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I'm mainly asking these questions for a Dark Heresy campaign that's coming up and just want to clarify if I'm missing any essentials. Questions are at the end of the passage.

Suppose you survive a thunderhawk crash in the middle of the ocean on some feral world due to an engine failure and only have mere moments to extract yourself from the ship.
You reach the back of the vessel and find low-grade ration bars, stablights (flashlights), a flare gun, a multicompass, and a vox-caster.
There are also other essentials like Medi-kits containing stimm and other antiseptics. However, there is only so much you can save from the intruding water coming in.

Actual description of the crash:
As water begins to breach the ship's interior, panic seizes the crew as the docking ramp opening mechanism becomes jammed.
There are no windows throughout anywhere of the ship with the exception of the cockpit, by which case the pilot is already desperately trying to kick open with his boots up against the windshield and seat inclined all the way back.
Even with the immense amount of effort, it is no use as the windshield is of a strong las-proof material meant to withstand the vacuum of space and not a single crack could be made.
* If no dice rolls/advancement can be made from the players *
Water begins to fill up to your waist as the ship submerges deeper into the depth of the ocean, you could feel the pressure getting into your head as your ears violently begin to pop.
* Continue making the situation worse and worse for acolytes if no dice rolls prove to be useful or their attempts become futile, try to hint at other means of escape *

Question dump ahead!
Are there any other emergency exits in a thunderhawk besides the docking ramp?
Would it make sense for a thunderhawk to contain a lifecraft (since most ships are meant for dry-land combat)? I'm assuming their seat cushions could be used as a flotation device like on modern day airplanes.
Could there ever be such a thing as a las-proof window? This is for the cockpit and a possible means of escape for the crew/players if they use something blunt on the windshield.
Is there anything I'm missing from Archimedes' principle on floatation/Could the thunderhawk possibly float?

Thunderhawks are really big - what is in really depends on the mission profile.

I am guessing its been "borrowed" by the Inquisition?

It has various doors that may be usable if there is still power and the pressure equalises (? I think not sure about that).

It had indivudal compartments which should be sealable and last a bit.

Things I would expect:

Armour, ammo and weapons (lots of it)
tools and spare parts
Food

but ti could be almost anything - the windscreen might be resistant to damage but pwoer weapons should get through it- that would be dangerous at depth though?.

As you mention, the Thunderhawk is built for space. What's causing it to take on board so much water, and from where? Surely if it's taking on that much water, there should be a hole large enough to swim out of.

The THawk has two side doors, which I'd assume would have bolts fitted to blast it out, in such a situation. As for floatation, I doubt it. If it's a Space Marine one, it has no need, since Space Marines can survive at the bottom of the sea floor.

Plenty of space on board.

But its got separate flight, forward and I think rear compartment. (window is armoured likely as a gunship. May not be kickable out)

There designed to seal in the void. There doors will close water tight. And explosive bolts seem not too broken idea.

As for auplies that depends on mission.
Basics always be ammo, med kits, spare parts for gear depending on who on board.

If inquisition, then loading a human survival kit like a boat, food supplies, and water etc incase of crash not too crazy.

Ammo, med kits. Of course.
Maybe some kind of all environment kit with winter, desert, and water survival gear if mixed missions.

Inquisition not short on gear, and can have propperly fitted out craft ao maybe they have a boxed kit like ships have incase of sinking.
They have flares. Boat, food water, radio etc , meds basic.

In imperial terms, ammo added maybe.

Its all pre loaded into the kit and boat, pops out, everything is prebuilt into the system.
So if they can get kit. They could have a pop out, but basic... Thee not equipped for weeks. Maybe its for a week max with transponders to guide rescure, flares for signalling. Not long term.

Hmmm, in a real-life situation of a plane coming down at sea and taking on water there's not really much consideration given to 'grabbing supplies'. It tends to be a mad panic to try and find a way out with your immediate consideration on little else but escape.

Perhaps if you had a hyper-logical character like a Mechanicus adept with implants to dump calming drugs into his biological thinking organ while assessing eventualities with his bionics.

What seems like a more realistic scenario is for the 'hawk to come down, passengers scramble and panic to escape, and then 'supplies' wash up on the shore as the currents drag the wreckage.

