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Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




So, it seems like the general popular take on summoning-type abilities is that they just aren't worth it, mostly because having boots on the ground on Turn 1 is much, much more useful than having units that come in later. I've seen some edge case arguments for general summoning with Daemons, since they can come in right away and give you more versatility with your list-building, (IE you can look at the board and then decide what kind of units you need on turn 1,) but even that is fairly meh, and any abilities that only let you bring in a stock, preselected unit (Spawning Termagants from a Tervigon, Splitting horrors, turning enemies into Spawn) are usually left better just bringing those units to begin with. The ONLY benefit is that it doesn't count as a drop when vying for first turn.

So... Would it make sense to offer summoning a discount?
I certainly don't want the 'Free armies' problem of yestereditions, but at the same time, it's just pointlessly cost-prohibitive right now. So... What if you only had to pay half points? (On a unit-by-unit basis, not a model-by-model basis.) Or, in a Power Levels game, you only pay half-PL. Players would still have to set aside points for the sake of bringing in new units, but it would no longer be a completely pointless decision. You're getting troops in slower and later, but with the advantage that they weren't as costly to your base list.

Thoughts?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







I had experimented in 7th with adding distance and move restrictions to summoners, like those in 8th. For me, summoning wasn't necessarily about the material advantage (as summonings can be overwhelmed with a strong enough initial attack impetus) so much as their exceptional ability to be thrown down as flash reinforcements at the right place. It wasn't so much the "static summon factories" that made Summoning so bad, so much as stuff like an Eldar Jetbike Farseer with Mantle of the Laughing God in a Serpentspam list, or a Magnus Circus flying in from Reserves and Summoning after Magnus tossed out the D, or so.

I would imagine the best situation is: Summoner cannot move, the summoned unit cannot charge that turn, and the unit must be placed entirely within 6 of the summoner. After that, no point restrictions. (Re-adjust the mechanics to deal with Power Level derpery)
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I would worry that this would result in a toned down version of the "free points" problem. Example: In a 1500 point game where summoning comes with a 50% discount, I could set aside 500 points for summoning, summon 1000 points worth of stuff, and essentially end up with a 2000 point force to my opponent's 1500. So basically, I'd end up about ~33% more points than my opponent, though granted I'd be suffering from the summoning drawbacks you describe above. If you change the discount to something other than 50%, I worry that the points calculations get too messy for many people to do quickly.

A couple of things that might make summoning a bit more reasonable:

*Increase the range or remove the range cap entirely. Being able to basically deepstrike the perfect unit for the job halfway or all the way across the table and then go for a 9" charge is pretty potent. This reinforce the importance of bubble wrap, maintain the stationary "ritual" feeling of summoning, and bring back some of the deepstrike shenanigans of previous daemon editions.

*Let summoning be performed by units that moved. You lose the "stand still and perform a ritual" feeling, but you can now move your expensive characters forward while reinforcing your lines with new recruits. Combos well with deepstriking or rapid-advancing characters.

*Tie summoning to more than just the character-based mechanic. For instance, let khorne players perform a summoning test with no chance of taking wounds after they wipe out an enemy in the fight phase, spending command points to bring in whatever they summoned if the test is passed.

Also, I'd like to play daemon's advocate for a moment and point out that there are a few advantages to summoning units even if they're outweighed by the disadvantages. A summoned-in greater daemon won't be lascannon'd off the table turn 1, and being able to field the ideal counter to an enemy's army can be situationally useful.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






I think most people do think having more boots on the ground turn 1 is best.

I think they are wrong.

In every game I have played where I had deep strikers and my opponent has had deep strikers they were always quick to deploy their units asap. Without fail every time they deployed all their deep strikers turn 1 as though the mad rush to place them on the field was the best use of them.

I always hold onto at least 1 of my deepstrike units (but often more than 1) until after my opponent has deployed all of theres. By turn 2-3 the opponent has spread their units out, made openings, and have all their units in the places they are going to be. Which gives me full control of the board in terms of where I place my units for maximum impact while reducing their retaliation.

I have beaten every person who did this.

Anyone who doesn't see the advantage of hanging onto a deep strike unit until turn 2+ needs to play a few more games experimenting with the option to do so. It's incredibly powerful. A deep strike unit that you can customize to fit the situation, placement, plus time of arrival. feth man... I WISH my nids/tau could do that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/19 08:13:16



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch




Summoning a greater deamon is to hard to be practical 17 or so on a 3d6....
The only army I can see useing summoning a lot is a non marked chaos force as that can summon the unit they wish at the time

2000 6000 with Reaver Titan guard 2k
2500 (imperial force)
2500 (trimming down in 8th)
TS 30k at 5k points
Yes I have a problem
 
   
 
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