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https://soundcloud.com/stuart-mack-529060178/g52-e18-forgeworld-open-day-emperors-path#t=1:40:52

It's at about 1:40:50

While not unexpected, it still makes me a little sad. Theyve been due a catchup for ages though. Get some Primarchs done for legions with rules already. Some units and characters too. One of those things. Ill just have to shelve my plans for Atramentar.

Christmas 2018??? And with delays and everything else that might happen between now and then, more likely Spring 2019? This makes me very, very sad. I wanted to start a Blood Angels Legion, but guess I'll be shelving that idea for a couple years.

I'm excited for the return of BFG and looking forward to Titanicus... but again, 2018?!?! I understand the lead writer passed away in early 2017, but WTF have they been doing?!?! The Imperial Armor books for 8th are a disaster of epic proportions. Book VII Inferno has to be the worst book in the HH series to date. The quality of Forge World books has really, really gone downhill since Book VI. At least the models are still excellent. If its going to take them a year and a half to release book VIII, it better be the best book in the entire series. This news is just disappointing.

I understand Forge World is a small, subset, red headed step child that GW wishes would just go away but can't because of the popularity and money it generates. You would think that in such a circumstance GW would help them out, throw them a bone, something to keep the momentum going. Heck, absorb the studio back into the main office as rumors have been talking about for the last few years. Anything to improve their quality and productivity.

What the heck are we supposed to do until 2019 without new content for 30K?

 Tamwulf wrote:
Christmas 2018??? And with delays and everything else that might happen between now and then, more likely Spring 2019? This makes me very, very sad. I wanted to start a Blood Angels Legion, but guess I'll be shelving that idea for a couple years.

I'm excited for the return of BFG and looking forward to Titanicus... but again, 2018?!?! I understand the lead writer passed away in early 2017, but WTF have they been doing?!?! The Imperial Armor books for 8th are a disaster of epic proportions. Book VII Inferno has to be the worst book in the HH series to date. The quality of Forge World books has really, really gone downhill since Book VI. At least the models are still excellent. If its going to take them a year and a half to release book VIII, it better be the best book in the entire series. This news is just disappointing.

I understand Forge World is a small, subset, red headed step child that GW wishes would just go away but can't because of the popularity and money it generates. You would think that in such a circumstance GW would help them out, throw them a bone, something to keep the momentum going. Heck, absorb the studio back into the main office as rumors have been talking about for the last few years. Anything to improve their quality and productivity.

What the heck are we supposed to do until 2019 without new content for 30K?

I think you need to stop right before your 'but'. They lost the brains and creative spark of the project at a time when the small FW team is being asked to deliver on multiple other big projects. There's no way to overemphasize this point. Alan Bligh lived and breathed HH. BL authors went to him as a resource. There's a reason why the early books say "by Alan Bligh" inside in big letters.

I don't mean to sound dire, but I think it's reasonable to believe that 30K is in a very precarious spot right now without its creator and champion. FW is sticking with 8th because they don't have the staff to manage an update right now, but not moving to 8th likely means fewer players getting into 30K as 8th edition grows and breathes while 7th stagnates. This is kind of a LOSE-LOSE situation IMO. We're still missing needed FAQ and errata from earlier black books, and now they're in charge of the core rules also? Yikes?

I agree that now might be the time for the GW studio to absorb 30K. However, I'm not sure if GW really cares about 30K so long as FW is selling miniatures, and they've made it easier than ever for 40K players to use 30K minis in their games through the indices.

Anyway, regarding Angelus, you are correct. One needs to add 3-6 months to most FW estimates, so 2019 is a likely scenario. And if we're talking about 1.5-2 years between books...how sustainable is HH, and should anyone really expect a book 9 to happen? Especially if Titanicus, Blood Bowl, Necromunda, etc are all humming along?

 gorgon wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Christmas 2018??? And with delays and everything else that might happen between now and then, more likely Spring 2019? This makes me very, very sad. I wanted to start a Blood Angels Legion, but guess I'll be shelving that idea for a couple years.