Ooh! Neat idea you could do for having the 'hawk break up (and instill a bit of terror in your players). Have it survive the impact and sink enough to be submerged but still floating. If your dudes survive you could have them treading water outside, debating whether to dive back in and get some suppies.

Then have a colossal alien sea-predator mistake the 'hawk for prey and smash it apart in its jaws right next to your dudes. Bit of an 'oh gak' moment, followed by wreckage washing up ashore

Your best bet is to see what emergency kit is on the C130, it fills a similar role in real life (not the same before anyone is a smart arse lol)

 Daemonhost Cherubael wrote:
Even with the immense amount of effort, it is no use as the windshield is of a strong las-proof material meant to withstand the vacuum of space and not a single crack could be made.

Vacuum of space is pretty easy to withstand, but this thing will have to survive atmospheric entry heat and incoming AA fire so it's probably armorglass you'd need a heavy weapon to break.

Otherwise spacecraft only need to withstand the pressure of any atmosphere they're supposed to fly in. Once they sink in water the pressure increases dramatically. Earth atmo is 14,5 psi at sea level, but once you go under the surface the pressure increases by that much for every 33 feet or so. You're probably at crush depth for the hull before reaching depths the passengers can't possibly escape without dying.

BUT... A craft this size and weight does have to take in a good deal of water before sinking - it displaces plenty more weight in water than it weighs itself. It'll float for a good while so the best bet for survival is to not open any hatches.

It's also got hover mode and should be able to land safely (and thus take no damage) unless engine power was lost completely. Without power it steers like a brick, hits the ocean in some weird angle at Mach 1,5 and disintegrates, instantly killing everyone.

Yeah, sorry for that. ;-)

To create that scenario maybe there was sabotage in the form of a bomb aboard? It took out forward thrust (not the engines in full) and caused hull penetration. The pilot managed to slow down and hover to a controlled landing, but the craft is now taking in water.

The supplies aboard should be stuff you'd expect your guys to need - food, water, guns and ammo, medical supplies (probably better than a first aid kit). Or if you don't want to do a full inventory allow each player to write down 2-3 items on paper and have him roll some dice for whether he could grab each one or not?

Could it float on a water landing with no holes in it? Maybe, or at the least it would sink really, really, slowly as there is more than enough air inside. There would need to be a fairly big hole in it to make it take on water quickly.

There are more than one door on board. at the very least, there is the frontal door and two side doors.

While the craft if powered by a fusion reactor there are still fuel lines and most aircraft, or at least real aircraft today, often store their fuel in the wings and the fuel could be buoyant, then again, we don't know exactly what the fuel could be. If its promethium which is essentially an analogue for gasoline/flammable hydro-carbons the liquid should float on top of water (ever done the density experiment by putting baby oil and water inside a bottle to see the oil separate and float to the top?).



Weapons stored onboard the craft could be used to cut a hole in the skin.

The Thunderhawk would likely float, depending on any damage sustained.

As for breaking the windshield to escape, you're probably out of luck trying to do that with any hand held devices short of a melta bomb or crack grenade. This is a aircraft that can fly in space and is built for combat. Smacking it's windows with your laspistol is an exercise in futility. Though the windows might have emergency switches which blow the glass if needed for a quick escape.

There would be plenty of supplies. Its just a question of how long you have to grab them.

If it was just engine failure, and not anything that compromised the hull of the ship, the Thunderhawk would likely float indefinitely to be honest. It wouldn't be like a normal airplane which would have an unsealed cargo hold that water could leak into and drag the pressurized passenger compartment down. Plus there is probably some futuristic safety devices which could keep it afloat.

The real challenge here is for your acolytes to either radio help or escape. So without immense physical damage to the hull there is no immediate risk of death. The risks come from exposure, starvation, or dehydration.

The Thunderhawk has multiple exit doors. The front assault ramp, 2 side doors, and numerous other hatches in various places.

You'd probably be better off it not being a thunder hawk.

Also, land raiders survive atmosphere re-entry and driving on the ocean floor, whilst the thunderhawks armour is not as thick, it could probably withstand quite high pressure at low ocean depths (I'm not opening a discussion about real life physics of the scenario here, in game fluff physics are different as we know).

The thunder hawk would not be taking on water unless it had a massive hole blasted in it.

You'd most likely be better off with something a little less lightly armoured and what an inquisitors retinue would have access too on a regular basis and could pre-plan what essentials they would need in case of a crash.

