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Hi all,

I am a returning player, having played since start of 2nd ed through to 4th before phasing out til now. Looking to get back into the Frey.

Note: Edited to have 2 detachments following correction

Have the following list that I would like comments / critique on with 8th edition in mind.

Exactly 2k points

Battalion Detachment

HQs
Yvraine
Farseer with Witchblade

Troops
5 Kalabite Warriors
5 Kalabite Warriors
5 Harlequin troupe with Embrace, 2 with Fusion Pistols
Heavy Support
4 Dark Reapers, Exarch with Aeldari Missile Launcher
Flyers
Wraithfighter
Wraithfighter
Transports
Starweaver

Vanguard Detachment

HQ
Warlock with Witchblade
Elite
5 Wraithguard D-scythes
5 Wraithguard D-scythes
5 Shadow Spectres with Exarch
Transports
WaveSerpent with Twin Shurikan Cannon and Vectored Engines
WaveSerpent with Twin Shurikan Cannon and Vectored Engines.

My thoughts,
Mobile list that has a lot of inbuilt defence against melee forces thanks to the number of units with flamed style weapons.
Excellent anti tank capabilities from all the D weapons.
Fair number of sources of Mortal wounds from psykers and Serpents when needed.

This is intendsd for semi competitive use but no spamming or severe beard.

Appreciate comments and suggestions.

Thanks!

Shadow Spectres are elite, not fast attack

FarseerReborn wrote:
Shadow Spectres are elite, not fast attack

Your right, for some reason I hadn't spotted that!

That being the case I guess I really need to figure out how to squeeze in a warlock for the Vanguard Detachment CP..

Thanks

Note: now update my list accordingly.

Any comments or suggestion welcomed

Why choose kabalites over guardians?

This list looks really interesting! The wraithguard serpents are super durable and between them and the wraithfighters you should attract a lot of your opponents fire power away from your squishier units.

One unit that is completely unprotected though is your dark reapers. They are extremely vulnerable walking around the field. An opponent could easily pick them off using storm bolters, SMS, or other small weapons fire

FarseerReborn wrote:
Why choose kabalites over guardians?

Good question. The main reason for not taking guardians is I did not have points to buy them transports too, and their short range does. Not lend them well to foot slogging to get in range. Kabalite Warriors at 5 strong will still hold my back field objectives whilst having potential range to targets. And I need them to field the Battalion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Helvost wrote:
This list looks really interesting! The wraithguard serpents are super durable and between them and the wraithfighters you should attract a lot of your opponents fire power away from your squishier units.

One unit that is completely unprotected though is your dark reapers. They are extremely vulnerable walking around the field. An opponent could easily pick them off using storm bolters, SMS, or other small weapons fire

Thanks Helvost. I was hoping to give the primary threats in the army the speed and threat to make my opponent have to direct to them, whilst having unit redundancy by having 2 each of the Serpents, Wraithguard and wraithfighters.

I completely agree Reapers are the most vulnerable (everything else at least has -1 to hit them and redundant charge defence with auto hits, along with conceal from the warlock/flyers when out of their transports).

I just really like the Dark Reapers and I am hoping the points around urgent threats keeps my opponent focusing on other things rather than my Dark Reapers.. Otherwise not much else I can do if I take them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also had the following deployment tactic idea..

Deploy with Reapers and Characters in one of the Wave Serpents instead of one of the Wraithguard to protect them from first turn shooting and then on first turn, deploy the characters 3" forward to push forward and buff the attacking force and deploy Reapers back in cover. Wraithguard outside can then jump into wave serpent and fly off with the rest of assault army.

This has the advantage of protecting my more vulnerable Dark Reapers, whilst giving the characters a free 3" move at start of my first turn.

Does that sound like a decent idea to help protect the Reapers?

Wraithguard are a lot more sturdy and if deploy correctly only indirect fire DS units should be able to fire at them and their D-scythes should help against any potential first turn charges against them...

