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Which is better - Storm Bolter vs. Kustom Shoota (?!?)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Which is better?
Storm Bolter: Rapid fire 2, range 24, S4 hits on 3+
Kustom Shoota: Assault 4, Range 18 S4 hits on a 5+

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Which is better.

Storm Bolter: Rapid fire 2, range 24, S4 hits on 3+

Or

Kustom Shoota: Assault 4, Range 18 S4 hits on a 5+

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/21 02:27:28


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's an easy comparison. For every 6 shots you get 4 hits on the storm bolters vs 2 hits on the kustom shoota. That replaces the shear number of shots from the kustom. Plus the storm bolters is farther range and at 12 doubles it's shots. With those choices, it's the storm bolters.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Azuza001 wrote:
It's an easy comparison. For every 6 shots you get 4 hits on the storm bolters vs 2 hits on the kustom shoota. That replaces the shear number of shots from the kustom. Plus the storm bolters is farther range and at 12 doubles it's shots. With those choices, it's the storm bolters.


Very good points, now would you like me to tell you the ridiculous part?

A Stormbolter costs 2pts, a Kustom shoota costs 4. But so far everyone thinks the Storm Bolter is better. wouldn't it make more sense then for the Kustom to either be 1pt or get double those shots?

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in gb
Emboldened Warlock




Widnes UK

Its simple mathhammer:

Range 0-12":
SB - 2.67 hits
KS - 1.33 hits

Range 12-18":
SB - 1.33 hits
KS - 1.33 hits

Range 18-24":
SB - 1.33 hits
KS - 0 hits

The only advantage to having the kustom shoota is advancing and shooting.

Ulthwe: 7500 points 
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Orks need a massive errata to reduse the cost of all of their crap guns and units (which is all of them).

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 mrhappyface wrote:
Orks need a massive errata to reduse the cost of all of their crap guns and units (which is all of them).


LOL pretty much, it doesn't help that every buff we have is focused on melee. We have zero auras or unit buffs that directly effect shooting except for Grots, and giving grots +1 to hit when they are only allowed to be armed with pistols is a bit Fething stupid.

As it stands still nobody thinks a Kustom Shoota is better. So my next question is do you think 1pt for the upgrade is justified or do you think the Stormbolter and Kustom Shoota should switch points costs?

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Gig Harbor, WA

SemperMortis wrote:
Azuza001 wrote:
It's an easy comparison. For every 6 shots you get 4 hits on the storm bolters vs 2 hits on the kustom shoota. That replaces the shear number of shots from the kustom. Plus the storm bolters is farther range and at 12 doubles it's shots. With those choices, it's the storm bolters.


Very good points, now would you like me to tell you the ridiculous part?

A Stormbolter costs 2pts, a Kustom shoota costs 4. But so far everyone thinks the Storm Bolter is better. wouldn't it make more sense then for the Kustom to either be 1pt or get double those shots?


Stormbolter is seriously under priced though. I think they costed it based around free bolters for marines, but forgot that most everyone else has to pay for bolters. A heavy stubber costs more than a stormbolter, despite being pretty clearly inferior.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah the kustom shoota is way over priced. Not being an ork player myself I never looked at it until it was brought up here. If you took the bs of the user out of the equation though the kustom isn't a bad gun, and 4pts would be fine by me. It's that orks can't aim worth crap and have no way to get better (heck, give them some elite "Sharp Shoota Boyz" with BS4 and that would make the gun a he'll of a lot better.

Poor orks. With bs like that their best friend is a flamer isn't it? Not that that's much help at 8"......
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Azuza001 wrote:
Yeah the kustom shoota is way over priced. Not being an ork player myself I never looked at it until it was brought up here. If you took the bs of the user out of the equation though the kustom isn't a bad gun, and 4pts would be fine by me. It's that orks can't aim worth crap and have no way to get better (heck, give them some elite "Sharp Shoota Boyz" with BS4 and that would make the gun a he'll of a lot better.

Poor orks. With bs like that their best friend is a flamer isn't it? Not that that's much help at 8"......


we have 3 types of flamers,

1: Burna: D3 instead of D6, Expensive as hell. 14pts for a Burna Boy, whose only difference between him and a regular boy is the flamer.
2: Skorcha: D6 and at S5. only way to get a skorcha though is through Kombi weapons. A kombi Skorcha costs 19pts by itself, and the model that carries it is a Nob which costs 17pts. So for 1 Skorcha you are paying 36pts. Or you can take a Skorcha Buggy which costs 66pts.
And lastly we have 3: Supa Skorcha: 4D3 S6 -2AP 1 damage and range 24. Nice right? Its forgeworld, and it costs 28pts on a Big Trakk which together with its Supa Skorcha costs 160pts. Its T6 4+ save but it does have 15wounds. It will draw fire like a mofo and again, most importantly, its a Forgeworld model.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Take a free shoota instead of k-shoota when possible. Save those 4 pts.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





A massive FAQ/Errata redoing Orks seems unlikely, though - and any effort spent doing so might even detract from just outright working on releasing their Codex instead.

