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Made in us
Rampaging Chaos Russ Driver




I was reading some wiki fluff on it and it explained how some people want him to die for the possibility of him being reborn.  It also said he was born in the year 8000 BC.  Anyone read anything that supports any of that?

   
Made in ch
Dakka Veteran




Planet of Dakka

nope but how can he be born in 8k bc?


http://www.petitiononline.com/damnatus/ 
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


The Emperor needing to die so he can be re-born is a belief of one of the sects of Inquisitors portrayed in the Inquisitor game. I can't remember which faction it was.

Based on the old Chaos hardback RT books, the Emperor was indeed born long, long ago (don't think it was 8,000 BC though. . .), and was said to sneak in and out of history secretly guiding mankind along in times of great need.


So yes, roughly both of those concepts are established 40k canon.


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Rampaging Chaos Russ Driver




Sorry, I should have linked it..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_of_mankind

I love wikis.

   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Over there... no, wait, AARGH!

I'm not 100% on this but... I believe the idea of him dying was that it would free him from the rather messed up body he inhabits now, allowing him to be reincarnated, grow up big and strong, and kill lots of aliens again, like a Great Crusade Mk. 2.

"You can shut us out, but you will never shut us up" - Sid Vicious 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




A couple weeks a go, a guy from a local forum, who is much more versed in the fluff side of the hobby told me that there is a rumor floating around that the Emp is really Horus, and that Cypher knows this and each Cypher citing, he is getting closer to Terra. This was only a week or so after I had come back to the hobby after a long break.

I had been meaning to check up on this, and totally forgot. Anyone know anything more?
   
Made in gb
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge





The Inquisitorial sect is the Thorians - they're named after saint Sebastian Thor.
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


A couple weeks a go, a guy from a local forum, who is much more versed in the fluff side of the hobby told me that there is a rumor floating around that the Emp is really Horus, and that Cypher knows this and each Cypher citing, he is getting closer to Terra. This was only a week or so after I had come back to the hobby after a long break.

I had been meaning to check up on this, and totally forgot. Anyone know anything more?



It is a complete BS rumor that was started around the time of the 13th Crusade/40k 4th edition release. Cypher is apparently headed back to earth, but for what reason is totally unknown. There has never been any evidence to suggest that the Emperor is actually Horus.

The end of the Horus Heresy series of novels should put a nail in this coffin for good, I'd imagine.


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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




As to the Emperor being reborn - it's not a possibility that the fluff ever endorses. There are some radical Inquisitors that believe in it, though. References would mostly be in the Inquisitor rules.

According to Horus, in "Horus Rising", the Emperor was born in 'Anatoly', and a detailed golden ring was produced 'in Persia' the year before. Anatolia is a region in southwest Asia, first populated around 8,000 BC (so sayeth Wikipedia). I don't know enough about the history of goldworking, and Wiki is decidedly unhelpful, but the fact that the Emperor called the region 'Persia' can help us pin a time down. I imagine that the Emperor would only call the place Persia if that was what it was known as when he grew up (If not, why 'Persia'? Why not 'Iran', whatever it's called later on, or whatever the people who made the ring called it?) Again according to Wiki, our first record of Persians comes from 844 BC. It seems like we have to place the Emperor sometime after 1000 BC. That's decidedly odd, but I think that they've settled on this Horus Heresy series as the definitive account, overriding all previous fluff.
   
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Been Around the Block




I was shocked when he said it, but I had (have) been out of the loop for a while. Trying to think of his exact words....

"Think about it, why would the savior of man suck the life out of x psychers per day?"

   
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Murfreesboro, TN

Thing is, HE doesn't. The Golden Throne does. The Emperor hasn't done anything at all, himself, since the final throwdown. He doesn't even create the Astronomican; an astropathic choir does, psychicly "screaming" their proverbial lungs out and burning out hundreds of prime psykers per day.

As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely the result of wishful thinking.

