storm guardians with 2 Fusion guns. The would give me more bodies and more importantly, 3CPs from a Battalion.

You still gotta kill the Raider first. Once you off the Dragons, the Wave Serpent is an expensive gunboat.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Galef wrote:
Hmm. Definitely food for thought. But compared to a Serpent, a Raider is just going to die. Then the Trueborn are easy pickens.

I wonder if I would be better off taking 2x 5 Kabalites with a Blaster in a Raider and 8 Storm guardians with 2 Fusion guns. The would give me more bodies and more importantly, 3CPs from a Battalion.

I don't think any of these options are bad. I just think some medium threat range shooting could benefit you.

For example I had a game vs salamanders playing a list a lot like yours. I had 2 serpents 1 with Dsythes and 1 with 2 5 man fire dragons. He had a vindicator about 18 inches off his front line. It was perfectly places to engage wraithgaurd and there wasn't anything I could do about it. I had 1 hemlock left but it can't 1 shot a vindi - with some blaster support though the 2 could have knocked it out. My dragons were unable to deal with it that turn. I got lucky and tied it up with a single suicide jetbike - that was a really lucky 11 inch charge though.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
 
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