That would certainly work better, especially is someone was coming at you with deep-strike or some heavy long range shooting.

Alternatively you could drop the wraithguard in favor of more dark reapers depending on how much you like them. It could work really well since you already have some d-scythes on the wraithfighters. The extra range from the reapers could be awesome

 Helvost wrote:
That would certainly work better, especially is someone was coming at you with deep-strike or some heavy long range shooting.

Alternatively you could drop the wraithguard in favor of more dark reapers depending on how much you like them. It could work really well since you already have some d-scythes on the wraithfighters. The extra range from the reapers could be awesome

I do really like the Wraithguard, just extremely flexible, not vulnerable to charging, excellent WofP target and ultimately another mobile objective grabber. Replacing with Reapers would provide more ranged support but I think I will keep in back pocket for now.

Wraithguard also have the added benefit of being excellent against flyers. Auto hit at S10. Against cron and other Eldar waveserpents, their 1 damage each is actually an advantage.

Worth noting that Wraithguard damage output with d-scythes is about the same as those with wraithcannons or firedragons, but benefit of being better against groups of infantry and benefit against being charged.

I really like d-scythes

Thought I'd give an update on this list.

Both HQs are great. Never leave home without either of them.

Shadow Specres have been good and very flexible. Tag team with hemlock conceal and they are tough to budge.

Wraithguard have been great against everything. Another very flexible unit. Damage almost never get less than 10 shots for each 5 guard unit, thanks to CP.

Hemlocks are hated on but tend to take it in turns on conceal so mitigated some of the attention on them and combined with lack of reducing BS issue these go on longer than expected, whilst supporting the mobile guard and spectre attacks.

Kabalites have been good just purely for being able to hold back field objectives, debt deepstrike zones in my deployment and bubble wrap Reapers against melee/ sac charge for trigger SfD. 35 pts per unit can't ask for more.

Harlequins been underwhelming. Heavily damage 1 unit/vehicle but rarely take out in a single turn. Glass cannon not making back its points or doing enough damage. And Smite is just brutal against them.

Almost forgot to mention the Dark Reapers. These were good and effective against most targets. Felt at times that I really wanted the AP to be -3 instead of -2. But still valuable contributions made none-the-less.

So on that bases adjusted list now looks like this:

Farseer with Witchblade 113pts
Yvraine 132pts
5 Kabalite Warriors 35pts
5 Kabalite Warriors 35pts
5 Kabalite Warriors 35pts
5 Wraithguard with D-scythes 225pts
5 Wraithguard with D-scythes 225pts
5 Shadow Spectres with Exarch 119pts
5 Shadow Spectres 115pts
7 Dark Reapers inc Exarch wit EML 246pts
WaveSerpent VecEng 2 Shur Can 149pts
WaveSerpent VecEng 2 Shur Can 149pts
Hemlock Wraithfighter 211pts
Hemlock Wraithfighter 211pts

Are your Dark Reapers surviving? Seems like they'd be the obvious first target for anti-infantry fire.

They tend to survive the first couple of turns, deploy with them in wave serpent and switch out with guard on my first turn. Stick Kabalites around them if any DS or turn 1 / 2 assault risk.

With the Wraithfighters, d-scythe guard and spectres in their face, they tend to have a lot of tough targets to contend with already.

I would say they are the least performing unit but then the others are all solid versatile units and 2 of each for redundancy too

 Helvost wrote:
This list looks really interesting! The wraithguard serpents are super durable and between them and the wraithfighters you should attract a lot of your opponents fire power away from your squishier units.

One unit that is completely unprotected though is your dark reapers. They are extremely vulnerable walking around the field. An opponent could easily pick them off using storm bolters, SMS, or other small weapons fire

Agree with Helvost - I really am liking serpents in this edition. I run mine with 3 SC, Spirit Stones, and Vectored Engines. It really has caused some of my opponents trouble trying to crack one. I'm building a list similar to this but without the flyers and instead bringing 2 units of wraith guard and 2 units of fire dragons. Having all of them in Serpents. With all this turn one deep strike and charge nonsense, you have to protect these valuable units.

sonikn2o wrote:

 Helvost wrote:
This list looks really interesting! The wraithguard serpents are super durable and between them and the wraithfighters you should attract a lot of your opponents fire power away from your squishier units.

