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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Per the title ...

Frostgrave

A Song of Blades & Heroes

Open Combat

Other suggestions for inspiring rulesets?

... on an unrelated personal note, this is the 900th thread I have started on Dakka Dakka ... -_-;

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/15 19:34:18


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Grats on the 900th thread.

Do you think ESO combat should be small scale (like bandits fighting) or huge scale (like the Akaviri Invasion battles) or somewhere in between?

I think that'd affect what ruleset we pick.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Well, you can probably guess based on the rulesets that immediately came to my mind that I am thinking ultra low count skirmish game.

You play ESO but all my Elder Scrolls experience comes from Morrowind forward. So when I think Elder Scrolls, I think of a adventuring and small battles, involving about ten people/monsters at most.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Manchu wrote:
Well, you can probably guess based on the rulesets that immediately came to my mind that I am thinking ultra low count skirmish game.

You play ESO but all my Elder Scrolls experience comes from Morrowind forward. So when I think Elder Scrolls, I think of a adventuring and small battles, involving about ten people/monsters at most.


Well I started in TES3 also, and it actually really irritated me in, say, TES4 when you'd've gotten all the cities of Cyrodiil to send armies to the final battle (at Bruma, IIRC, not in the Imperial City) and you got like 12 dudes to help you. Or in Skyrim when the Imperials are fighting this supposedly massive civil war and some of the bandit dungeons outnumber the Imperial and Stormcloak bases like 2 or 3 to 1.

The small-scale stuff could absolutely be fun though, I completely agree. But I think it is almost 'too' close to the games; at a larger scale, an Elder Scrolls large-scale wargame could give a completely different point of view on the universe than the RPGs, while a small-scale skirmish is kind of trying to replicate the RPGs on the tabletop, in a way. Neither approach is bad, but I think it's a discussion we've got to have!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/15 19:46:00


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

If I was designing a licensed Elder Scrolls game for Modiphius or a similar company, something where I would have to demonstrate to Bethesda that I was really taking inspiration from their design, I would heavily emphasize exploration mechanics. Along those lines, maybe games like This Is Not A Test are the rights ones to look into, although TNT obviously covers a different genre.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Manchu wrote:
If I was designing a licensed Elder Scrolls game for Modiphius or a similar company, something where I would have to demonstrate to Bethesda that I was really taking inspiration from their design, I would heavily emphasize exploration mechanics. Along those lines, maybe games like This Is Not A Test are the rights ones to look into, although TNT obviously covers a different genre.


I have never played This Is Not A Test, but one thing you could do is perhaps have the 2 'teams' be groups of adventurers, looking throughout a dungeon for some artefact. You could include 'employer cards' or 'quest cards' that explain what you're looking for and why. So, for example, if you're hired by Umbacano to find some artefact, perhaps there is a group from the Mage's Guild after the same artefact. You could even have different Rules of Engagement depending on the cards, e.g. the Mage's Guild can't hurt people but can freeze/banish/whatever them, while Umbacano has no such qualms.

I'm way overthinking this. I suppose an "I agree!" should suffice.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Nah, seems like you are thinking along the right lines there.

So, assuming this is a low fig count game, what is the basic framework/objective of a gameplay session?

In Frostgrave, for example, a Wizard and her Apprentice lead a team of mercs into the icy ruins of Felsted to recover treasures. Each session is one of these expeditions.

For a Elder Scrolls game, you would want a little more variety than just dungeon delving alone, but yeah I think the general idea here is that each player's team is out adventuring in the world working on a quest. That quest could come from one of the Guilds. It could come from a major setting faction, such as the Stormcloaks.

So when you go to work out a scenario to play, it could be fun if each player rolled up which faction they are working for. And then they roll on a table for that faction about what kind of quest it is. And then you compare the quests to see how the scenario objectives overlap.

For example, the Mages Guild wants a certain artifact located in an ancient tomb. But the Stormcloaks also want it, because it is a relic of an long lost Nord hero. That is along the same lines as your conclusion with just a little more fleshed out on the mechanics of "getting there."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/15 20:04:37


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Manchu wrote:
Nah, seems like you are thinking along the right lines there.

