Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Whether powerful or powerless, the actual implementation of Psykers in 40k has generally been quite different from edition to edition, and GW appears incapable of coming up with a system that can truly satisfy anyone or be properly internally balanced.

2nd Edition Psykers were probably the most bloated of them all, with Dark Millennium having you draw cards for manifesting, nullifying, or reflecting powers around! By contrast, 3rd edition powers were mostly painfully bland, with Eldar getting Fortune and Guide, and everyone else getting maybe one or two powers tops.

Around 3.5 and 4th edition, GW published rules for Minor Psyker Powers in White Dwarf but they remained unofficial. However, come the 3.5 Pete Haines codex, GW really bought into the idea of *lots of options*, and lots of powers if you were willing to pay for them. 4th Edition Space Marines exemplified this, with every power having a point cost, two in fact actually as the second power would cost more points than if it was the only power (a sort of "flexibility tax").

5th edition mostly did away with this. I say mostly. Space Marine Psykers got 2 powers for free, Guard had pre-defined powers, and Tyranids were one part pre-defined, one part "2 for free", and one part "pay for powers."

6th added BRB disciplines and random powers, and codified Warp Charge as a concept for casting, whereas in previous editions, powers were all over the place.

Note that 3rd to 6th edition all used a system of Psychic tests just being a Leadership Test, with snake eyes or boxcars causing Perils. The actual denial of powers was on a per-army basis for 3rd-5th, with a single 5e Psychic Hood or Njal capable of cutting all of your opponent's powers in half (and don't ask me to talk about Runes of Warding. Eldrad killed me more Psykers that way than through most any gun). 6th just added the ever-so-janky Deny the Witch mechanic instead.

Come 7th, the system changed to be more akin to WHFB. The best thing it did IMO was consolidate powers (which were cast all over a turn) into a single Phase. Although I still prefer activation systems, this resulted in far less bookkeeping overall. Each Psyker generated a number of Warp Charge that went into a communal pool for casting and denial. The system led to "all or nothing" casting and denial, as well as the phenomena of cheap Pstkers acting as batteries for larger ones. On the other hand, you had a system where the odds of Perils were directly correlated to your odds of success, and you could make a judgement call/decision over this.

And then come 8th, things were shaken up again. On one hand, you can choose your powers now. On the other hand, you can only attempt to cast a power once per turn.

Several issues have existed with Psyker Powers between editions, regardless of their implementation:

Extreme Variance: Say I take a unit of Conscripts, a unit of Scatter Laser Jetbikes, a Venom, etc. Roughly, I can mathhammer an average number of hits, wounds, failed saves, etc, knowing that statistics will favor results within 1 standard deviation of the mean amount of unsaved casualties. By contrast, you either manifest a power or you don't. You either get a free unit, or you wasted your Warp Charge with nothing to show for it. There is no "median" result, no variance or standard deviations. "All or nothing" scenarios where the game can be reduced to a coinflip hurt the game from a competitive standpoint (see: Stomp in 7e).

Horrific Internal Balance: Generally, damage powers have been inferior to auras or buffs. Ask a 5e player if they would take Smite over Null Zone, Eldritch Storm over Doom, etc. 4e used points. 5e didn't even try to balance, and 6e/7e went for the "If it's random, it's balanced" approach. 8e just went for "can only attempt to cast a power once", which means you take a Psyker for the 1 (or 2 if lucky) good powers in your Discipline, and ignore the rest, since most Witchfires are also inferior to Smite anyway!

Nullifying Powers is all over the Place: In many ways, the viability of Psyker powers in a given edition is dependent not just on the scalability of said powers, but how the anti-psi of that edition scales. In 5th Edition, Njal could hide in a Rhino and project a 24" bubble that turned off any and all enemy powers cast into it on a 3+. Inversely, 6th edition gave particularly infamous Screamerstar examples, since Deny the Witch was so weak. 7th used Warp Charge, which turned Denial into a resource-marshalling game, yet ironically made armies like World Eaters and Necrons unable to resist Psykers, for although they got bonuses to deny with the D6 Warp Charge they had, they didn't actually get their own Warp Charge to deny powers with! In that regard, you could argue that 8th has the best Denial mechanic yet (MagicJuggler admits to 8th improving something?!!?) since anti-psy is "one psyker can attempt to deny one power", yet certain units (Flesh Hounds) and Stratagems give non-psychic armies the chance to stop Psykers drom flinging powers around; the nonscalability of Stratagems is still relatively useless versus Smitespam, but is still useful versus any other power, due to those powers not being scalable. However, the moment armies get ways around the Psychic Focus limit, that system breaks down oncemore.