One unit that is completely unprotected though is your dark reapers. They are extremely vulnerable walking around the field. An opponent could easily pick them off using storm bolters, SMS, or other small weapons fire

Agree with Helvost - I really am liking serpents in this edition. I run mine with 3 SC, Spirit Stones, and Vectored Engines. It really has caused some of my opponents trouble trying to crack one. I'm building a list similar to this but without the flyers and instead bringing 2 units of wraith guard and 2 units of fire dragons. Having all of them in Serpents. With all this turn one deep strike and charge nonsense, you have to protect these valuable units.

Wave Serpents are definitely good at delivering their payload. I can see why you would want to take more of them. I'm not sure though that you need the extra Wraithguard and Fire Dragons. I think if you decide to drop the flyers you really need to replace them with something that the list is otherwise lacking in. Melee units could be a way to go, though I have found with all the psuedo Flanders, melee units are less of a threat, and most of the units can just disengage and still shoot anyway.

Don't under estimate the synergies and tactics enabled by the wraithfighters though. They can be used to shield your deployment against non-flying assault units on turn 1.

They also work great with Shadow Spectres by putting up Conceal, just Advance the Shadow Specres and use their auto hit shots.

Being able to fly 80" and still fire at full effect is amazing and enables you to snipe I'll-placed characters, especially those that do not have he benefit of being in a horde force as hiding them becomes very difficult.

Lastly, having seen Assassins which have got some concern, this list isn't too worried as 6 units auto hitting and Dark Reapers hitting on 3+ easily takes care of pesky assassins with their 6's to hit them.

Drake003 wrote:

Hemlock Wraithfighter 211pts

Don't forget to add your spirit stones for 10pts

Otherwise the list looks really good. I want to run something similar but utilizing the zippy punch of Corsair Skyreavers. A relatively cheap way to get A LOT of firepower anywhere you need it.

 exliontamer wrote:

Drake003 wrote:

Hemlock Wraithfighter 211pts

Don't forget to add your spirit stones for 10pts

Otherwise the list looks really good. I want to run something similar but utilizing the zippy punch of Corsair Skyreavers. A relatively cheap way to get A LOT of firepower anywhere you need it.

Good call. Can't believe I missed that for Spirit Stones

Are the corsair Skyweavers a bit pts pricey for what they do? I have considered them.. any thoughts on their effectiveness would be interesting in context of this style of list maybe.

Flexibility is the main strength of this list, along with redundancy and lack of vulnerability to hit modifiers.

I could be convinced to drop 1 flyer if I find a suitable replacement..

You are probably right that they are a bit overcosted.

However, consider:
- A 10 man unit with 8 shardcarbines (best weapon choice, no constest) and two Shuriken Cannons will run you 164 pts
- They move 16" flat and can certainly afford to advance as all their good weapons are Assault and they are BS 3+
- Can output 24 poison shots at 18" along with 6 bladestorming Cannon shots
- At 8" or closer they have the potential to output a whopping 60 poison shots from their pistols with mini-bladestorm (but also the potential to output only 10...whomp whomp)
- They can shoot these badass pistols in combat, or simply fly away and shoot with their other guns...cannot be locked down/prevented from shooting
- When charged if they cause even a single casualty they can now suddenly be 3" further away...remember they output 30 pretty good shots from any chargeable distance and often more...chances of inflicting at least one casualty are pretty good at that point
- They can be taken as Ynnari and not lose the above special rule...gaining the ability to shoot twice or be very, very fast/mobile for obj grabbing
- They do have a crap save, as do most Eldar, so they need Conceal which they DO NOT have access to currently

Is any of this worth the price tag? I would argue yes if you are running bigger, more flashy threats...so we are talking in high point cost games, probably not in 500pt-1000pt skirmishes. Your opponent either focuses them realizing what a pain/threat they are, or ignores them until they learn better. If Corsairs are updated/fixed to get their HQ units and psykers back they could easily become an even bigger pain in the ass, but despite promising to not squat any playable armies from 7th ed, GW clearly lied when it came to Corsairs. Bummer.