But there's no sense crying over every mistake;
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Member of the "No Retreat for Calgar" Club 
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


That's not true Lord Sutekh. There are several accounts of the Emperor still communicating psychicly since his entombment, in the original Inquisitor trilogy by Ian Watson, for example.

And while the choir of psykers do help power the Astronimican the Emperor is still the main power, and more importantly, the guiding force behind it (i.e. he focuses it).

The Emperor is still very much a potent psyker and cognitive pressence.


@OG: The Emperor's body is essentially dead. The Golden Throne is a mechanism that keeps him alive but he still requires an intake of psychic energy to keep his mind alive and the Astronimican going.




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I'd heard somewhere (perhaps in this forum) that the Emperor was the reincarnation of a whole bunch of Terran shamans that foresaw a great darkness, so they committed a mass ritual suicide so that all of their essence would be reborn as the Emperor.

Anatoli was Turkey, I thought.

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Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

Posted By Gotchaye on 06/07/2006 11:24 PM
As to the Emperor being reborn - it's not a possibility that the fluff ever endorses. There are some radical Inquisitors that believe in it, though. References would mostly be in the Inquisitor rules.

According to Horus, in "Horus Rising", the Emperor was born in 'Anatoly', and a detailed golden ring was produced 'in Persia' the year before. Anatolia is a region in southwest Asia, first populated around 8,000 BC (so sayeth Wikipedia). I don't know enough about the history of goldworking, and Wiki is decidedly unhelpful, but the fact that the Emperor called the region 'Persia' can help us pin a time down. I imagine that the Emperor would only call the place Persia if that was what it was known as when he grew up (If not, why 'Persia'? Why not 'Iran', whatever it's called later on, or whatever the people who made the ring called it?) Again according to Wiki, our first record of Persians comes from 844 BC. It seems like we have to place the Emperor sometime after 1000 BC. That's decidedly odd, but I think that they've settled on this Horus Heresy series as the definitive account, overriding all previous fluff.



If the Emperor had been born in 8000BC there would have been no reference point to associate him with.  The Persian Empire was an Empire that had a profound effect upon civilization as a whole since it's time.  The civilizations that arose before it in that region have faded away into obscurity today, and if the name Persia has even survived to 30,000AD then you can say it's a safe bet no one would remember anything about a civilization that arose prior to it.  Especially after the Dark Age.  When speaking to Horus, he probably just used the name Persia for ease, as opposed to digging up a past that no one would have any referance to what so ever.

Or you can just blame GW for not doing proper research.


Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in us
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That's not true Lord Sutekh. There are several accounts of the Emperor still communicating psychicly since his entombment, in the original Inquisitor trilogy by Ian Watson, for example.

...which presented the Emperor as a mega-schitzophrenic, which doesn't jive with any other aspect of the Emperor's mythology.

And while the choir of psykers do help power the Astronimican the Emperor is still the main power, and more importantly, the guiding force behind it (i.e. he focuses it).

From everything I've read, the Astronomican is entirely separate from the Emperor; it's termed "the Emperor's guiding light" by virtue of it being (1) Imperial, (2) coming from Earth, and (3) religious associations.

The Emperor is still very much a potent psyker and cognitive pressence.

Psyker, maybe; cognitive, no.  If he was still aware, as such a powerful psyker, why would there be a need for the council that rules in his name?  He could transmit his wishes straight into his highest servants' brains.  He certainly would not have let the Imperium fall so far from his dream without a fight, and would have nixed the Ecclessiarchy in the bud.


As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely the result of wishful thinking.

But there's no sense crying over every mistake;
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Member of the "No Retreat for Calgar" Club 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Sure, Persia was important, but we don't say that Venice is in the Roman Empire. We also talk of things being done 'in the Soviet Union', because the area was called the USSR when the things were done. However, if we want to talk about the area before that time, we call it 'Tsarist Russia'. We don't say that the Indians lived in the United States of America, even though it's undoubtedly had a more 'profound effect upon civilization as a whole since its time'.

