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So having watched a battle between 2 guys at my lfgs I saw something that has me bothered. One player was playing black Templar and the other Grey knights. The Grey knights player was throwing out a ton of smite, killing anything that got too close. He smited a predator to death, at least 10 Marines, and a dreadnought. The black templar player seemed helpless to the power of smite.

So my question is how can you protect yourself against mass smite armies? With the ability to take elite troops, heavy Support, even flyers by just rolling 5 on 2d6 it seems in numbers overpowering since it's not like it stops them from still shooting or charging. As a Salamander / Wolf player is the only real option to bring as many cheap libs/rune priests as I can? Maybe get some help from the Imperial Guard with cheap astropaths? Or just take as many basic units as possible so those smites can't really hit expensive targets?

I am not trying to taylor my list for gk, but we also have a deamon / chaos player who has been looking at tzeench options. So if I have a 50/50 of coming against psychic armies it seems prudent to get some protection lol.

What list was the GK player running? Because his Smites should only be doing 1 wound each unless he has one specific unot that has a short range, high-damage smite, and if a Black Templar player is in that close he should be killing things pretty effectively. I find it very hard to believe that the GK player got 30+ Mortal Wounds just from Smite in a 1500pt game.

Also, just take screening units. Smite always hits the closest enemy. If that closest enemy is cheap screening bodies, it's not gonna hurt nearly as much. Surround yourself with crappy chaff units and let the Smite roll off your back.

I could not tell you what list, but he wasn't doing one mortal wound he was rolling d3. He teleported in 3 squads then used one of his hq's to warp gate (I think that's the power) his grand master in dreadarmor up the field and they all just unloaded.

Honestly I wasn't paying much attention until the 2nd turn. Maybe he was not doing the smite right, we all talked after the game and the massive amounts of smite mortal wounds came up. Maybe he was also not aware it was 1 instead of d3? (Benefit of the doubt).

I will need to look at the Grey knights codex when I get a chance. Thanks.

Edit : for more information

He teleported the 3 squads behind the pread and smited it, used his grand master to also "deploy" through the power "warp gate" (the one that let's a unit move anywhere like it's being deployed from deep strike) behind the pread, finishing it off with a charge. Then when the dreadnought and Marines turned to charge the grand master it survived in close combat (dread totally whiffed) and then the master retreated and the Grey knights smited the dreadnought. After that it was "lock them down in close combat and smite whatever is moving in the psychic phase". The marine player just gave up that corner and tried to focus on their objectivea but had lost quite a bit at that point to the Grey knights and just didn't have anything left that could stop the grand master and his warp gating.

Also, can you warp gate out of cc, so as to not be falling back, and then shoot and charge?

Smite spam is a thing, but you could ask your opponent not to play smite spam.

Friend of mine was doing this, and was crushing all of us with some semblance of ease.

Watched multiple characters get instantly gibbed first or second turn of the game. Happened to me, entire squads nearly wiped out before the shooting phase. Tanks, suffering 5 or 6 mortal wounds, then beat down with a myriad of force weapons. We raged.

Then I got my Knight Titan assembled and it made it onto the table. Then he raged. Felt suitable that I would give him a taste of his own medicine.

GK Smite is nerfed pretty bad from normal Smite, because its on every GK psyker unit. 22 mortal wounds per game is an average. GK units cost a lot of points, which limits the number of units a GK player can field. That is the GK internal balance. 4 GK units all casting Smite at a non-daemon unit will only cause at best 4 mortal wounds.

GK special weapons suck, though. They are too expensive and are either Heavy or very short ranged. Most GK players just use stock Stormbolters on their infantry, and rely on Smite to bypass them invul saves.

Yes, Gate of Infinity does allow the effected unit to leave combat, and most GK plays take it on every unit they can as its one of the more useful powers. Sanctuary is another, for a +1 to invul saves.

SJ

Well my friend runs a Nurgle list with 8 smiters protected by bubblewrap obviously. I can tell you it's not a super fun list to face. You have to heavily tailor your list and feed the cheapest wounds to his smites. In a SW list that is Fenrisian Wolves (9pt/W) followed by Rhinos/Razorbacks (10pt/W). It doesn't help that his Daemon Princes hit like trucks when he reaches CC so you have to have some expensive wounds there to stand a chance in melee.

But yeah, taking a beating few times is good fun and all but I'd suggest telling your friend to tone down the spam if he wants to have any games in the future. Because it gets old.

Azuza001 wrote:

Honestly I wasn't paying much attention until the 2nd turn. Maybe he was not doing the smite right, we all talked after the game and the massive amounts of smite mortal wounds came up. Maybe he was also not aware it was 1 instead of d3? (Benefit of the doubt).

Grey Knights have a rule that limits their smite to 12" and 1 mortal wound not d3. As said before this is internal balance. By screening your best units you can protect them from smite spam but GK without smite spam would not be very strong.

