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So I got to thinking while I watched a match between a Deldar and a Tau on Youtube where the Deldar was able to run roughshod over the Tau with a bunch of -1 to hit units. Likewise the Stealthsuits and Ghostkeels were able to survive quite a bit of the Deldar's firepower.

So you know how Orks are really bad shots to begin with right? What if the Shoota line of weapons (and maybe Deffguns) never suffered any penalties to hit? I thought it would be really fluffy and also add a nice bonus to Ork shooting while also putting in a bit of humor about how an Ork has the same chance of hitting a large target that's standing still as something with some fancy stealth technology. Other than Deffguns the shoota weapons aren't really particularly powerful either so the marginal increase to hit rate doesn't sound too strong on them.

Haha, from a fluff standpoint I could get behind this. I'd even say they don't need to get a hit penalty against any of their weapons - the best you ever get with Orks is a 4+, and thats generally only on very expensive 1-shot weapons anyway, and they aren't very strong.

Unfortunately if GW hears this idea, they'd probably implement it... and then reduce all Ork BS to 6+ instead of 5+ as a "balance". It's what they do, when it comes to Orks.

That rule would make a lot of sense, theme wise in my mind. At the moment, orks are affected the most by the -1 to hit modifiers that are floating around - it literally cuts their firepower in half. I think it makes more sense to have hard to hit bonuses not apply as much to them, with their general approach to shooting.

It's the opposite to 7th, where they were the best at snap shooting because snap fire ONLY cut their firepower in half, compared with, say, space marines, who had theirs cut by 75% by being reduced to BS1.

Niiru wrote:
Haha, from a fluff standpoint I could get behind this. I'd even say they don't need to get a hit penalty against any of their weapons - the best you ever get with Orks is a 4+, and thats generally only on very expensive 1-shot weapons anyway, and they aren't very strong.

Unfortunately if GW hears this idea, they'd probably implement it... and then reduce all Ork BS to 6+ instead of 5+ as a "balance". It's what they do, when it comes to Orks.

This would be hilarious if it wasn't completely accurate.

Well personally I fail to see the humour or the reason Orks can just ignore negative modifiers.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well personally I fail to see the humour or the reason Orks can just ignore negative modifiers.

The humor is that orks don't aim, so trying to be hard to hit doesn't really affect their accuracy. So that is the humorous aspect.

The reason is because as it stands, Ork shooting is so piss poor that it needs a MAJOR overhaul to be even remotely worth taking in a competitive game.

I'd just say that anything fired by Orks always hits on a 6, regardless of modifiers. It'd be less powerful, but also make those -1 abilities not COMPLETELY worthless.

SemperMortis wrote:
The humor is that orks don't aim, so trying to be hard to hit doesn't really affect their accuracy. So that is the humorous aspect.

Ah... ah, I guess? In that case explosive weapons and gatling stuff should ignore modifiers as well, with so many bullets flying around.

SemperMortis wrote:
The reason is because as it stands, Ork shooting is so piss poor that it needs a MAJOR overhaul to be even remotely worth taking in a competitive game.

Well its not like its supposed to be their strong suit...

 Bobthehero wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
The humor is that orks don't aim, so trying to be hard to hit doesn't really affect their accuracy. So that is the humorous aspect.

Ah... ah, I guess? In that case explosive weapons and gatling stuff should ignore modifiers as well, with so many bullets flying around.

SemperMortis wrote:
The reason is because as it stands, Ork shooting is so piss poor that it needs a MAJOR overhaul to be even remotely worth taking in a competitive game.

Well its not like its supposed to be their strong suit...

That is fine that it isn't their strong suit, but as it stands they don't have any weapons worth mentioning for ranged combat. In fact at this point in the game it is actually a negative to take any ranged weapons for your ork army because the only competitive build we have is horde supported by a crappy 6+ FNP and a 5++ Bubble and Ghaz/weirdboyz.

 Bobthehero wrote:

Well its not like its supposed to be their strong suit...

Exactly, so what's wrong with some S4 AP0 shooting that "reliably" hits on 5+? And then you have the S5 AP0 big shootas, which are also not all that strong due to not having any rend. It only starts getting a bit strong when you consider other "dakka" themed attacks like deffguns, but even then they would only "reliably" hit on 5+.