So, how would you fix Psychic Powers in general? Me personally, I prefer a system that "normalizes" powers so there's less of a sharp cutoff between a power being optimal or useless. In an earlier homebrew I worked on, I modified the 7e Psyker System, so rather than powers having a threshold for actually casting, you can cast any power on one success, but powers are *nowhere* on the same level as "Teleport your unit across the board for a free assault", "Can only be hit on 6s", or other high-power effects that are balanced out by being less likely to roll. (After all, D autokilled any standard 40k model "only" on a 6...). Rather, for each success beyond the first, the power would have a greater effect (to a max of 4 successes). Inversely, rather than Deny being "must match the number of successes to manifest" or "must roll higher than the manifest roll", successes on Deny the Witch simply subtracted successes from the power, so even if you didn't fully stop it, you would reduce its strength. This alone would make both casting and denial less of a crapshoot than in previous editions.

Non-Psyker Armies should be able to have a flat "Antipsi" bonus, where each level of anti-psi reduces the number of effective successes to manifest *any* power on them. No stacking buffs on Flesh Hounds. Think of a stronger form of Magic Resistance from WHFB 6th/7th.

What are your thoughts regarding your ideal Psyker system?

I really enjot the way 8th does casting. not having to roll 10+ dice and hope for some 4's, now youre just looking for the casting level on 2D6 i.e. 6 or above. I wish there was a little more flavor in the powers but I think that'll come with time. I dont think from a fluff perspective that only one person should be able to cast the same power per turn but if it helps from breaking the game then I'm all for it.

I kinda wish they'd have imported the old WHFB system over (from 6th edition, not the mess that was 8th). I liked that it was a micro resource management game in within the game, since you could either mitigate the potential randomness by using more dice if you really needed something to go off, or risk it by using less, and the same goes for dispelling/denying. The current one is simple but it feels like going back to the 4th/5th version, where psychic powers were basically glorified special rules.

As long as the power generation isn't random I don't really care what system is used. TBH the 8th system is perfectly fine IMHO.

The only change to the current system that I am interested to try is to allow the same power to be manifested more than once per turn, but at +1 difficulty per attempt. This would include smite, so armies spamming psykers for mortal wounds would need to prioritize how they order their powers, and the game would naturally balance out Smite spam, while allowing other powers to see more use.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I kinda wish they'd have imported the old WHFB system over (from 6th edition, not the mess that was 8th). I liked that it was a micro resource management game in within the game, since you could either mitigate the potential randomness by using more dice if you really needed something to go off, or risk it by using less, and the same goes for dispelling/denying. The current one is simple but it feels like going back to the 4th/5th version, where psychic powers were basically glorified special rules.

The problem with the 6th fantasy system was a "all or nothing". Or you spent hundreds of points on magic or you just didn't bothered.

Tower wrote:
The only change to the current system that I am interested to try is to allow the same power to be manifested more than once per turn, but at +1 difficulty per attempt. This would include smite, so armies spamming psykers for mortal wounds would need to prioritize how they order their powers, and the game would naturally balance out Smite spam, while allowing other powers to see more use.

This is great man, much better than the single cast we have now that kills any army with a decent number of psykers

The problem with psychic (much like magic in WHFB) has always been that out of a big bag of options there are often only 1-2 broken spells and a lot of terrible ones. So up to 75% of the roster is never seen. This seems like bad design.

I kind of liked the old 3.5-4 model of paying points for different powers. Mainly because this allows you to balance out powers which are never going to be equally good.

With a better eye to balance (which GW seem to be showing) you could have these teleporting abilities - or even old school invisibility - but if you have to pay for the psyker, and 100+ points for it then you will feel it. Whereas you could take old style mind bullets (I guess smite now) for say 10 points. It would be hard to find the line but theoretically at least you could give players choices without ending up with autotakes and trash.

As a Thousand Sons player I'm happy with the way 8th does psychic powers. The rule of one is good for balance IMO. The only complaint I have is the limited number of powers available, but once our codex comes out that'll certainly change.

I'm not real clear on why psychic powers need to be their own thing tbh. Witchfires being a specific type of ranged weapon would be fine, acts of faith and the various HQ buffs are a pretty good indicator that you don't need a whole phase for that either.

IMO, psykers should serve as the alternative to the heavily specialized character. Players could choose an HQ that is specialized in a single task like melee combat or they can choose a psyker that is more well rounded and capable of filling multiple battlefield roles. To do this they have a large selection of abilities that offer either offense or defense and you balance it by allowing the enemy deny the witch and you make psykers relatively more expensive.

I think 8th edition has done this fairly well but I'm really against the idea of perils of the warp and really wish they'd do away with it. There's no reason to make psykers more expensive AND give their main function a very clear counter AND give them a penalty on top of it.

So this is coming from someone who began the game with Craftworlders and plays every flavor of Aeldari now.