Space marines aren't likely to need much in the way of conventional medicine or rations due to the biology of them and how their power armour works to help them survive.

Something akin to a gun cutter would be a better craft for your scenario.

Just a quick point of logic on the 'cutting the way out' notion - that much heat in contact with water will create an awful lot of steam, which will most likely fill the crew compartment. Ouch!

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Ooh! Neat idea you could do for having the 'hawk break up (and instill a bit of terror in your players). Have it survive the impact and sink enough to be submerged but still floating. If your dudes survive you could have them treading water outside, debating whether to dive back in and get some suppies.

Then have a colossal alien sea-predator mistake the 'hawk for prey and smash it apart in its jaws right next to your dudes. Bit of an 'oh gak' moment, followed by wreckage washing up ashore

I like the way you think friend!

IIRC there is a short audio drama from the horus heresy about a single group of space wolves on a planet using gorilla parfait tactic go fight dark eldar, think about 10 space marines and a single thunder hawk and they had enough supplies to survive and use gorilla tactics to fast for like 2 months I think, also lost like 4 guys I believe

You should give it a listen was a good story any way.

Do military aircraft not tend to have emergency cutaway panels for crew rescue? That and ejection systems could be useful in getting out.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Space marines aren't likely to need much in the way of conventional medicine or rations due to the biology of them and how their power armour works to help them survive.
.

Exactly. I guess it would be difficult to know what supplies are in a thunderhawk, as Space Marines don't need a lot to survive. So I don't think we will get a lot of things described, even in stories taking place in a thunderhawk.

A thunderhawk is space worthy. As long as there aren't any huge holes, decompression safety hatches would shut and seal off any compartments with breaches.

And chock me up in the "it sinks" category. But that's not necessarily bad, unless you're in super deep ocean. Thunderhawk is capable of taking serious pressure, it is atmospheric and supersonic after all.

I think the most likely situation is it hits water, hatches seal off flooding compartments, and it sinks to the bottom. Everyone in non-breached compartments is safe and sound, just sort of trapped.

Given the armour on a Thunderhawk, any crash able to put a hole in one would likely reduce a group of humans to an impressive smear on one side. Since it's taking on water, it's safe to say someone has already opened a door or the engine failure was explosive and comprimised the hull severly.

Even then, your Acolytes can likely seal off whichever section is taking on water.

If the Thunderhawk is one used by the Inquisition and not one borrowed from a Space Marine chapter, then yes it will likely contain emergency survival gear, including shelters, screamers, and inflatable life rafts. The things as massive, and have plenty of storage room.

 argonak wrote:
Thunderhawk is capable of taking serious pressure, it is atmospheric and supersonic after all.

It's a space/landing craft, not a submarine. Pressure is a function of whatever presses down on you - vacuum pretty much nothing, planetary atmosphere not very much either. Go underwater and it suddenly increases very fast.

A spacecraft specifically built to withstand crushing water depths is wasting precious resources on a very unlikely scenario, increasing bulk, weight and fuel consumption needlessly.

Skulls.

Spetulhu wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Thunderhawk is capable of taking serious pressure, it is atmospheric and supersonic after all.

It's a space/landing craft, not a submarine. Pressure is a function of whatever presses down on you - vacuum pretty much nothing, planetary atmosphere not very much either. Go underwater and it suddenly increases very fast.

A spacecraft specifically built to withstand crushing water depths is wasting precious resources on a very unlikely scenario, increasing bulk, weight and fuel consumption needlessly.

Its an assault craft, used in a variety of environments. It needs to be able to withstand heavy pressure in gas giants or strange alien worlds, it is used in combat, and its about the least aerodynamic aircraft in the Imperial Arsenal, so its clearly built in such a way that normal flight aerodynamics mean nothing to it. This isn't the Apollo1 landing craft made out of tin foil and brass. The thunderhawk is a flying brick built to be shot at.

Lore wise Rhinos and Landraiders are completely amphibious, I would honestly be surprised if thunderhawks weren't.

Oh, mildly off-topic but if anyone was struggling with suspending their disbelief about the Imperium's flight vessels being essentially flying bricks that by all rights should drop out of the air I've got a piece of headcanon that helps with that.