Its yet another rule that wouldn't make sense and it would allow an army to ignore a bunch of rules from other armies, remember how unpleasant that was when Marines could ignore morale? Its a similar thing, on a smaller scale, granted, but still.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its yet another rule that wouldn't make sense and it would allow an army to ignore a bunch of rules from other armies, remember how unpleasant that was when Marines could ignore morale? Its a similar thing, on a smaller scale, granted, but still.

On a minuscule scale. Space Marines effectively ignored LD and fear and a host of other rules regarding leadership. Orks would ignore penalties to hit on models that already hit on 5+. Did you know that if something is hard to hit and its night fighting or a similar game mechanic orkz effectively CAN NOT HIT that unit?

Yes, and I am sure there's nothing else they could shoot at, anyway.

I've always felt that since rolls of 1 auto fail, rolls of 6 should auto pass (bravery aside).

 DoomMouse wrote:
It's the opposite to 7th, where they were the best at snap shooting because snap fire ONLY cut their firepower in half, compared with, say, space marines, who had theirs cut by 75% by being reduced to BS1.

That was something that amused me about 7th, that snap-firing for orks wasn't nearly as big of a deal because orks don't take the time to aim very well anyways.

That said, I think that getting rid of the penalty to hit probably isn't the best way to improve ork shooting. I'd personally rather see some combination of buffs from HQs and Stratagems, and moar dakka in either the form of more dakka per gun points reductions so we can get more gunz on the table.

Maybe give orks to hit roll 6+ one additional hit with rabid fire and assault weapons.
Not too powerful, but could give them couple additional hit's.

Angra wrote:
Maybe give orks to hit roll 6+ one additional hit with rabid fire and assault weapons.
Not too powerful, but can give them couple additional hit's.

That's a really neat idea that I think is worth pursuing. The only other things that interact with 6s to hit are Chaos Marines in melee with Imperium stuff right?

 Bobthehero wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
The reason is because as it stands, Ork shooting is so piss poor that it needs a MAJOR overhaul to be even remotely worth taking in a competitive game.

Well its not like its supposed to be their strong suit...

I would argue that it's supposed to be the strong suit of some orks, especially the Bad Moons. Orks don't take the time to aim properly but they're supposed to make up for it with overwhelming firepower. There's more to orks than close combat, just like there's more to the Imperial Guard than masses of cannon fodder.

I hope I don't come off as whining, because the ork index has several things I like and a bunch of the stuff in there just needs a nudge to be good.

SemperMortis wrote:
The reason is because as it stands, Ork shooting is so piss poor that it needs a MAJOR overhaul to be even remotely worth taking in a competitive game.

I think the bigger problem is not that the -1 to Orks hurts more since last edition the reverse was true when snapfiring.

The bigger problem was doubling the amount of shots for twin weapons and then handing out rerolls like no tomorrow (whereas Orks only get a reroll to charge).

 Frozocrone wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
The reason is because as it stands, Ork shooting is so piss poor that it needs a MAJOR overhaul to be even remotely worth taking in a competitive game.

I think the bigger problem is not that the -1 to Orks hurts more since last edition the reverse was true when snapfiring.

The bigger problem was doubling the amount of shots for twin weapons and then handing out rerolls like no tomorrow (whereas Orks only get a reroll to charge).

Yeah that was a bit ridiculous, TL heavy bolters hit 2.6 times last edition, this edition they hit 4 times, TL Big shootas last edition hit 1.6 times they now hit 2 times. So SMs got an increase of 1.4 and orkz got .4 To add insult to injury as you mentioned, they then got access to a plethora of abilities or rules that allow them to reroll misses, so that 4 turns into 5.3.

But that doesn't really change how bad ork shooting has become. Big Shootas went up 1pt in price, they didn't get any better in any way and last edition NOBODY took them. Rokkitz went up in price 140%, they went from standard equipment to useless because why spend 12pts on a weapon that is only likely to hit 1 or 2 times in a game. Shootas became free but who cares because they are useless. 30 Boyz all within 18inches of a target fire 60 shots, 20 hits and 10 wounds against a T4 model. against SM that is 3 dead Marines, 180pts of Orkz managed to kill less then 50pts worth of Marines.

Ork shooting isn't supposed to be game breaking but it should be competitive because as it stands right now, those are all useless models and equipment that is never taken.

I am serious enough about this idea to contact GW about it. What should I use to have at least a chance of have it getting noticed?

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
I am serious enough about this idea to contact GW about it. What should I use to have at least a chance of have it getting noticed?

Well since GW has taken exactly zero interest in ork players prior to this...Maybe write it down on a piece of paper, fold it into a paper airplane and then set it on fire.