I think part of the reason the psychic system changes so often and never quite seems to satisfy is that most incarnations of psychic powers have tried a "one size fits all" approach. Having things like perils of the warp and the ability to draw in more warp power at a greater risk (ala 7th edition) makes sense for imperial psykers, but isn't it a little odd when today just happens to be the day that my centuries old farseer messes up and explodes his brains? Don't you think a Tzeentchly herald ought to be able to safely conjure some warp fire without accidentally scattering his form to the winds?
One of the things I really appreciated about warlocks in the 4th edition eldar codex was that their psychic powers were either passive buffs or shooting attacks that didn't require psychic tests. This warlock went to psyker school, and he knew how to handle his work equipment without blowing up the workshop. You could see that guy living for decades or even centuries as a psyker without accidentally exploding himself or transforming into a daemon.

So with that in mind, I like the idea of a system that embraces both "safe" and "dangerous" uses of psychic powers."Safe" powers would be less flashy or less powerful applications of powers. Basically, if it would be silly for the psyker to explode when using this power, it's a safe power. Safe powers would not require a psychic test to use. Dangerous powers are the "floating in a whirlwind while conjuring lightning to demolish tanks" type powers. If it would be badass instead of silly for the psyker to die using this power, then it's a dangerous power. Some powers could have both a safe mode and a dangerous mode. So for some examples...

Veil of Tears, the iconic harlequin power that no longer exists, would be a safe power that affects harlequin infantry within 6" of the psyker. It basically limits the range of things that want to shoot at affected units, so you can cross the board on foot relatively safely but are then susceptible to getting shot once you get close to the enemy. It would be very silly for your super rare, supposedly impressive shadowseer to spontaneously die while casting a power that is meant to keep harlequins safe. This would be a safe power.

Vortex of Doom: Very flashy. Very dangerous. Doesn't really make sense to have a "toned down" version of this. This is a dangerous power that lets you do some serious damage when you cast it succesfully.

Flickering Flames of Tzeentch: This is a safe power that basically gives the psyker a shooting attack. So it's basically a gun. The psyker can make a psychic test (which is dangerous) to temporarily call upon greater power, increasing the strength or number of shots or whatever for the gun profile until the unit's next psychic phase.

Kinetic Shield: As a safe version, the psyker has a 4+ invul save representing his ability to quickly call upon psychic force to shield himself from attacks. The dangerous version of this power lets him make a psychic test to grant a 5+ invul save to all friendly models within 12". One is the guy quickly throwing up a personal force field, the other is the guy broadcasting a glowing dome of energy across a large swathe of the battlefield to guard against incoming tank blasts and whole volleys of fire.

You could also possibly have "very dangerous" versions of powers that are either more difficult to cast or which inflict damage on the caster when they are cast succesfully. Think of the dramatic climax of a battle where the psyker exhausts himself but manages to turn the tide of battle as a result. So you might unleash a devastating shooting attack, or you might ignore armor for a turn or hurl an enemy across the battlefield. That sort of thing.

So what you have here, MagicJuggler, is a system where the extreme variance you describe is less of an issue. Warlocks don't suddenly make constipated expressions of focus only to fail to conjure the lightning of their destructor power (assuming that's a safe power). There are still larger, more powerful effects that you might fail to achieve, but you also have access to smaller, more reliable effects.


Also, I kind of hate the idea that psychic powers just outright fail. I get that that's a thing for like, some random human psyker, but how often do you see librarians and daemons flat-out failing to do their magic tricks? So to tie this in to my above suggestions of "dangerous" powers (which require psychic tests), I like the idea of a "dangerous" power requiring you take on more risk to cast it reliably. So as an example...

Rune Priest Skoll wants to shoot living lightning at an enemy. He has that power, and it has a ranged weapon profile. However, he's shooting at a great unclean one, and he knows that the normal profile for living lightning just won't cut it. He needs to really dig deep and unleash the storm. So he opts to cast living lightning dangerously. This means he needs to make a psychic test. If he fails the test, he shoots the normal profile for living lightning. If he passes the test, he gets... I d'know. Twice the number of shots or something. To make the psychic test, he can roll any number of d6s up to a maximum of the number of wounds he has remaining. If any of them come up a 4+, he succeeds on the test, BUT for each duplicate result he gets, he suffers a mortal wound. So Skoll opts to roll 3 dice and gets a 2, a 5, and another 5. The 5s are higher than 4, so he gets the better version of the lightning, but the duplicate 5s mean he suffers a single mortal wound.

So again, he WILL shoot lightning at his enemy, and he DOES risk harming himself if he calls on too much warp power, but he also has a less powerful version of the spell that he can use if he doesn't want to randomly explode in a burst of warp light.

They should look like goblin shamans. All of them.

The psychic phase and powers were the worst aspect of 7th edition.