Based on the Codices we've seen so far, feeling a bit positive about what we'll see for the Orks. Though they may never return to the kind of prominence they enjoyed with Andy Chambers championing them.
   
Made in fi
Fresh-Faced New User




 mrhappyface wrote:
Orks need a massive errata to reduse the cost of all of their crap guns and units (which is all of them).

Power Klaw is so overpriced that it's not funny.
I just can't give myself a reason to take it over Big Choppa for nobs.

Also I love how I pay less for Burna in a Kommando unit than in Burna Boyz squad.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 mrhappyface wrote:
Orks need a massive errata to reduse the cost of all of their crap guns and units (which is all of them).
Like a codex maybe?
   
Made in cn
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




The ballistic skill of the models that can take it should never be a factor in determining the price of a gun as ballistic skill is priced by the model, not by the weapon. Marines for example, have already paid for that accuracy in their points cost, Orks have not.
An example of this is that a bs2+ character pays the same as a bs3+ sergant. Guard are the anomaly externally for this (on some weapons) but are the same internally, a bs4+ Sergant, a bs3+ veteran sergant and a bs2+ comissar Lord pay the same for a plasma pistol.
That being said, the Kustom shooter should be priced the same as a storm bolter. The storm bolter gets 2 more shots between 18"-24", the kustom shoota 2 more shots between 12"-18" and they get the same below 12". If anything, the kustom shoota is slightly better as it is assault so can be fired during an advance, that however isn't enough to justify it costing a point more, let alone 2. Please bear in mind I am not taking the b.s. of the firer into account as that is a model not weapon costing.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/21 11:16:39


 
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
Orks need a massive errata to reduse the cost of all of their crap guns and units (which is all of them).
Like a codex maybe?

Sure but that would mean waiting a year for a faction fix.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Between Alpha and Omega, and a little to the left

I think games workshop overvalues Assault as a weapon type, especially when it comes to orks. Normally I'm the type of person who prefers weapons to be costs purely on their own merits rather than on who's using them (otherwise you get problems like Guard where the discount special weapons fall in the hands of units who are already cheap but still have 3+ to hit) but assault's new rule feels really meh compared to the other weapons types now being able to charge (and moving with a heavy weapon is a slap on the wrist compared to before

Want to help support my plastic addiction? I sell stories about humans fighting to survive in a space age frontier.
Lord Harrab wrote:"Gimme back my leg-bone! *wack* Ow, don't hit me with it!" commonly uttered by Guardsman when in close combat with Orks.

Bonespitta's Badmoons 1441 pts.  
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






GhostRecon wrote:
A massive FAQ/Errata redoing Orks seems unlikely, though - and any effort spent doing so might even detract from just outright working on releasing their Codex instead.

Based on the Codices we've seen so far, feeling a bit positive about what we'll see for the Orks. Though they may never return to the kind of prominence they enjoyed with Andy Chambers championing them.


Phil Kelly's codex wasn't that bad either. At least he seemed to understand how to play orks, unlike most people writing rules for us since then. In 5th we had 2 actual competitive lists and 6-7 semi-competitive army styles.

I wouldn't mind him writing another codex, as long as someone else brings rules quality in line with what we have now.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





The custom shoota is a better gun, the problem is that it goes on an ork and needs to be priced based on the unit that is using it.

This is one of my disappointments in 8th. I get that it is easier to change points when a weapon costs the same for all models, but that makes things less balanced.

That said all orks that can take a kustom shoota are BS 5+ so it should be an easy fix. Kustom shootas should probably be 2pts and Storm bolters should be 4.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 argonak wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Azuza001 wrote:
It's an easy comparison. For every 6 shots you get 4 hits on the storm bolters vs 2 hits on the kustom shoota. That replaces the shear number of shots from the kustom. Plus the storm bolters is farther range and at 12 doubles it's shots. With those choices, it's the storm bolters.


Very good points, now would you like me to tell you the ridiculous part?

A Stormbolter costs 2pts, a Kustom shoota costs 4. But so far everyone thinks the Storm Bolter is better. wouldn't it make more sense then for the Kustom to either be 1pt or get double those shots?