I'm excited for the return of BFG and looking forward to Titanicus... but again, 2018?!?! I understand the lead writer passed away in early 2017, but WTF have they been doing?!?! The Imperial Armor books for 8th are a disaster of epic proportions. Book VII Inferno has to be the worst book in the HH series to date. The quality of Forge World books has really, really gone downhill since Book VI. At least the models are still excellent. If its going to take them a year and a half to release book VIII, it better be the best book in the entire series. This news is just disappointing.

I understand Forge World is a small, subset, red headed step child that GW wishes would just go away but can't because of the popularity and money it generates. You would think that in such a circumstance GW would help them out, throw them a bone, something to keep the momentum going. Heck, absorb the studio back into the main office as rumors have been talking about for the last few years. Anything to improve their quality and productivity.

What the heck are we supposed to do until 2019 without new content for 30K?

I think you need to stop right before your 'but'. They lost the brains and creative spark of the project at a time when the small FW team is being asked to deliver on multiple other big projects. There's no way to overemphasize this point. Alan Bligh lived and breathed HH. BL authors went to him as a resource. There's a reason why the early books say "by Alan Bligh" inside in big letters.

I don't mean to sound dire, but I think it's reasonable to believe that 30K is in a very precarious spot right now without its creator and champion. FW is sticking with 8th because they don't have the staff to manage an update right now, but not moving to 8th likely means fewer players getting into 30K as 8th edition grows and breathes while 7th stagnates. This is kind of a LOSE-LOSE situation IMO. We're still missing needed FAQ and errata from earlier black books, and now they're in charge of the core rules also? Yikes?

I agree that now might be the time for the GW studio to absorb 30K. However, I'm not sure if GW really cares about 30K so long as FW is selling miniatures, and they've made it easier than ever for 40K players to use 30K minis in their games through the indices.

Anyway, regarding Angelus, you are correct. One needs to add 3-6 months to most FW estimates, so 2019 is a likely scenario. And if we're talking about 1.5-2 years between books...how sustainable is HH, and should anyone really expect a book 9 to happen? Especially if Titanicus, Blood Bowl, Necromunda, etc are all humming along?

Between the loss of Alan Bligh, FW rolling out all the new Speacialist Games AND not moving HH to 8th...I am worried about HH. I love 30k, it is my favorite setting but once 8th dropped and news of HH sticking with 7th dropped 30k games started to dry up almost over night. Now I know in some areas that is not the case but in my local area store in Mass a once budding 30k community dried up over night. Now it is myself, and two other folks.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
Between the loss of Alan Bligh, FW rolling out all the new Speacialist Games AND not moving HH to 8th...I am worried about HH. I love 30k, it is my favorite setting but once 8th dropped and news of HH sticking with 7th dropped 30k games started to dry up almost over night. Now I know in some areas that is not the case but in my local area store in Mass a once budding 30k community dried up over night. Now it is myself, and two other folks.

I know that's true for myself. I was building a Fists Legion, grabbing models and bits a little at a time, when they announced they were not moving to 8e. I'm the only 30K player that I know of in my area, aside from perhaps one other person, and I was relying heavily on playing with 40K players to get any use out of the models. So now I'm building a 30K force using 40K rules, as that's infinitely easier than convincing the small group slowly building interest I know to drop the widely played and accessible version for the smaller, more isolated and more expensive version. I still get the cool 30K aesthetic that really drew me in while actually getting to play games.

I haven't played a single 30k game since the news about FW sticking with 7th came out and sadly a lot of the models/units I use don't translate out well to 40k so I am very worried about this

Xmas 2018, yikes that's not a good sign at all. I worry with all the specialist games stuff their doing they might just be stretched too thin.

Please FW don't let this series fester and die.

Mortarion's Herald wrote:

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
Between the loss of Alan Bligh, FW rolling out all the new Speacialist Games AND not moving HH to 8th...I am worried about HH. I love 30k, it is my favorite setting but once 8th dropped and news of HH sticking with 7th dropped 30k games started to dry up almost over night. Now I know in some areas that is not the case but in my local area store in Mass a once budding 30k community dried up over night. Now it is myself, and two other folks.