It was a really time consuming phase, even with players who knew their stuff. This was terrible playing against and with pysker armies at tournaments. And when playing pick up games it often meant the game didn't finish because the player would not be as familiar as needed to stop it becoming an hour long phase each turn.

The powers were often so OP, even game breaking- invisibility.

So consequently 8th edition has got it spot on for me. The phase is quick, seemingly balanced and fun.

Mordian2016 wrote:
The psychic phase and powers were the worst aspect of 7th edition.

It was a really time consuming phase, even with players who knew their stuff. This was terrible playing against and with pysker armies at tournaments. And when playing pick up games it often meant the game didn't finish because the player would not be as familiar as needed to stop it becoming an hour long phase each turn.

The powers were often so OP, even game breaking- invisibility.

So consequently 8th edition has got it spot on for me. The phase is quick, seemingly balanced and fun.

I never quite found it time-consuming, but ymmv. Maybe the first time around, but keeping colored tokens/marbles made it far easier for both my opponent and I to know how many Warp Charge we had available. It was definitely less time-consuming compared to shooting or assault, simply because most Psyker Powers were less about the "bucket of dice" mode of attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyldhunt wrote:
So with that in mind, I like the idea of a system that embraces both "safe" and "dangerous" uses of psychic powers."Safe" powers would be less flashy or less powerful applications of powers. Basically, if it would be silly for the psyker to explode when using this power, it's a safe power. Safe powers would not require a psychic test to use. Dangerous powers are the "floating in a whirlwind while conjuring lightning to demolish tanks" type powers. If it would be badass instead of silly for the psyker to die using this power, then it's a dangerous power. Some powers could have both a safe mode and a dangerous mode. So for some examples...

Back in 6th and 7th WHFB, some armies had access to "Bound Spells" which were spells that would automatically succeed at a usually fixed casting value, that was normally low enough to Dispel. Such powers were usually less powerful (but infinitely safer and more reliable) than normal magic. 8th Fantasy completely gutted that system and made it so that you had to use the same Power Dice needed for spells in order to activate a Bound Spell, and you didn't even get your Wizard bonus to cast (but your opponent got the bonus to dispel). Not only was it a massive nerf to the viability of Bound Spells, but it completely eliminated the point of them in the first place!

In Inquisitor, there was a Perk called "Wyrd." A Wyrd knew one Psyker Power, but it was so innate that it always manifested as though the Psyker has Will 95. No matter what. I imagine in my system ("degreea of success"), Wyrd would be a special rule where a Psyker has Wyrd(Power, Level), letting them cast that power automatically with that many degrees of success, for that exact amount of Warp Charge. However, they would not be allowed to Push, put extra WC in the power, etc, etc.

I would like to point out that the "each power can only be cast once a turn" rule only applies to matched play. If you aren't playing in a tournament then the rule doesn't apply unless you want it to.

The current psychic system is probably the truest to lore of any element in the entire game. The warp is extraordinarily fickle in 40k. There should never be anything safe or guaranteed about psykers.

In terms of what I'd like to see from psykers:

- Random powers not used in lieu of balance.

- Selection of powers not random at all.

- Ease/difficulty in casting/denying powers shouldn't be affected by the number of psykers in the army. Obviously you won't be able to cast or deny if you don't have any, but I don't want a system like 7th, where armies that spam psykers can drown the enemy in warp charges.

- Powers not overly strong (I think stuff like Guide and Doom should really be at the top-end of what psychic powers can do). Basically, I don't think powers should be throwing out D-weapons or making units nigh-invincible like they could in 7th.

- No powers that allow rerolls of invulnerable saves.


Anyway, I think the 8th edition method works pretty well. It's definitely my favourite base system so far (I'll make my assessment of the actual powers once all the codices are out).

orkychaos wrote:
I would like to point out that the "each power can only be cast once a turn" rule only applies to matched play. If you aren't playing in a tournament then the rule doesn't apply unless you want it to.

The current psychic system is probably the truest to lore of any element in the entire game. The warp is extraordinarily fickle in 40k. There should never be anything safe or guaranteed about psykers.

"Only applies to Matched play" is not exactly reassuring, considering it remains the most likely form of pickup play. (Ditto the way people generally didn't play Unbound in 7th)

They should look like they do, only remove Chaos Demons from the game. That gakky army is holding everyone else back.

ERJAK wrote:
They should look like they do, only remove Chaos Demons from the game. That gakky army is holding everyone else back.

My literal army of Daemon wizards likely thinks it's everyone else holding THEM back.

2nd edition was my favorite for psykers. I loved Dark Millennium. The cards created their own strategy of drawing out dispells or holding them back in anticipation of something bigger. I also miss Total Power and Power Drain. I even missed this in Fantasy when they got rid of it.