EDIT:
I should mention that Scourges are very similar but:
- are FA not Troops
- only move 14" (only! haha)
- have no sick brace of pistols
- do have a 4+ / 6++
- no access to Shuriken Cannons
- can deep strike

You do make some very interesting observations.

Dropping 1 Wraithfighter would enable me to switch 2 units of Kabalite Warriors for 2 units of 5 of those Corsairs and keep enough points to add 2 or 3 Dark Reapers.

I only want the 1 unit in army larger than 5 strong to utilise WotP without giving more than 1 juicy target.

That would certainly increase firepower without denting TAC layout or diminish anti tank firepower on balance with the extra Reapers.

Will play test that thanks.

It may be they are a bit squishy but with SfD that should help mitigate losses somewhat.

Thanks

If you are going the corsair route I would suggest running them as a unit of 10 minimum. The advantage they bring in being able to negate first turn charges with their move back 3" rule is great and 10 gives them a very realistic chance of reliably doing it. A unit of 5 is not putting out enough shots to get that important overwatch kill needed regularly.
You can always go the non jump pack corsairs which will save you some points and are cheap enough that they are expendable.

Yeah, I am torn between MSU and 10-man for these reasons. MSU clearly creates more targets and also more opportunity for SFD. But the 10-man has a much better chance of getting truly devastating pistol rolls...and honestly makes a rather great WotP target or backup target...getting to shoot those pistols twice will wipe a lot of units/monsters/characters right off the board. And a 24" threat range is no joke.

I have considered the footslogging Reavers too, but until they get access to a transport they are kinda meh in my opinion. Kabalites are just as good (if not better, because cheaper) for backline obj holding and what have you.

I like them as a deep strike charge counter. A unit of 10 can spread well to have a decent buffer zone, then they can shoot whatever is going to charge them for a chance to draw back likely out of harms way. Keeps a good bubble wrap without having to necessarily sacrifice the unit. And if they do die they are 110 points and will then trigger soulburst. Has worked alright so far.

But yes might be worth just throwing away 15 kabalites for the same cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really like the list tho. It deals with a lot of army types very well and uses a lot of the strongest tools available to eldar in this edition.

Thanks for the helpful comments and feedback.

I like the idea of the Corsairs, just so long as the overall force is not impeded too much to fit these in.

Ditching one of the 2 Wraithfighter is not a huge deal and that's 201 pts straight away (after adding the extra 10pts to the other Wraithfighter for the spirit stones I hadn't paid for) and for each unit of Corsairs they are replacing 35pts worth of Kabalite Warriors. So assuming 2 squads worth that's 271 pts to play with..

Could fit 2 squads and still squeeze 2 extra Dark Reapers to replace some of the anti tank firepower the Wraithfighter provided.

Will revise list and trial.

Wyldcarde wrote:


But yes might be worth just throwing away 15 kabalites for the same cost.

Yup, I mean the Reckless Abandon is a neat rule and all, probably really good against Raptors and AL Berzerkers and things with 1 wound that want to get close to you, but against shooting a 5+ is a 5+ is a 5+...which means the 5 extra bodies could matter. And there's no way to get around it either as Corsairs can't be targeted/affected by any of the defensive buffs or bubbles currently in existence.

Which I guess would mean straight Drukhari Kabalites win out in the weathering shooting category due to PFP (relevant immediately at turn 1 and again at turn 4). Fifteen of those bad boys in cover would be hard for a lot of things to shift from range, especially turn 4+.