Stormbolter is seriously under priced though. I think they costed it based around free bolters for marines, but forgot that most everyone else has to pay for bolters. A heavy stubber costs more than a stormbolter, despite being pretty clearly inferior.

a heavy stubber has 36 in range - and 3 shots past 12". In other words - it's way better than a storm bolter.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in se
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




The pts costs for weapons in the indices and codices are not necessarily representing the true value of those weapons. Those values are only used to compute the complete cost of a model/unit. In an effort to make the system simpler for us but mostly for themselves they have tried to give each weapon one pts cost to be applied to each model with that weapon option. This means that the only way to compare weapon pts costs directly is if both of the compared weapon options have a common reference point. For instance we can compare the cost of a Kheres pattern assault cannon directly to the cost of a regular assault cannon because those weapon options both have the option of being replaced by a multimelta. When you compare weapons that have no common reference points you can get very skewed results - auto boltstorm gauntlets for 14 pts look like a much better deal than a boltstorm gauntlet for 25 pts.

So TLR: Those pts cost values are not directly comparable.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







In other words, Orks are paying the "Not Space Marines" tax. The same way Eldar twin Shuriken Catapults are 10 points but Shuriken Cannons are 12.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sweet, we finally had someone vote the Kustom Shoota is better!

So the current voting is

42 for Stormbolter

And

1 for Kustom Shoota.

As for the argument that its better, well no, its the same. A stormbolter has longer range and can shoot from 24-19 where as the Kustom only gets to shoot 4 at 1-18. But then the Storm bolter makes up for its lack of shots from 13-18 by doubling its shots from 1-12. So if we discount the bearers BS skill they are roughly the same, The Kustom has the ability to shoot after advancing at a -1 to hit which is a slight buff over a stormbolter I guess, but again, The stormbolter won't have to advance to get into range as often because its got a 33% longer range.

And for the person who posted that weapons should be independent of the bearer entirely because they already paid for their statlines....well then why are Imperial Guard weapons cheaper across the board then Space Marines? It is literally the same weapons in the hands of different people. A lascanon for Marines costs 25pts, for IG...the exact same weapon is 20pts. So clearly they haven't given weapons a base cost for everyone, they adjust by faction at the very least. And since it is the EXACT SAME WEAPON we then have to look at how they adjusted the cost. the only difference between a SM with a Lascannon and a IG Heavy weapons team with a lascannon is BS and armor. The Armor isnt that important since the HWT gets an extra wound and will most likely be hunkered down in cover somewhere and I would argue a 4+ with 2w is as good as a 3+ with 1 wound. Plus IG get orders which make that lascanon better in some situations. So the real difference is the BS. Marines have +1 BS and their weapon is 5pts higher for it. SO for orks, wouldn't that mean at the very least our Similar heavy weapons should be at least 10pts cheaper? more so since we have ZERO synergy to make those ranged weapons any better? so maybe 15pts cheaper, or more accurately we should use percents, An ork equivalent item should be roughly 40-60% cheaper?

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





Denver, Colorado

How is this even a question? Especially since the storm bolter is half the points cost to boot, and is typically equipped on units that can deep strike, which means it's almost always in rapid fire range.

I love how storm bolters essentially got twin linked for free, while twin linked shootas turned into kustom shootas and doubled in cost for no reason.

I suppose, if the question was if space marines could take kustom shootas v. storm bolters, it might be somewhat of a comparison, but even if BS was the same for both, I would still say the storm bolters. Only 6" less rapid fire range, 6" longer overall range, and HALF the points.

If they were the same points cost, AND they both could be put on the same units............there could be a reasonable debate. But as it is now, it's storm bolter, no contest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 mrhappyface wrote:
Orks need a massive errata to reduse the cost of all of their crap guns and units (which is all of them).


Oh, you mean how a big shoota is more expensive that a damned HURRICANE BOLTER.

Like someone already said, it's the 'not space marines tax'.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/21 15:05:38


"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

Kustom Shoota because it has more shots at a greater range.

More importantly, I'm hipster/felt sorry for it because I realised just now Kustom Shootas have 0 shots at 24".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/21 15:12:37


YMDC = nightmare 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kap'n Krump wrote:
How is this even a question? Especially since the storm bolter is half the points cost to boot, and is typically equipped on units that can deep strike, which means it's almost always in rapid fire range.

I love how storm bolters essentially got twin linked for free, while twin linked shootas turned into kustom shootas and doubled in cost for no reason.