Given that they're basically parroted civilian tech from the DAoT they may well be very advanced indeed, by today's standards. By utilising a number of small low-scale forcefield generators any design of craft could project a streamlined shape over the whole of the vessel. You could even make the whole thing one great aerofoil, and adjust that aerofoil almost infinitely on-the-fly.

So, they might look like bricks, but they can fly like damn near anything they like (within the bounds of physics).

This being the Imperium and their general lack of understanding, this functionality may be broken somewhat, explaining their ponderous flight. Perhaps it's stuck in one configuration for most of the flight vessels...

Spetulhu wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Thunderhawk is capable of taking serious pressure, it is atmospheric and supersonic after all.

It's a space/landing craft, not a submarine. Pressure is a function of whatever presses down on you - vacuum pretty much nothing, planetary atmosphere not very much either. Go underwater and it suddenly increases very fast.

A spacecraft specifically built to withstand crushing water depths is wasting precious resources on a very unlikely scenario, increasing bulk, weight and fuel consumption needlessly.

The vacuum would still be a matter of pressure, Just the opposite way around. if you put a balloon in a bell jar and place it under vacuum, the balloon expands as there is less resistance for it to take up more space. same argument as in a thunder hawk. Without a rigid frame it would expand until it popped like the aforementioned balloon if it could not resist pressure. Pressure of re-entry would also tear it to pieces.

Tristanleo wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Thunderhawk is capable of taking serious pressure, it is atmospheric and supersonic after all.

It's a space/landing craft, not a submarine. Pressure is a function of whatever presses down on you - vacuum pretty much nothing, planetary atmosphere not very much either. Go underwater and it suddenly increases very fast.

A spacecraft specifically built to withstand crushing water depths is wasting precious resources on a very unlikely scenario, increasing bulk, weight and fuel consumption needlessly.

The vacuum would still be a matter of pressure, Just the opposite way around. if you put a balloon in a bell jar and place it under vacuum, the balloon expands as there is less resistance for it to take up more space. same argument as in a thunder hawk. Without a rigid frame it would expand until it popped like the aforementioned balloon if it could not resist pressure. Pressure of re-entry would also tear it to pieces.

Not quite. There's a kickass Mythbusters episode where they test this with a massive tanker that's designed for holding pressurised loads. With comparatively little vacuum inside it collapsed. There are different design considerations when making stuff to resist pressure from outside and making stuff to resist pressure from inside.

Here's the video of the test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpWeU2fvFGs

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Oh, mildly off-topic but if anyone was struggling with suspending their disbelief about the Imperium's flight vessels being essentially flying bricks that by all rights should drop out of the air I've got a piece of headcanon that helps with that.

Given that they're basically parroted civilian tech from the DAoT they may well be very advanced indeed, by today's standards. By utilising a number of small low-scale forcefield generators any design of craft could project a streamlined shape over the whole of the vessel. You could even make the whole thing one great aerofoil, and adjust that aerofoil almost infinitely on-the-fly.

So, they might look like bricks, but they can fly like damn near anything they like (within the bounds of physics).

This being the Imperium and their general lack of understanding, this functionality may be broken somewhat, explaining their ponderous flight. Perhaps it's stuck in one configuration for most of the flight vessels...

Yeah. Imperial flight technology basically requires the use of antigrav or other sorts of force fields that simply defy the laws of aerodynamics.

Tristanleo wrote:

The vacuum would still be a matter of pressure, Just the opposite way around. if you put a balloon in a bell jar and place it under vacuum, the balloon expands as there is less resistance for it to take up more space. same argument as in a thunder hawk. Without a rigid frame it would expand until it popped like the aforementioned balloon if it could not resist pressure. Pressure of re-entry would also tear it to pieces.

First of all, being able to withstand the differential between 1 atmosphere of internal pressure and 0 atmospheres of external pressure does not mean that a structure can withstand the differential between 1 atmosphere internal and 2 external.

Secondly, we are talking massive pressure very quickly from descending to any depth. Approximately 1 atmosphere per 10m. That means that a depth of just 100m has a pressure differential 10x greater than a pressured vehicle in vacuum.