Remember that the Emperor was talking to a young Horus - a Horus who had never left the world of his birth and who didn't know what the stars were. 'Persia' would have had no meaning for him whatsoever, and the Emperor would have just said the first name that came to mind. Just as we would've cited the old Russian royalty as a relic of Tsarist Russia, and not a part of the USSR, the Emperor would have only said that the ring was made in Persia if it was indeed made in Persia, not in Iran or in whatever predated Persia.
   
Made in de
Dominating Dominatrix






Piercing the heavens

iven if he would be reborn, would't his death (even for a short period of time) like a giant warp gate opened directly before Terra?

I don't believe this whole "Horus is the emporer" stuff (I bought Horus rising just today, maybe I'll learn more), but I think Cypher is heading for Terra to bring the Emporer the Lion's sword, which can heal him or something
   
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Lord Sukteh:

You are right to a degree. After going back and reading some fluff I agree that the Astronimican is now completely powered by the Adeptus Astronomica. However, I was correct that the Emperor is essential in focusing the Astronimican. At least Rogue Trader also defines the Emperor as also being cognitive. I know fluff has been re-written a million times so you'd have to go through each edition of rulebooks and fluff to see if they've ever contradicted these points, but I honestly don't think so (p135 of Rogue Trader):

"The Emperor understands the dangers that face his race, and has assumed the role which seems pre-ordained for him, that of its guardian. Perhaps he is a freak, or perhaps nature created him as the protector of her metamorphosis. Either way, the Emperor is now the custodian of his race, and he alone bears the knowledge of its fate. To this end the Emperor maintains strict control over the development of humanity and contributes directly to its survival by utilizing his powers. He plays a vital role in space travel within the Imperium. In order to steer a craft over great distances, a human navigator uses a mental homing signal, a sort of psychic beacon to guide him through warp space. To provide a mental signal througout human controlled psace would not be possible to any ordianry psyker. However, the Emperor is no ordinary psyker - his powers go byeond those of mortals. Even so, the starin of transmitting a continuous signal would prove far too strenuous, and he merely concentrates his powers on directing a signal created by others. These are the imperial servants known as the Adeptus Astronimica, psykers whose bodies and souls are leeched of energy. This energy is projected by the mind of the Emperor in the form of the psychic beacon known as the Astronomican. The sheer quantity of menatl energy is vast, and only the mind of the Emperor is sufficient to handle so much raw power."


...which presented the Emperor as a mega-schitzophrenic, which doesn't jive with any other aspect of the Emperor's mythology.


Seeing as I cannot recall another fluff tale involving direct contact with the Emperor (post-entombment), I don't know how that doesn't jive.

He spends nearly all his will guiding the Astronimican and somehow guiding humanity along a path with his powers. What will is left over is probably pretty disjointed.


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Posted By Iorek on 06/08/2006 9:13 AM
I'd heard somewhere (perhaps in this forum) that the Emperor was the reincarnation of a whole bunch of Terran shamans that foresaw a great darkness, so they committed a mass ritual suicide so that all of their essence would be reborn as the Emperor.

Anatoli was Turkey, I thought.



That is from the Rogue Trader era Realms of Chaos books. You can find a copy of the text online if you look around for it.

 


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I vaguely recall two stories where the Emperor "might" have contacted somebody.

The first was when Tigurius was warning Calgar of the battle for Maccrage (in the 3rd edition SM codex).

The other was a short story in which a merchant vessel ended up getting lost in the warp. The Navigator was praying to the Emperor to show him the way home when he saw a figure beckoning him in a direction which lead back to the Astronomicon. I'll have to see if I can find which book this was in.

Of course, in both examples it's possible they were just subconscious symbols...
   
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Rampaging Chaos Russ Driver




I thought the sisters of battle were "touched" by the emperor after visiting him? (from the witch hunter codex)
Also the grey knights were supossedly touched by him as well (from the daemon hunter codex)

By touched I mean psychically, you perverts.