I know that's true for myself. I was building a Fists Legion, grabbing models and bits a little at a time, when they announced they were not moving to 8e. I'm the only 30K player that I know of in my area, aside from perhaps one other person, and I was relying heavily on playing with 40K players to get any use out of the models. So now I'm building a 30K force using 40K rules, as that's infinitely easier than convincing the small group slowly building interest I know to drop the widely played and accessible version for the smaller, more isolated and more expensive version. I still get the cool 30K aesthetic that really drew me in while actually getting to play games.

My level of enthusiasm has dropped off. Fortunately, I always planned to be able to use my WE for 40K in a pinch, and now more units are viable with the FW index.

What I worry about is people like us still buying and collecting and making GW and FW think everything is just fine in 30K-land. Some communities have good solid roots and will stick around, but others were in their infancy and might struggle now. And a long delay between books doesn't help keep the interest level up.

 gorgon wrote:

Mortarion's Herald wrote:

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
Between the loss of Alan Bligh, FW rolling out all the new Speacialist Games AND not moving HH to 8th...I am worried about HH. I love 30k, it is my favorite setting but once 8th dropped and news of HH sticking with 7th dropped 30k games started to dry up almost over night. Now I know in some areas that is not the case but in my local area store in Mass a once budding 30k community dried up over night. Now it is myself, and two other folks.

I know that's true for myself. I was building a Fists Legion, grabbing models and bits a little at a time, when they announced they were not moving to 8e. I'm the only 30K player that I know of in my area, aside from perhaps one other person, and I was relying heavily on playing with 40K players to get any use out of the models. So now I'm building a 30K force using 40K rules, as that's infinitely easier than convincing the small group slowly building interest I know to drop the widely played and accessible version for the smaller, more isolated and more expensive version. I still get the cool 30K aesthetic that really drew me in while actually getting to play games.

My level of enthusiasm has dropped off. Fortunately, I always planned to be able to use my WE for 40K in a pinch, and now more units are viable with the FW index.

What I worry about is people like us still buying and collecting and making GW and FW think everything is just fine in 30K-land. Some communities have good solid roots and will stick around, but others were in their infancy and might struggle now. And a long delay between books doesn't help keep the interest level up.

I left a fantastic 30k community over a dozen strong when I moved from Chicago to the east Coast. I feel that pain. And having TWo 30k armies is rough. But that said I can use my Luna Wolves as both loyalists and Chaos Marines, and my Thousand sons can work as well...Thousand Sons! Or Grey Knights if I want to represent loyalist ones

Well if FW goes back to making models that aren't Marines when it comes to 40k, I sure as hell not gonna shed a tear.

Is this the Dead Game General?

Well, I hope the delay is to get everything switched over to 8th. Sticking with that burning heap known as 7th isn't doing the game good. And Forgeworld are hiring two writers as they've realised after the sad loss of Alan that one isn't enough.

There's a thread in the 30k subforum which in a roundabout way says "the 'feel' of 40k legions don't match up to the 'feel' of the 30k legions" - and this is the crux of the issue; people see that FW produced better quality rules and fluff when both systems were using the same edition and that caused the rapid expansion of the HH playerbase because people could 'jump ship' anytime they fancied.

And now they can't.

I'm a "make your bed and lie in it" person so i have no sympathy for you lot because i had this before with the switch to 7th edition and i stuck with 6th (with proper terrain rules and no psychic phase)

Every time a new edition comes out the player base reacts the same - ~50% 'yes men' ~25% 'meh' and ~25% 'never!' - because the player base for 40k tends to the younger side of the age range you have overt willingness to accept change in the majority, but as us who are older now know, change isn't always good.

This makes the player base very accepting of new rubbish, refusal to recognise it as rubbish, and only acknowledge that it was rubbish retrospectively when looking back with hindsight.

But it also makes the player base too willing to regard anything which went before it as rubbish - because 'newer'=='better', right?


Oh, and 7th is better than 8th - just with formations and GW codecies removed - or in other words; THE HH.

 SirDonlad wrote:
There's a thread in the 30k subforum which in a roundabout way says "the 'feel' of 40k legions don't match up to the 'feel' of the 30k legions" - and this is the crux of the issue; people see that FW produced better quality rules and fluff when both systems were using the same edition and that caused the rapid expansion of the HH playerbase because people could 'jump ship' anytime they fancied.