We did get our old Mob rule back....so hey they did 1 thing kind of right....so don't set it on fire, just chuck it at the nearest wall.

SemperMortis wrote:
But that doesn't really change how bad ork shooting has become. Big Shootas went up 1pt in price, they didn't get any better in any way and last edition NOBODY took them.

To be fair, Big Shootas did get very slightly better in that we can advance and shoot them and they can wound most vehicles on a 5+ now. Of course, if we advance and shoot the chances of actually hitting anything with the big shootas are very low and shooting them at vehicles won't accomplish very much.
Edit: I think it's similar to a lot of changes in 8th, where Ork shooting got a little bit better but didn't benefit from the changes as much as many other armies did.

If we weren't advancing all of the time I think that Big Shootas would be appropriately costed. Right now against swarms of Hormagants or Genestealers it would be worth hanging back and blasting with Big Shootas, but I can't think of many other circumstances where we wouldn't be going full-tilt towards the enemy. If we're advancing I'd much rather spend the six points on another boy with a slugga and choppa. Even if we're fighting hormagants another boy might be better than a big shoota.

Being able to take one in five rather than one in ten would also help a little bit, as then we could build the mob partly around the idea of having a bunch of Big Shootas.

I think I would rather see 4 things for ork shooting

1.) Blanket rule that a 6 always hits - I don't think it is good for the game to make it impossible for some units to hit a target

2.)Decrease the randomness in number of shots for old template/blast weapons. Orks suffer terribly with weapons that have say D6 shots. Their BS is terrible, so if you roll poorly on the D6 it is highly likely they will do nothing.

3.) Reduce points on many weapons

4.) Increase shots for a lot of weapons in some manner. I like the idea that shootas doing an extra hit on a to hit roll of 6 (before modifiers I think would be needed) Doing 100 test rolls of this rule for 30 shoota boyz has an average of 29.25 hits with a max of 43 and min of 15. So it would be akin to boyz having BS 4+, but really focus on having lots of shots. Alternatively you could make shootas 3 shots, which would probably be faster for about the same result.

You could also wait for the Ork codex to come out and see if anything got fixed.

I feel really silly. I completely forgot and missed the proposed rules section. Sorry mods!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You could also wait for the Ork codex to come out and see if anything got fixed.

My faith in GWs ability to unfeth the Ork codex doesn't exist anymore. Not after they made KillaKanz 50pts last edition and pushed out *ready for it?*

7th edition Codex, Sucked
Waaaagh Ghazkuul, Sucked
Red Waaagh, Sucked some more
Waaagh Ghazkuul V2.0 Twice the suckiness half the tme
And The Wazbom Blasta Jet...because Orkz needed another AV10 flying platform that lacked dakka.

Breng77 wrote:
I think I would rather see 4 things for ork shooting

1.) Blanket rule that a 6 always hits - I don't think it is good for the game to make it impossible for some units to hit a target

2.)Decrease the randomness in number of shots for old template/blast weapons. Orks suffer terribly with weapons that have say D6 shots. Their BS is terrible, so if you roll poorly on the D6 it is highly likely they will do nothing.

3.) Reduce points on many weapons

4.) Increase shots for a lot of weapons in some manner. I like the idea that shootas doing an extra hit on a to hit roll of 6 (before modifiers I think would be needed) Doing 100 test rolls of this rule for 30 shoota boyz has an average of 29.25 hits with a max of 43 and min of 15. So it would be akin to boyz having BS 4+, but really focus on having lots of shots. Alternatively you could make shootas 3 shots, which would probably be faster for about the same result.

1) Isn't this already a rule? I know a 1 is always a miss, but in what situation does a 6 miss? I know there are some units with rules that give -1 to hit modifiers, so I guess if there were a couple of those stacked on one unit... Actually I guess this can happen easily with flyers, who get a -1 to hit by default, so another -1 from an ability and Orks would never be able to hit them. Wow.

Chaos can do this with Alpha Legion stratagem (I think) and a Nurgle power.

Currently afaik every unit that can stack multiple -1 modifiers can only do so conditionally

- Alpha Legion is one unit every turn (and only with a successful psychic test).
- Raven Guard is only once per game with smoke launchers on their dreads.
- Tau Ghostkeels need to be Stealth Drones to be within 3"
Plus all of the above require the enemy to be more than 12" away.

Of those the most egregious is probably the Ghostkeel.