The good news is in a situation where you need to optimize you can use the models pretty much interchangeably (I defy someone to tell a splinter rifle and shardcarbine apart at distance). So versus Chaos or Orks or what have you, run them as Reavers, versus Tau/Shooty Guard/etc run them as Kabalites. I mean this is all assuming you care about squeezing every ounce of value out of your points. For a friendly game I think always take Reavers because of the potential for cool.

Yeah it comes down to your meta I guess in relation to that call.
I like the idea of pretty much nullifying a first turn charge with a 100 pt unit (and some nifty deployment). Not to mention they have a lot more shots they throw out than the kabalites. But lack fnp and 5 less bodies for the privilage.
I have found with all the other threats on the board they aren't exactly priority one on the to kill list. But there are definitely games where an extra 5 kabalites would be preferable.
And it also very much dependant on the rest of the army.

I will try with both. See how they compare. Main opponents tend to be Marines and Astra Militarum so a good base to compare against.

With regards PfP, unless I'm reading the index incorrectly, Kabalites won't benefit from that rule anyway due to SfD replacing PfP.

I do like the 15 Kabalites though, as back field objective holders, triggers of SfD, DS zone deniers and bubble wrap for Reapers. And 35pts for 5 you really are never disappointed.

Will try them and feedback

Update on how I have found this list works and latest list based on those experiences:

Dark Reapers are powerful but typically target priority 1. Almost want to go second with them due to being able to hide in the Serpent during opponents first turn. Tend to struggle to make their points back. As their only purpose is to kill things, this isn't a great start. These have been dropped out of my latest list.

Wraithguard with Doom Scythes. These guys are solid however their 1 purpose is killing things. They do that pretty well. However, 2 units tends to be a big points sink, especially when combined with the obligatory wave Serpents. That means less points for objective grabbing and more reliance on getting close at the cost of no impact on turn 1 of the game due to being too far from enemy and their treat bubble being rather small and easy to avoid. I have dropped down to 1 unit. Still need some effective scary firepower but 1 unit is usually ok.

Wave Serpents are great for what they are designed to do, transport their cargo. Very surviveable. But for their points (although value for money) the investment has to be worth what they are transporting. For this reason, and the 2 changes above, now dropped down to 1. This will be first priority for Fortune to help keep it alive. Wraithfighters also help draw away some firepower.

With the drop in points from these changes, I made the following additions:

3rd unit of Shadow Spectres. These guys are very versatile, have a solid threat bubble, their -1 to hit them combos nicely with Wraithfighter conceal. And their weapons make them effective against GEQs, MEQs and TEQs. Being small units of 5 each, they can easily secure positions in cover for the extra save and when they do get taken down can trigger SfD quite nicely.

Shining Spears. I was finding I needed a bit more manoeuvrability to help build up early objective points. These are so much better than wind riders and mae a great target for turn 1 WotP. They also keep up with Hemlock Conceal bubble which is nice. Make an excellent escort of the Autarch Skyrunner. Which leads me to:

Autarch Skyrunner. With the extra unit of Shadow Spectres, and now the Shining Spears, this guy makes an excellent addition to the list. Rerolling ones is very good, especially with Shadow Spectres. Also means I don't need to take Guide on Farseer, so can focus on his other powers. Plus with Twin catapult, laser lance and fusion gun, he packs a punch in both shooting and melee!

Venoms. What I really needed was more cheap mobility for objective grabbing. With the remaining spare points Venoms fit the bill here. They provide another distraction and can soak overwatch for the Shining Spears. Also means I can drop off a unit of kabalites to camp on objective whilst moving to capture another one. Also not bad rate of Fire with Kabalites inside against hordes. Not amazing for the points but not bad either.

The rest of the army performed as expected. Wraithfighters are really good, especially with taking it in turns to put up Conceal bubble so that Spectrss can benefit each turn (take it in turns as Spectres can't keep up with 1, but 2 can cross cross their movement on the table to coincide with the Spectes movement).