And now they can't.

I'm a "make your bed and lie in it" person so i have no sympathy for you lot because i had this before with the switch to 7th edition and i stuck with 6th (with proper terrain rules and no psychic phase)

Every time a new edition comes out the player base reacts the same - ~50% 'yes men' ~25% 'meh' and ~25% 'never!' - because the player base for 40k tends to the younger side of the age range you have overt willingness to accept change in the majority, but as us who are older now know, change isn't always good.

This makes the player base very accepting of new rubbish, refusal to recognise it as rubbish, and only acknowledge that it was rubbish retrospectively when looking back with hindsight.

But it also makes the player base too willing to regard anything which went before it as rubbish - because 'newer'=='better', right?


Oh, and 7th is better than 8th - just with formations and GW codecies removed - or in other words; THE HH.

Glad there is someone who isnt all doom and gloom.

30k is still going strong for my local scene, arguably more-so. 8th doesnt appear to have made a major dent, and once the initial excitement wore off everyone got back to 30k.

Its easy to be a bit down on 30k with virtually no releases or previews at the FW Open Day, and a delay on the books due to Alan's sad passing. But to decry the game as dead because it didnt go to 8th is a bit strong.

If you are completely incapable of understanding the differences in the change from 6th to 7th editions and 7th to 8th, then there is very little to discuss.

 SirDonlad wrote:
There's a thread in the 30k subforum which in a roundabout way says "the 'feel' of 40k legions don't match up to the 'feel' of the 30k legions" - and this is the crux of the issue; people see that FW produced better quality rules and fluff when both systems were using the same edition and that caused the rapid expansion of the HH playerbase because people could 'jump ship' anytime they fancied.

And now they can't.

I'm a "make your bed and lie in it" person so i have no sympathy for you lot because i had this before with the switch to 7th edition and i stuck with 6th (with proper terrain rules and no psychic phase)

Every time a new edition comes out the player base reacts the same - ~50% 'yes men' ~25% 'meh' and ~25% 'never!' - because the player base for 40k tends to the younger side of the age range you have overt willingness to accept change in the majority, but as us who are older now know, change isn't always good.

This makes the player base very accepting of new rubbish, refusal to recognise it as rubbish, and only acknowledge that it was rubbish retrospectively when looking back with hindsight.

But it also makes the player base too willing to regard anything which went before it as rubbish - because 'newer'=='better', right?


Oh, and 7th is better than 8th - just with formations and GW codecies removed - or in other words; THE HH.

Seriously though, I don't know what you're going on about. If you like playing your SirDonladHammer with whatever edition it is you're playing, then that's your business and have fun with it. I don't see much reason to point and laugh at people lamenting their shrinking gaming community.
If you want to gakpost, I'm sure you can find someplace else to do it.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
If you are completely incapable of understanding the differences in the change from 6th to 7th editions and 7th to 8th, then there is very little to discuss.

I'm always up for a discussion and you really have to concede that it's not practical to list every difference between editions when making a quick comparison - i don't want to type all that up, and people are going to ignore that section because the amount of differences and the exact specifics of them aren't relevant to the context of what i was saying.

You're trying to dismiss my argument by dismissing me. swing-and-a-miss.



Good one gorgon, i like a meme.
But again, you're being dismissive of my perspective to dismiss my argument, but i think that when pushed in private you'll take the same position as me - change isn't necessarily a good thing, but stagnation is slow death.

I don't think there a great understanding or caring here about what your argument is, based on how you're presenting it.

what are you trying to say?

"You cant have an opinion unless it agrees with mine"?

Reading comprehension seems to be an issue here, so I'll be more blunt.

People will be more likely to engage with you when you're not calling those who disagree with you "yes men" who are "accepting of rubbish", inserting violin GIFs, etc.

It's toy soldiers. You can play your way and others can play their way. There's no reason to gloat over others' gaming misfortune or act so childishly.

 SirDonlad wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
If you are completely incapable of understanding the differences in the change from 6th to 7th editions and 7th to 8th, then there is very little to discuss.