So, assuming this is a low fig count game, what is the basic framework/objective of a gameplay session?

In Frostgrave, for example, a Wizard and her Apprentice lead a team of mercs into the icy ruins of Felsted to recover treasures. Each session is one of these expeditions.

For a Elder Scrolls game, you would want a little more variety than just dungeon delving alone, but yeah I think the general idea here is that each player's team is out adventuring in the world working on a quest. That quest could come from one of the Guilds. It could come from a major setting faction, such as the Stormcloaks.

So when you go to work out a scenario to play, it could be fun if each player rolled up which faction they are working for. And then they roll on a table for that faction about what kind of quest it is. And then you compare the quests to see how the scenario objectives overlap.

For example, the Mages Guild wants a certain artifact located in an ancient tomb. But the Stormcloaks also want it, because it is a relic of an long lost Nord hero. That is along the same lines as your conclusion with just a little more fleshed out on the mechanics of "getting there."


Well, that's a good question. I have no idea what army composition could look like. It'd also be neat to have like a 'bad guys table' and a 'good guys table' for organizations to roll on, so the Good Guys would include say Imperials, Stormcloaks, Mage's Guild (though they could of course fight eachother if you rolled on the Good Guys table with both armies), and then the Bad Guys would be like 'Vampires / Daedric Cults / Slavers". Which models you chose for your army could affect who your employer is (like so if your leader is a Vampire you'd remove 'Daedric Cults' and double the chances of being employed by other vampires).
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

What if, you gain some kind of rep points for each faction for which you successfully complete quests?

So imagine a quest table for each faction with like 12 entries. You roll a D6 and add your rep score to obtain a a quest from that faction. Quests with lower numbers on the table have lower rewards but are easier to accomplish. Quests with higher numbers would be harder but give better rewards.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Manchu wrote:
What if, you gain some kind of rep points for each faction for which you successfully complete quests?

So imagine a quest table for each faction with like 12 entries. You roll a D6 and add your rep score to obtain a a quest from that faction. Quests with lower numbers on the table have lower rewards but are easier to accomplish. Quests with higher numbers would be harder but give better rewards.


That's good! It lends itself to campaign/league play, and would be useless in a PUG setting, but I think if we're going with Elder Scrolls, encouraging campaign play is the best anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For PUGs you could have your own set of rules. I'd like to stick with the same theme of an RPG though, somehow, so we can't just let people pick their own objectives (one might say "I want the artefact" and the other says "I want to kill 20 zombies" and they're not enemies anymore).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/15 20:24:42


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

I think you can always do a purely PUG session with a level 1 warband, like with Frostgrave or Shadow Wars.

But an ES game without campaign mechanics just can't be an ES game.

   
Made in us
Widowmaker




Somewhere in the Ginnungagap

An adventure board game with legacy mechanics.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Using a legacy mechanic would make this have more concrete in-game results than the video games on which it's based.

   
Made in us
Widowmaker




Somewhere in the Ginnungagap

 Manchu wrote:
Using a legacy mechanic would make this have more concrete in-game results than the video games on which it's based.


Depends on what you are using them for. I was thinking only in terms of using them to uncover new locations etc. Not for story purposes.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Manchu wrote:
I think you can always do a purely PUG session with a level 1 warband, like with Frostgrave or Shadow Wars.

But an ES game without campaign mechanics just can't be an ES game.


True. Also is it bad that I don't know what a legacy mechanic is?
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Nah, it is a board game thing.

It's where the components of the game, like the cards or the board, are irreversibly altered as a matter of the game play. So like, as part of the game itself you will tear up one of the cards because the options on that card are no longer available.

   
Made in us
Widowmaker




Somewhere in the Ginnungagap

 Manchu wrote:
Nah, it is a board game thing.

It's where the components of the game, like the cards or the board, are irreversibly altered as a matter of the game play. So like, as part of the game itself you will tear up one of the cards because the options on that card are no longer available.