Tried Corsairs but found needed them in larger numbers to effectively bubble wrap, but then they just became away pickings and points sink. And army being mostly mounted up first turn, any units wiped out doesn't really benefit from SfD

So, latest version of the list looks like this:

2000pts exactly with 7 CPs
Battalion Detachment:
Farseer with WitchBlade 113pts
Yvraine 132pts
5 Kabalite Warriors 35pts
Venom 80pts
5 Kabalite Warriors 35pts
Venom 80pts
5 Kabalite Warriors 35pts
5 Wraithguard with D-scythes 225pts
WaveSerp VecEng, SS, 3 Shur Can 161pts

Vanguard Detachment:
Autarch Skyrunner, Banshee Mask, Fusion Gun, Laser Lance 130pts
5 Shadow Spectres with Exarch 119pts
5 Shadow Spectres with Exarch 119pts
5 Shadow Spectres with Exarch 119pts
4 Shining Spears Exarch StarLance 175pts
Hemlock Wraithfighter, Spirit stone 221pts
Hemlock Wraithfighter, Spirit stone 221pts

Interesting changes.
Being all mounted up changes the dynamic of the list.
Shining spears are a good addition and great in this edition.
Shadow spectres are clear mvps. Will be interesting to see if they survive for long in their current form as they are super powerful.
dark reapers are really good this edition but obviously become a huge target because of it. One option I have been running with them is in a bastion. It's a bit more pricey than a wave serpent but gives 20 T9 3+ wounds that need to be got through before they can kill the reapers inside. The downside is you can't buff them or wotp them, but does mean they are more likely to last to see turn 2. Especially with the wraithfighters and wave serpents to worry about it can be overwhelming for your opponents anti tank.
I haven't previously been a fan of autarches but your chosen loadout is definitely the best way to take them. And with all those shadow spectres in 3 squads it's definitely worth taking.
I prefer to run my spectres in a single squad of 10 to maximise their soulburst and also benefit from guide. Haven't had anyone really get a hold of them yet either.

The dynamic change of the list has been both more fun and more adaptable to my opponents. The extra speed and versatility has benefitted me more than the sheer power of the second Wraithguard unit.

Shining Spears have really impressed. And thanks to havin 3 units of Spectres, the Spears often get pushed down opponents priority to kill.

I really wanted the 3rd unit of Spectres as just a straight up doubling in size of the second unit for SfD and Fortune reasons. However, I have found the extra models due more quickly due to the extra attention they attract, compared to the potential benefit of firing twice. Trust me, first time you do that with 10 of them, opponent won't let them do that again!

Units of 5 are also a lot easier to duck into cover.

Appreciate the comments, good to hear you are having good results too

Yes, the shadow spectres have a big target on them and a unit of 10 is a big target, however with conceal and their hard to hit giving -2 to hit I almost want them to shoot at them. They are not an easy unit to deal with. Especially with dark reapers and shining spears threatening as well it is an overwhelming array of high threat targets the enemy have to deal with.
And after shooting twice with a 10 man squad you should sufficiently cripple the biggest threat back to the shadow spectres.
Personal preference tho. one of the good things about 8th ed and ynnari in particular is there are pros and cons to taking full squads as opposed to msu. Both choices can be a trade off.

I wish forgeworld would get their crap together, releasing a full corsair army at the end of 7th and then yanking it for 8th was cruel. I run 2 units of corsairs 8 man strong and with good bubble wrap my dark reapers are rarely in trouble turn one. Terrain for 8th edition should be more heavy making it very easy to hide reapers turn 1. My spears are hit or miss though have to get them in close quickly!

After the couple of tests with Spears, I find WorP Turn 1 to get them into full shooting and melee range works well. Just make sure they approach on one flank and send most of the hard hitters that way too, to back them up. Other flank tends to be the Venoms just capturing objectives.

Corsairs didn't work as well for me, maybe work better in a more dedicated Corsair force