I'm always up for a discussion and you really have to concede that it's not practical to list every difference between editions when making a quick comparison - i don't want to type all that up, and people are going to ignore that section because the amount of differences and the exact specifics of them aren't relevant to the context of what i was saying.

You're trying to dismiss my argument by dismissing me. swing-and-a-miss.

.

No, the "swing and a miss" is all you, for missing my point entirely. Sixth to seventh is no different than fifth to sixth or any other edition change from between third to seventh. Codexes were not invalidated by those edition changes as they were all still the same game. Eighth is an all new game, just like third was, invalidating all rules that came before it That is the difference you seem incapable of understanding.

 gorgon wrote:
Reading comprehension seems to be an issue here, so I'll be more blunt.

People will be more likely to engage with you when you're not calling those who disagree with you "yes men" who are "accepting of rubbish", inserting violin GIFs, etc.

It's toy soldiers. You can play your way and others can play their way. There's no reason to gloat over others' gaming misfortune or act so childishly.

Nothing wrong with the reading comprehension here dude, i've seen 'edition change angst' 7 times so far, and i'm tired of the hyperbole - you don't have 'gaming misfortune' just frustration that you're going to have to remember how to play two games now. personally, i'm only going to bother with the dedicated upcoming HH ruleset despite my preference for 6th edition.

30k isn't going to 'go away', 'die' or anything like that - we love the setting and thats not going to change.
The reason i'm the first to say it in this thread is because most of the time people can't be bothered to argue against an echochamber, but my perspective stands; newer=/=better.

The majority of people are so jaded by formations and broken codecies that they just attribute the failing to the game instead, despite the fact that the core mechanics were actually pretty good; not perfect by any stretch, but good enough for Alan Bligh to create something beautiful from.

 SirDonlad wrote:
30k isn't going to 'go away', 'die' or anything like that - we love the setting and thats not going to change.
The reason i'm the first to say it in this thread is because most of the time people can't be bothered to argue against an echochamber, but my perspective stands; newer=/=better.

The majority of people are so jaded by formations and broken codecies that they just attribute the failing to the game instead, despite the fact that the core mechanics were actually pretty good; not perfect by any stretch, but good enough for Alan Bligh to create something beautiful from.

so much this, in fact everything you have said here in this thread is correct. we saw the same happen with age of sigmar, a lot of the new players were relatively accepting while the vast majority of long time players (myself included) absolutely hated it and what happens it it creates an echo chamber within GW's community feedback, all the old players are driven off leaving only the new players resulting in all the feedback being good, creating an illusion to GW that the game is liked. WHFB's core mechanics were fine but the lack of support led to complaints within the fanbase about the core rules themselves because older army books were never updated leaving newer armies at an advantage.

the problem lies in the company listening to the more vocal parts of the community for better or worse. parallels can be drawn to blizzard and overwatch for this, with the recent nerfs to the character roadhog who previously was a strong pick, this deemed the community to complain that he was op leading to a nerf resulting in him having the lowest win rate of all the characters in the game.
TLDR: companies shouldn't always listen to the vocal whiny parts of the community who have no experience in game design.

He "only" removed the codices and any non-marine element from the game to start HH. That's more than just the broken that's effectively 75% of the game that was gone. All armies in th HH have the same basic toughness and playstyle ( sure each legion is different but nowhere near the difference between them as marine/non-marine in 40k). Just read through your 40K 6th rulebook and realise how many rules from it don't factor into HH. It's a ton of them.

Don't forget a few weeks setback in production ,depending on the way you schedule, can snowball to months if they didn't move the entire production schedule (IA books, specialist game models, AoS ,etc).
the delays caused by Alan Bligh passing might only become apparent now because GW/FW schedules very far ahead ( some release dates are set a year in advance).

Formations being badly implemented (namely widely varying degree of power).

People being jaded is def an issue but the stack upon stack of rules that is 6th/7th/HH was also an issue (and the biggest one with the core rule set).



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also no one is going on an internet forum and coming away with a good impression of current GW it was always better in the mythical past (tough no one can name a time period strangely enough).

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
If you are completely incapable of understanding the differences in the change from 6th to 7th editions and 7th to 8th, then there is very little to discuss.