I suppose, if the question was if space marines could take kustom shootas v. storm bolters, it might be somewhat of a comparison, but even if BS was the same for both, I would still say the storm bolters. Only 6" less rapid fire range, 6" longer overall range, and HALF the points.

If they were the same points cost, AND they both could be put on the same units............there could be a reasonable debate. But as it is now, it's storm bolter, no contest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 mrhappyface wrote:
Orks need a massive errata to reduse the cost of all of their crap guns and units (which is all of them).


Oh, you mean how a big shoota is more expensive that a damned HURRICANE BOLTER.

Like someone already said, it's the 'not space marines tax'.


That would be a better debate probably, if Stormbolters and Kustom Shootas each cost 2pts which would be better, I would still give it to stormbolters but not by as much. That extra 6in range is really important, especially when you realize that the no mans land in most games is 24inches across.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, I didn't realize how ridiculous hurricane bolters are....

For those that don't understand. A big Shoota is 6pts is Assault 3 no ap 1 damage, range 36.

A hurricane bolter is 4pts, rapid fire 6, S4 no ap 1 damage range 24.

So 2 Big shootas put out 6 shots, 2 hits and against T4 about 1.66 wounds for 12pts.

for 12 pts you get 3 hurricane bolters which put out 18 shots, 12 hits and 6 wounds vs T4, at half range they double that to be 12 wounds.....

GW at this point is being blatantly biased

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/21 15:34:18


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Alaska

SemperMortis wrote:
GW at this point is being blatantly biased

In the SM Index* a Heavy Bolter is 10 points. I think that is still a better deal for the points than the Big Shoota once BS is factored in.

The reason I bring it up is that I don't think the Hurrican Bolter is necessarily an example of bias, considering it is less than half the cost of a Heavy Bolter. Either it was just a mistake, or the possibly the units that can mount it have some of the cost built in. I mean, I think Burna Boyz are too expensive, but in a vacuum someone could point out 0 point Ork burnas compared to 9 point* Space Marine flamers and claim that GW is biased in favor of the Orks.

*I don't have the new SM Codex, so I don't know if the points have changed from the Index values.

YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA! 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





Denver, Colorado

SemperMortis wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, I didn't realize how ridiculous hurricane bolters are....

For those that don't understand. A big Shoota is 6pts is Assault 3 no ap 1 damage, range 36.

A hurricane bolter is 4pts, rapid fire 6, S4 no ap 1 damage range 24.

So 2 Big shootas put out 6 shots, 2 hits and against T4 about 1.66 wounds for 12pts.

for 12 pts you get 3 hurricane bolters which put out 18 shots, 12 hits and 6 wounds vs T4, at half range they double that to be 12 wounds.....

GW at this point is being blatantly biased


Want to know something even funnier?

Marines pay 10 points for a heavy bolter, and 17 for a twin heavy bolter. So, the second one is 3 points cheaper. Honestly, I can see that making a bit of sense.

However, orks pay 6 points for a big shoota, and pay 14 points for a twin big shootas. So, we pay 2 more points for the second one.

Rokkits are even worse. Launchers are 12, rokkit packs (basically twin rokkits ) are 28. We pay 4 more for the second rokkit.

So, for orks, taking double single weapons is cheaper than taking the twin version of that same weapon.

I am unsure how common that is, but I'd be willing to be that it happens more to xenos than GW's poster boyz.

*Edit* I looked a little more into it, and eldar and necron twin weapons are across the board exactly 2x the price of their single counterparts. Fair. As are marine twin lascannons and multimeltas. But marine twin assault cannons are only a 14 point increase (21 to 35), and twin heavy plasma cannons are, hilariously, 4 whole extra points for an extra gun (30 to 34). To the best of my knowledge, orks are the only ones who get to pay extra for a twin gun.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/21 16:08:00


"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




The Shoota is a better weapon itself, so I guess this thread is basically, "Why don't my Orks shoot super accurate" again.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in cn
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




SemperMortis wrote:
Sweet, we finally had someone vote the Kustom Shoota is better!

So the current voting is

42 for Stormbolter

And

1 for Kustom Shoota.

As for the argument that its better, well no, its the same. A stormbolter has longer range and can shoot from 24-19 where as the Kustom only gets to shoot 4 at 1-18. But then the Storm bolter makes up for its lack of shots from 13-18 by doubling its shots from 1-12. So if we discount the bearers BS skill they are roughly the same, The Kustom has the ability to shoot after advancing at a -1 to hit which is a slight buff over a stormbolter I guess, but again, The stormbolter won't have to advance to get into range as often because its got a 33% longer range.

