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Made in us
Giggling Nurgling





Quick question just to make sure:

If I take an Alpha Legion Chaos Sorcerer in terminator armor, a Chaos Lord in terminator armor, and then say three troop choices of chaos marines or just full squads of cultists (120 cultists total in three squads lol) could I use the Forward Operatives stratagem on those three troop squads before the battle begins, set those three squads up before the first turn, then on my turn deep strike my Chaos Lord and Sorcerer to support the troops? Maybe a dark apostle too for morale, who knows.

In the BRB, it says for matched play that a commander can not use the same stratagem in the same phase more than once, but it does not affect stratagems used before the game begins, so rules as written I could use this stratagem on an entire army of infantry if I wanted to (and if I had the command points for it).

Ultimately I play death guard, but I've been having trouble getting across the board in some games (not all, DG are tough, but sometimes just fighting against all shooting armies can be too tough), so I was thinking that on first turn being able to just send an army of troops that could deploy 9 inches away, move up, shoot, then assault first turn is well worth the 3+ command points being used. It feels fuffy too to be used with DG because I can give all of the models the Mark of Nurgle as a keyword, so they're Alpha Legion Nurgle units. Rad.

Is this legal?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/13 15:32:17


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Not sure cultists can get alpha legion keyword.

If they can't due to not getting heretic astartes keyword, they are not eligible to select for that startegem.
   
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Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Yes, you can use the same Forward Operatives stratagem repeatedly. It's used during deployment and so you aren't prohibited to 1 per turn.

It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





SO cultists do get the heretic astartes keyword, so they could be chosen as valid alpha legion units. g2g
   
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Sinewy Scourge




 Mekrot wrote:

If I take an Alpha Legion Chaos Sorcerer in terminator armor, a Chaos Lord in terminator armor, and then say three troop choices of chaos marines or just full squads of cultists (120 cultists total in three squads lol) could I use the Forward Operatives stratagem on those three troop squads before the battle begins, set those three squads up before the first turn, then on my turn deep strike my Chaos Lord and Sorcerer to support the troops? Maybe a dark apostle too for morale, who knows.


Wouldn't this fall fall of the 50% must be deployed on the board rule? I might be missing something, not got my book on me so could easily be misremembering.
   
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Dakka Veteran






Drager wrote:
 Mekrot wrote:

If I take an Alpha Legion Chaos Sorcerer in terminator armor, a Chaos Lord in terminator armor, and then say three troop choices of chaos marines or just full squads of cultists (120 cultists total in three squads lol) could I use the Forward Operatives stratagem on those three troop squads before the battle begins, set those three squads up before the first turn, then on my turn deep strike my Chaos Lord and Sorcerer to support the troops? Maybe a dark apostle too for morale, who knows.


Wouldn't this fall fall of the 50% must be deployed on the board rule? I might be missing something, not got my book on me so could easily be misremembering.


yes it would. As the stratagem clearly states that you set the unit up "in concealment instead of placing it on the battlefield" so max 50% of your units can get the benefit.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




I see this being useful for the odd unit of say, Space Marines or cultists footslogging. But the rules (and I'm sure a TO in any event) would prevent completely hiding one's list.
   
Made in us
Giggling Nurgling





 minisnatcher wrote:
Drager wrote:
 Mekrot wrote:

If I take an Alpha Legion Chaos Sorcerer in terminator armor, a Chaos Lord in terminator armor, and then say three troop choices of chaos marines or just full squads of cultists (120 cultists total in three squads lol) could I use the Forward Operatives stratagem on those three troop squads before the battle begins, set those three squads up before the first turn, then on my turn deep strike my Chaos Lord and Sorcerer to support the troops? Maybe a dark apostle too for morale, who knows.


Wouldn't this fall fall of the 50% must be deployed on the board rule? I might be missing something, not got my book on me so could easily be misremembering.


yes it would. As the stratagem clearly states that you set the unit up "in concealment instead of placing it on the battlefield" so max 50% of your units can get the benefit.


Hmm that's a good point. That's not too bad to change tho. Just make sure that if I take a good sized list, make sure I have most of my units on the back field. Since I usually take a few daemon princes, bloat drones, and other heavy units, this could still work I think.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The units are deployed during the first battle round before the first turn.

A battle round is made up of bother players turns, so each ayer has a turn during each battle round.

Strict RAW there is nothing that gives restrictions on units placed mid game but before a turn.

I expect the FAQ will rule that the units have normal reinforcement restrictions when it's their turn on the battle round they were placed. It's kind of like world eater plague Marines, currently they are legal by a strict reading of the RAW, in a week they likely won't be.
   
Made in us
Giggling Nurgling





blaktoof wrote:
The units are deployed during the first battle round before the first turn.

A battle round is made up of bother players turns, so each ayer has a turn during each battle round.

Strict RAW there is nothing that gives restrictions on units placed mid game but before a turn.

I expect the FAQ will rule that the units have normal reinforcement restrictions when it's their turn on the battle round they were placed. It's kind of like world eater plague Marines, currently they are legal by a strict reading of the RAW, in a week they likely won't be.