I'm always up for a discussion and you really have to concede that it's not practical to list every difference between editions when making a quick comparison - i don't want to type all that up, and people are going to ignore that section because the amount of differences and the exact specifics of them aren't relevant to the context of what i was saying.

You're trying to dismiss my argument by dismissing me. swing-and-a-miss.

.

No, the "swing and a miss" is all you, for missing my point entirely. Sixth to seventh is no different than fifth to sixth or any other edition change from between third to seventh. Codexes were not invalidated by those edition changes as they were all still the same game. Eighth is an all new game, just like third was, invalidating all rules that came before it That is the difference you seem incapable of understanding.

Your first post was an attempt to insult me because i didn't include a comprehensive list of all the changes between 6th and 7th edition in my very short list of things i didn't like about 7th and that i also didn't include a list of all changes between 7th and 8th edition.

If you are completely incapable of understanding the differences in the change from 6th to 7th editions and 7th to 8th, then there is very little to discuss.

What you described in your second post (top) as 'your point' is nowhere to be found. some decorum, please, i usually agree with what you post.

So to address your point - your point is that your 40k codecies carried over between the editions of 40k before, and you're angry because FW havent adapted their specialist game army lists to the new edition when it was released.

Thats not fair on forgeworld - the HH was, is, and will remain a seperate game; they went to great lengths to state this in designers notes, that the army lists in the HH were not intended to be used in conjunction with 40k codecies but you could fudge it if you wanted to.

If you're dead set on playing 40k with fancy forgeworld resin you can still use the legion marine models with the space marine codex and the FW index book, if you play mechanicum you wait till fires of cyraxus comes out, and if you're set on playing in/around M31 you still have all the books you need.

So why the general levels of salt toward the upcoming HH ruleset? we know they're going over 7th and fixing it, so whats the problem?

I thought a lot of people were worried that HH was going to change to 8th invalidating our very expensive black books I'm happy it's staying as it is. I hope they take their time and get the right people to write the future books.
There are plenty of character models for them to do in the mean time as well as a few legion specific units that need models. Yes if your waiting to do Dark Angels, Blood Angels and White Scars it's a bummer and I feel for you but there are plenty of units that you can buy and paint while waiting for your specific units, characters and primach.
I like 8th edition because it feels like it's a more level playing field but the Horus Heresy never really had that problem that 7th had when playing 40k.

 SirDonlad wrote:

Your first post was an attempt to insult me because i didn't include a comprehensive list of all the changes between 6th and 7th edition in my very short list of things i didn't like about 7th and that i also didn't include a list of all changes between 7th and 8th edition.

If you are completely incapable of understanding the differences in the change from 6th to 7th editions and 7th to 8th, then there is very little to discuss.

What you described in your second post (top) as 'your point' is nowhere to be found. some decorum, please, i usually agree with what you post.

You're still swinging, and you're still missing.
I said "differences in the change" not "difference in the changes". The point was, in fact, there, as subtle as it may be. You just wanted to continue your rant which basically amounts to "got mine, don't care". And that attitude gets us nowhere. It does not build communities, but divides them. Enjoy the game you actually get to play, not all of us are as blessed as you, so telling us to basically feth off, as you have done, is hurtful, antagonistic, and downright offensive, but is exactly what I will do at this point in the discussion.

Kasper Hawser wrote:
I thought a lot of people were worried that HH was going to change to 8th invalidating our very expensive black books I'm happy it's staying as it is. I hope they take their time and get the right people to write the future books.
There are plenty of character models for them to do in the mean time as well as a few legion specific units that need models. Yes if your waiting to do Dark Angels, Blood Angels and White Scars it's a bummer and I feel for you but there are plenty of units that you can buy and paint while waiting for your specific units, characters and primach.
I like 8th edition because it feels like it's a more level playing field but the Horus Heresy never really had that problem that 7th had when playing 40k.

You're absolutely right. When people bitch about 7th edition HH, they bitch about quad mortars. They don't bitch about how unbalanced an entire army is, which was what one of the large problems with 40k 7th edition.

Not even early 2018, LATE 2018 which means more then a year.
How longcan a book like that take to make? especially with 2 people?
And because of this, books/models for 40k/AOS will never be released