Third, and the biggest problem for this scenario, it's highly likely that space marine vehicles deal with high external pressure by increasing their internal pressure. When everyone inside is wearing power armour (or for the example of the unmanned land raider at the bottom of the ocean) this is a very sensible strategy. For fragile human passenger, not so much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 argonak wrote:

Its an assault craft, used in a variety of environments. It needs to be able to withstand heavy pressure in gas giants or strange alien worlds,

Are their any examples of thunder hawks operating in high pressure environments? The only gas giant example I can think of was in the very upper atmosphere where humans were fine outside with just an air supply.

I would recommend switching it to a Valkyrie instead of a Thunderhawk. Unless your Inquisitor is a VERY influential person, a Chapter of Marines are very unlikely to let him borrow one of their precious vehicles. This helps you out in a few ways. One, it's a much more reasonable vehicle to try and escape from and two, the survival gear needs of an Imperial Guardsman are quite different from those of a Space Marines. A Marine pretty much just needs bolter ammo and Purity Seals and he can survive in any environment. A Guardsman will need food, shelter, water, hostile environment equipment, and weaponry. Things I am certain you would find in the emergency supplies stash on a Valkyrie:

50 copies of the Imperial Guardsmen Infantry Uplifting Primer
Vox Caster w/ extra batteries
Lasgun Battery Packs
Flashlights/Chem lights
Bayonets/Combat Knives
Machete/Hand Axe
Rebreathers
Rations and a means to cook and eat them (MRE's are a good example. It's a self contained package that included a heating element and utensils) But for lulz yours could be expired by like 350 years...
Canteens
Water and a water purifying source (probably tablets)
Fire starting implements (matches, lighters, magnesium strips)
Cold Weather Gear
Signal Flares
Imperial Propaganda warning the passengers not to talk to aliens or betray the Imperium by giving up hope.
Literature from the Commisariat instructing survivors how to maintain proper discipline in a crisis.
Literature from the Departmentum Munitarium instructing survivors that this is the Emperor's equipment and it is not to be wasted under penalty of death.
Life jackets, I doubt anything inflatable like a raft.
Entrenching tools (shovels)
Rope
A tent, or enough tarp and canvas to build a shelter.
Medical equipment (basic stuff, bandages, antiseptic, tourniquets, nothing more advanced than sutures)
Anti radiation medication
Finally, some soap and toilet paper. Maintaining cleanliness in a survival situation is critical. Sickness and infection kill a lot faster than starvation. In a crisis, more people will die from not washing their hands after pooping, an infected cut, or drinking unsafe water than starving.
I doubt there'd be any weapons in with the survival gear. The ship would probably have loads of weapons on board, but not mixed in with the emergency stash.

Any realistic survival equipment would be secured in an easy to reach, easy to carry, easy to identify bag or backpack. You grab it, and you go. Scattering everything around would only make sense if the bag ripped open.

Really, any ready made 3 Day Bag (Google it) is a great starting point, but you'll need to Grimdark it up with ridiculous add ons like 40 pounds of books and candles, statues, log books, and stuff that's been out of date for a few centuries. Also, there must be a skull involved somehow.

Have fun.

I agree switch it from a Thawk to another vehicle, the Arvus Lighter or Valkyrie work, so does a generic or homemade shuttle. Then it can do anything you want without a long fluff debate.

Heck call it a 7447 and make it equivalent to the familiar jet liners.

As for gear if it just carries standard gear it may have all sorts of odd items. Spacesuits, an inflatable dome, cold weather gear, machetes, and certainly some humor like IandI said, Imperial Primers, spare dress uniforms, a crate of instruments for a regimental brass band, it can be fun to see how the players might end up using them.

As touched on earlier, any space-going craft would be watertight under normal circumstances - but after a crash into the sea who knows how much damage could be sustained? A ship able to take the vacuum of space may not be able to take a reversal of pressure, especially as it sinks.

The survivors could think they have the situation under control but then note they are slowly sinking as the ship's armor has been compromised by the impact. A dripping crack in the main hull may at first be very manageable, but perhaps a ship system or an external influence (said aquatic creature) is causing the leak to increase, forcing the group to make rapid decisions! Darn fun.

There is a box of 300+ skulls soon to be released by GW. Look there for guidance

Oh also in real life it's common to make windows that are bullet proof in one direction but can be broken from the inside for occasions like this. Even if we don't want to credit Imperial material science with that ability the windows probably would have some sort of explosive bolts/emergence release for situations like this.