See I was thinking of a board that gets areas revealed/stickered as you find stuff. Also perhaps quest that unlock as you interact with new locations.
   
Made in de
Primus





Palmerston North

Frostgrave feels too random for Elder Scrolls, and Song is too streamlined.

I always thought Rackham's Confrontation would make a nice base for an Eldar Scrolls game.
   
Made in us
Ghulam Doctor




Though I'm not terribly fond of the site 1D4chan has an excellent homebrew rule system (similar to of infinity was a fantasy game) that's pretty similar to what you're working on with Scrollhammer 2e. Might be a good place to look for ideas. https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Scrollhammer_2nd_Edition
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Quests sound like Malifaux schemes, except that you'd pick one to work from a randomly-generated list / series of choices, rather than having one randomly assigned to you.

Layer that atop Frostgrave, and you're probably almost there.

   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




i'll be honest, I really dislike Skirmish games, they feel kind of lame to me, compared to controlling full-on armies of warriors, the only 'skirmish' game I ever got into was Space Hulk, and that's really it's own unique thing.

But regarding the actual wargame itself, honestly I think small 1,000pts games of Warmaster with adjusted unit stats, I have the Imperial Legion and Stormcloaks pretty much sorted. The Stormcloaks have lower command values and are not permitted to form brigades of more than three units, due to their lack of emphasis on 'rank-and-file' compared to the Imperials, Ulfric Stormcloak having a CV of 8, compared to Tannius' 9, and respective commanders having 7 and 8 for each faction. The Stormcloaks have little in the way of cavalry, mostly relying on a combination of cheap infantry footsoldiers and 'elite' infantry units, and have the use of skirmishers, which seems fitting. The Imperials have more cavalry, though still not a prolific amount, and have more expensive infantry overall, though many of these have armour saves, where Stormcloak equivalents do not. Also worth noting is the Stormclock 'Shield-Siblings' gives units an armour save of 6+ if an entire brigade is equipped with shields etc. I think it's pretty easy to make it work, and the campaign for the battles for Skyrim? Fantastic! I feels befitting, my highly loose calculations give me a rough population of Skyrim of 65,000 (obviously not the actual number of NPC's in the game, but an adjusted ratio based on real world examples and Daggerfall), so an army of roughly 500-1,000 works well in this circumstance. Plus the Warmaster rules are free to download, so that's a plus!

The kind of figures I would be using would probably be 10mm historic figures, depending on how close they portray both factions, but I'm thinkning 10mm Vikings for the Stormcloaks and 10mm Romans for the Imperials. With 1,000 point armies this would give us a rough working scale of 1,000 people per battle, which is fine I'm drafting together a couple of de facto army lists based on the Warmaster Armies book, and I'll post it here in due course <3
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

@Lianne - if you want to create a 10mm battle game, you should do so in your own thread.

   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Nah, he's welcome to talk about general ideas here (although making another thread for discussion of specific mechanics would probably be best). I think there is an interesting question in that, I know I just assumed that any ES mini game would need to be micro-skirmish to capture the feel of the video games - which, of course, are RPGs. But with Skyrim, there is now an element of larger warfare in those games. So should the point of a ES minis game be to tell the particular stories of a few characters or the more sweeping stories of the larger setting?

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Sure, but if I'm wanting to find out about 10mm battle TTWG, I'd rather look for that topic, than having to remember it's buried into the ES topic.

[point of fact: I'm actually more interested in the idea of a small scale battle game than an ES game. Sorry.]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/27 20:11:18


   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Glasgow, Scotland

I found Frostgrave to work for the Elder Scrolls quite well. Perhaps its not focused enough to represent the single player experience (though the spin off game may be more that), but it worked more along the lines of NPC groups.

The loot and progression system's a big part of Frostgrave, similar to how the video games play - with every dungeon you run netting loot from chests, etc, and maybe an experience level. The Elder Scrolls is generic enough a setting that I don't see a need to change any of the existing stat profiles or items to represent it - i.e. a Vampiric Blade's a fancy sword with a drain health enchantment, or that summoned demon's a Scamp or Flame Atronach.