And for the person who posted that weapons should be independent of the bearer entirely because they already paid for their statlines....well then why are Imperial Guard weapons cheaper across the board then Space Marines? It is literally the same weapons in the hands of different people. A lascanon for Marines costs 25pts, for IG...the exact same weapon is 20pts. So clearly they haven't given weapons a base cost for everyone, they adjust by faction at the very least. And since it is the EXACT SAME WEAPON we then have to look at how they adjusted the cost. the only difference between a SM with a Lascannon and a IG Heavy weapons team with a lascannon is BS and armor. The Armor isnt that important since the HWT gets an extra wound and will most likely be hunkered down in cover somewhere and I would argue a 4+ with 2w is as good as a 3+ with 1 wound. Plus IG get orders which make that lascanon better in some situations. So the real difference is the BS. Marines have +1 BS and their weapon is 5pts higher for it. SO for orks, wouldn't that mean at the very least our Similar heavy weapons should be at least 10pts cheaper? more so since we have ZERO synergy to make those ranged weapons any better? so maybe 15pts cheaper, or more accurately we should use percents, An ork equivalent item should be roughly 40-60% cheaper?


You keep changing the question. The title asks which is better, a storm bolter or a kustom shoota, then the poll asks which is better, a storm bolter at bs3+ or a kustom shoota at bs5+... two entierly different questions. Then in this post you have changed it back to which is better, a storm bolter or a kustom shoota again. People have voted for the poll question but you seem to be taking it back and forth.
Of course the storm bolter is better when you take ballistic skill into account, that's pure and simple maths. They are both pretty similar power-wise as weapons however - the storm bolter gets 2 more shots in a particular 6" range, the kustom shoota gets 2 more shots in a different 6" range, and they get the same in a 12" range. The difference is that the Kustom shoota is assault whilst the storm bolter is longer range. So they should be worth the same points.
Now I also said that The ballistic skill is included in the models points cost not the weapons points cost, and if you had read my post properly you would see I had said that Guard were the anomaly. But I have given plenty of examples where ballistic skill does not affect the price of weapons, even in the same index. If you want a more obvious example, compare the Guard and Renegade indexes, one has majority ballistic skill 4+, one has majority ballistic skill 5+ and ALL the weapons are exactly the same cost.

Now if Orks got cheaper guns to the extent that they put out the same firepower for the same points then they would have a major advantage because they would be paying for their melee capabilities fairly but wouldn't be paying for their firepower fairly, as the points cost for an Ork is mainly taking into account its toughness and melee capabilities. If we said, for example, that a shoota should fire 6 shots if a marine bolter fired 3 to make sure they got the same amount of hits, and therefore should be priced the same... Then WHERE is the Orks weakness? The marine has paid for his ballistic skill in his points cost to get those two hits but the Ork hasn't, but is getting them anyway, just because. Do you see the imbalance with that 'logic'?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/21 16:14:15


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




SemperMortis wrote:
 Kap'n Krump wrote:
How is this even a question? Especially since the storm bolter is half the points cost to boot, and is typically equipped on units that can deep strike, which means it's almost always in rapid fire range.

I love how storm bolters essentially got twin linked for free, while twin linked shootas turned into kustom shootas and doubled in cost for no reason.

I suppose, if the question was if space marines could take kustom shootas v. storm bolters, it might be somewhat of a comparison, but even if BS was the same for both, I would still say the storm bolters. Only 6" less rapid fire range, 6" longer overall range, and HALF the points.

If they were the same points cost, AND they both could be put on the same units............there could be a reasonable debate. But as it is now, it's storm bolter, no contest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 mrhappyface wrote:
Orks need a massive errata to reduse the cost of all of their crap guns and units (which is all of them).


Oh, you mean how a big shoota is more expensive that a damned HURRICANE BOLTER.

Like someone already said, it's the 'not space marines tax'.


That would be a better debate probably, if Stormbolters and Kustom Shootas each cost 2pts which would be better, I would still give it to stormbolters but not by as much. That extra 6in range is really important, especially when you realize that the no mans land in most games is 24inches across.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, I didn't realize how ridiculous hurricane bolters are....

For those that don't understand. A big Shoota is 6pts is Assault 3 no ap 1 damage, range 36.

A hurricane bolter is 4pts, rapid fire 6, S4 no ap 1 damage range 24.

So 2 Big shootas put out 6 shots, 2 hits and against T4 about 1.66 wounds for 12pts.

for 12 pts you get 3 hurricane bolters which put out 18 shots, 12 hits and 6 wounds vs T4, at half range they double that to be 12 wounds.....

GW at this point is being blatantly biased

Hurricane Bolters are literally on FOUR units.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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