   
Made in de
Dominating Dominatrix






Piercing the heavens

well, there was fluff about some Sororitas entering the holy halls or whatever they're called. and since the girls are the imperial warriors with the most faith (points) I doubt that they only saw a rotting corpse
   
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Imperial Agent Provocateur




Mississippi

Posted By Anung Un Rama on 06/09/2006 4:14 PM
well, there was fluff about some Sororitas entering the holy halls or whatever they're called. and since the girls are the imperial warriors with the most faith (points) I doubt that they only saw a rotting corpse


Maybe thats why they were told that to speak in his presence would be death.  I can see it now - they walk in, one goes 'ewww, icky' and her head explodes.  On a more serious note - the one BL book with the Dark Angel that gets 'lost' in time (can't remember the name) lends you to think 'something' is guiding him to his destination.  Being that it leads to one of his traitorous brothers you wouldn't think it was a Chaos god leading him.
   
Made in de
Dominating Dominatrix






Piercing the heavens

another note on Cypher.
I think I read fluff that he actually wants to redeem himself, by bringing the Lion's sword to terra. bit if he is a "good" guy, then how he pulls off those miracle escapes evry time. they are supernatural in some way.
   
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Savage Khorne Berserker Biker





Cypher is coming to Terra to redeem himself.....by using the Lions Sword to penetrate the golden throne and kill the Emporer so that he may be freed of his imprisonment and become a god. Gods are created through the beliefs of peoples... Orks created Gork and Mork.... the eldar created Khaine, and Slanesh...... and humanity has created Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle...... these were all created when millions of souls believed a certain way..... Well BILLIONS of souls believe in the Emporer, think of the power he would have when he is a god.... but he cannot be a god until he casts off his mortal shell, and the lions sword is noted for being the only thing capable of penetrating the golden throne..... and the emporer himself is protecting Cypher and leading him closer to Terra so that Cypher may accomplish his mission.

.......................................... just think when the Emporer creates his daemon princes..... *grins*


Angron- crushing the theme and fluff of armies one horde at a time.

-The Trooper 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



Still trying to operate tape cassettes

the lions sword is noted for being the only thing capable of penetrating the golden throne


Where did you get that from? Penetrating the Golden Throne would be a difficult task, it's the size of a city. And I'm pretty certain that it couldn't be, how would anyone find out?

Still, funky theory.

I think Cypher gets too much good press, to be honest, not that I'm not appreciative of it. It could be possible that he's just a survivor, but a pretty interesting one.

Archaeo= It's Eye of Terror, by Barrington J. Bailey. I love that book, it feels really RT era.

I Ate Your Bees 
   
Made in de
Dominating Dominatrix






Piercing the heavens

well, the golden Throne may be as big as a city, but somewhere there has to be a corpse in a bacta tank.

but I like the Idea of Cypher fighting his way trough the Custodes Legions
   
Made in gb
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge





@Angron - Khorne, Tzeench and Nurgle were created way before humans even evolved. They were created by the 'young races' during the Old One vs C'tan war - says so in the Necron codex.
   
Made in us
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker





Don't know so much about Tzeentch and Nurgle.... but Khorne was definatly created by mankinds emotions..... even says so in the saga of khorne in the liber chaotica

Angron- crushing the theme and fluff of armies one horde at a time.

-The Trooper 
   
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Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

Accually there is an organization in the imperium, a very secret one made of those who survived deamonic posession with their sanity intact, that are gathering the Sensei. The Sensei are the Emperors physical children. They have taken from him immortality and some of this physical skills. This organization I can't remember the name of, thoguh I know it starts with an I...*thinks* AH! The Illuminati. (And yes I just now remembered...) Anyways the fluff goes the Illuminati are gathering the Sensei with the LIE that they will fight in the ragnarok, but in accuality they are gathing them so that the very moment the emperors strength fails completely, the Sensei, who are all psykers, will be sacrificed to the Emperor on the golden throne and it will be so powerful as to allow him to reincarnate.

I'm sure its cannon, and even some rules where written about using Sensei on the field, though I know they, like the Illuminati fluff, are second edition things.

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