Could you explain this a bit more? You're saying that RAW it says that you could technically have over 50% of the army being deployed by this stratagem because technically they aren't in reserves?
It makes sense to me, but where does it say in the BRB? Asking in case I decide to go this route lol
   
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Sneaky Sniper Drone




Clemson SC

Depends on the wording of the strategem somewhat, but at least half your units must be on the table at the start of the battle. Assuming this is analogous to Strike From The Shadows, then yes assuming you had the CP to do so, at least half your entire force could/would set up this way while the other half is in reserves.

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Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mekrot wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
The units are deployed during the first battle round before the first turn.

A battle round is made up of bother players turns, so each ayer has a turn during each battle round.

Strict RAW there is nothing that gives restrictions on units placed mid game but before a turn.

I expect the FAQ will rule that the units have normal reinforcement restrictions when it's their turn on the battle round they were placed. It's kind of like world eater plague Marines, currently they are legal by a strict reading of the RAW, in a week they likely won't be.


Could you explain this a bit more? You're saying that RAW it says that you could technically have over 50% of the army being deployed by this stratagem because technically they aren't in reserves?
It makes sense to me, but where does it say in the BRB? Asking in case I decide to go this route lol



I didn't say anything like that at all.

The units are doing something instead of being placed on the battlefield during deployment, according to the first sentence of tatical reserves that makes them reinforcements.

They then get placed during the game, at the beginning of the first battle round but before any player starts their turn.

The RAW for reinforcements says units placed from reinforcements during their turn cannot move or advance normally. As they are placed during the battle round but before their turn is the grey area the op question is about.

Strictly by the RAW they have no restriction on moving the same battle round you place them as they are not placed during the player turn. However basing an army on that is living on the same borrowed time Emperor's children berzerkerz are living on. They will FAQ it so they cannot move the battle round they are placed very likely.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Hi all!

I was asking myself when exactly units using this stratagem are placed. Is it before or after the roll for first turn?

Having to place them before you see if you are going first might balance things out a bit as you can't place em as aggressively...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/19 15:48:54


 
   
Made in us
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






So this is actually up to house rules because the way the stratagem works is you are revealed at the start of the first battoe round, and the BrB says "half if your forces must be on the battlefield, ". However, this being the edition of ambiguity, it does not state when half your army needs to be on the battle field. Is it before the start of the first battle round? Because if so then the alpha legion strat allows them because does it say before the start of the first battle round or at the start of the first battle round?

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




I guess it boils down to the question: When does the roll for the first turn happen? Before or after you have to place the units?
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





The Tactical Reserves rule with regards to this stratagem is pretty clear. It says you must have at least 50% of the units in your army set up on the battlefield DURING DEPLOYMENT. Whatever ambiguity there might be over the timing of this strat, it is unarguable that it means units are set up AFTER deployment. Therefore they count against the maximum number of units that can be set up in reserve.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




I think that's pretty clear... But when do you roll for first turn? After they have been set up or before you have to set them up?
   
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




It is after the roll to seize.
   
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Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




citation please or rule reference.
   
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Never Forget Isstvan!






The rule is pretty clear, 50% of your units MUST be deployed on the board, before the game begins.

If you use a stratagem to set them up in a special way that is not on the board then they go against your 50% allotment.

Forward operatives are not on the board WHEN you set them up so they do count againgst you.

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Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Sorry, I meant as to whether you place your unit before or after the roll for who goes first.
   
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Sorry, I meant as to whether you place your unit before or after the roll for who goes first.


After - after the start of the game but before the first battle round begins. You can only begin a battle round if you know who's going first, ergo you deploy after first turn player has been decided.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




It could be that the 1st thing to do in the first battle round is to see who goes first for the game. RAI you're probably right but RAW there's no way to tell. GW really does need to define "begining" and "end" of rounds in the rules. To avoid this and other timing questions.
   
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
It could be that the 1st thing to do in the first battle round is to see who goes first for the game. RAI you're probably right but RAW there's no way to tell. GW really does need to define "begining" and "end" of rounds in the rules. To avoid this and other timing questions.


RAwhatever you wanna call it, this is how it should be played. The Mission instructions tell you/decide who goes first, then you begin the first Battle Round.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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Smokin' Skorcha Driver




London UK

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
It could be that the 1st thing to do in the first battle round is to see who goes first for the game. RAI you're probably right but RAW there's no way to tell. GW really does need to define "begining" and "end" of rounds in the rules. To avoid this and other timing questions.


RAwhatever you wanna call it, this is how it should be played. The Mission instructions tell you/decide who goes first, then you begin the first Battle Round.


I don't see any RAW vs RAI argument here, Johnnyhell has it completely right. The beginning of the core rules pamphlet even spells out exactly what a battleround is. This stratagem is worded the same as the Raven Guard one, Strike from the shadows. Rolling for first turn/seize is not part of a battleround

fyi the relevant wording of the strat is

At the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins...
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




OK, I think that makes sense... You prepare for the first round by setting up and such and also roll to see who goes first. Then you start the first battle round and place the unit this Strat was used for...
   
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Smokin' Skorcha Driver




London UK

It is a really powerful strat. For example If you get first turn then you can push your cultist screen out really wide and position a character in the midst to make the screens a must to be dealth with taking fire away from juicier targets then you tide the cultist back mid game. If you don't get first turn its like repositioning your screens for maximum benefit.
   
 
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