I had a whole thread going at one point on my own Elder Scrolls stuff. Whenever I get back to it I'll expand my cave tileset into a Kwama mine, and probably a Dwemer tileset (I don't think ever did post finished caves, but I started on Dwemer constructs as well, and have a half sculpted up Nord warband somewhere). If you're just making the models yourself its not likely suitable ones are difficult to find. I picked up loads of Reaper stuff for conversions, and plenty of weird beasties fit in with Morrowind's fauna's aesthetic.

Though yeah, in terms of scenarios, like's been said the exploration factor should be a big thing. Perhaps expanding out into larger set pieces in a campaign setting (i.e. exploring to find a boss character). Perhaps with a randomly generated board, or a pre-determined one, but hidden from the players? I'd considered something similar myself with my cave system - laying out a series of narrow tunnels as the party moves forward broken up by larger rooms (though the issue with this is having enough spare tiles). Something similar could work for towns and the wilderness, its just a tileset (using papercraft ones would be cheaper too).

The games are single player, with the occasional NPC joining the player. In Skirmish games you tend to have at least 3 player characters. Having them being a bit overpowered so as not to go into the warband scale may work (Conan springs to mind). That'd open the opportunity for more character to the model's profiles. It'd be a style of gameplay similar to the Online game over the main franchise. Even with a procedurely generate dungeon (not that I'm holding onto that), other games manage to balance out enemy waves without making the party too overpowered. Whether the game had the party gaining power over time to face off the end boss, or had them consistently strong is up in the air (preferably the former, as again it fits in with the video games).

As a large scale battle game I see problems. That's never been where the games focused. There's many wars in the lore of course, but I'm not sure if that'd have the appeal. You don't generally see licensed titles drastically moving away from the gameplay of the original product. As a battle simulator preferably it wouldn't fall into just being a variation on Warhammer, though I can't really comment on what would make it unique. There's all sorts of weird lore which could be interesting mechanics for factions. Again however, that same lore could work on a smaller scale with character traits, and unique spells and equipment for individuals or warbands.

I'm picturing a cross between Conan and Frostgrave here. ...I'm maybe just a little from planning out a potential future Frostgrave campaign now. Hmn, probably with a small party made up of levelled up characters facing up against a pool of enemies in a hidden setup dungeon (interspersed with encounters in towns and ruins). Eugh, though that'd mean having to make new set piece dungeon rooms for each scenario.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User






As a large scale battle game I see problems. That's never been where the games focused. There's many wars in the lore of course, but I'm not sure if that'd have the appeal. You don't generally see licensed titles drastically moving away from the gameplay of the original product. As a battle simulator preferably it wouldn't fall into just being a variation on Warhammer, though I can't really comment on what would make it unique. There's all sorts of weird lore which could be interesting mechanics for factions. Again however, that same lore could work on a smaller scale with character traits, and unique spells and equipment for individuals or warbands.


Personally, that's the appeal: It's different from a standard ES experience, and would theoretically fill the space where these seemingly huge epic battles actually take place @Manchu also it's she and using the Warmaster system makes it very much different from Warhammer

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/27 23:19:12


 
   
Made in au
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine




Oz

 Manchu wrote:
Nah, he's welcome to talk about general ideas here (although making another thread for discussion of specific mechanics would probably be best). I think there is an interesting question in that, I know I just assumed that any ES mini game would need to be micro-skirmish to capture the feel of the video games - which, of course, are RPGs. But with Skyrim, there is now an element of larger warfare in those games. So should the point of a ES minis game be to tell the particular stories of a few characters or the more sweeping stories of the larger setting?


My opinion? Elder scrolls, while having epic big stuff in their lore, have always been about the individual. Unless you start talking about the online version, but we don't talk about that. Even with skyrim, unless you modded the civil war in, the civil war was still just about one person taking on a group of bad guys. My take on it would be more like warhammer quest, where a small amount of heroes take on bigger groups.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

So I play ESO and love it (yes, the online one that no one talks about).

And I've loved the lore for ages.

I do think there needs to be a space for at least like, unit sized games.
   
 
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