Looks like the GK player wasn't following the Rurus.

1) Grey Knight smite only damages for one mortal wound

2) FNP-saves help agains smite-spam.

3) Bringing lots of deny can help against smite-spam.

4) Screening your most valuable units with cheap infantry is very effective and very easy to do. Nothing is more frustrating than getting that six-wound smite off, and then see him remove six cultists/gaunts/gretchin

I think there's a bit of a responsibility for players to know the core rules of their army, so as not to ruin games for other people. The rule nerfing GK smites is not some obscure thing - it's right there in both the codex and the index.

I've been on the receiving end of people who conveniently forget the rules for their stuff a lot, strangely only in ways that benefit them. It's really annoying.

As for how to actually defend against smite, the best defence is numbers. It's a pain if someone's smiting your storm ravens but not if they are smiting gaunts or intercessors.

Blocking smites with deny the witch isn't really that effective, because to manage it you'd need as many psykers as the smiter has, and to consistently roll higher than he does.

The Imperium does have access to Inquisitor Greyfax, and she gets to deny twice a turn with +1 to the roll. That makes her a pretty interesting option to consider. You could potentially bring her and a bunch of astropaths to sprinkle around the place.

If you're Imperium/Space Marines Culexus Assassins. Deep Striking 18" bubble of -2 to cast and deny. Add to that some of your own Psykers to Deny the Witch and get off your own Psychic powers with impunity. If you really want to double down on anti Smite Spam then lead out with your vehicles, cast Psychic Fortress for a 4+ Save vs mortal wounds from psychic attacks then when the Smite Spam starts up activate the Armour of Contempt Stratagem for another 5+ on top of that. I've been beaten hard by Smite Spam a few times, so I looked at my options and can now completely shut down the build and make my games a little less one sided.

If you're not Imperium I haven't the foggiest, beyond the obvious bring your own psykers to deny and smite back.

smite has horrible targeting rules. Having some form of bubble wrap or smart positioning could help.

Bringing your own psykick denial could also help. Shadow in the warp ftw!

 Niiai wrote:
smite has horrible targeting rules. Having some form of bubble wrap or smart positioning could help.

Bringing your own psykick denial could also help. Shadow in the warp ftw!

This. Exactly this

Sisters of Silence shut down Smite if they are the closer unit, because they can't be targeted while the caster has to target them. Even the FAQ agrees.

SJ

Ooh. I'd assumed that it just slid past them to the next nearest thing, due to the rule saying they can't be targeted. Quite tempted to use some sisters of silence now.

Same applies to the culexus. And it is easy to position him as closest with his infiltration. And he is annoying to remove unless you're staring down dark reapers.

Thanks guys, you have given me some ideas to make this a more balanced fight. My initial reaction was to keep things in reserves myself and then leave the basic stuff on the field. Once he drops his psychers in I would drop right behind them and do my own form of eradication. But if the basic stuff I leave on the field has an assassin and a few rune priests hanging around them that would at least mean he is bouncing smite off of a harder to do area before I counter hit.

Ynnari can Smite spam, too. Since their psykers can cast Smite up to 3 times per game turn, (normal cast in their turn, then SfD cast in their turn and SfD in your turn) it can get pretty brutal.

Smite spam is a army specific counter. Its similar to bring an all lass cannon armor against an all land raider army.

Its good agaisnt elite forces like marines with expensive models.

Another way of getting loads of denials (and your own smite spam...) for imperials are astropaths and primaris psykers.

Vanguard detachment - 165pts

Primaris psyker
8 individual astropaths with laspistols

That gets you nine denials plus an expected mortal wound output of around 6-7 per turn against armies with no denial of their own. It does put your drop count and potential kill points through the roof, but for points per effectiveness it's a crazy efficient detachment. You even get a free CP out of it...

 DoomMouse wrote:
Another way of getting loads of denials (and your own smite spam...) for imperials are astropaths and primaris psykers.

Vanguard detachment - 165pts

Primaris psyker
8 individual astropaths with laspistols

That gets you nine denials plus an expected mortal wound output of around 6-7 per turn against armies with no denial of their own. It does put your drop count and potential kill points through the roof, but for points per effectiveness it's a crazy efficient detachment. You even get a free CP out of it...

Lol good point. I can see it now....

Gk player : Wait, your space Marines. What are those?
Me: those are the IG that say "NO".

Azuza001 wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Another way of getting loads of denials (and your own smite spam...) for imperials are astropaths and primaris psykers.

Vanguard detachment - 165pts

Primaris psyker
8 individual astropaths with laspistols

That gets you nine denials plus an expected mortal wound output of around 6-7 per turn against armies with no denial of their own. It does put your drop count and potential kill points through the roof, but for points per effectiveness it's a crazy efficient detachment. You even get a free CP out of it...

Lol good point. I can see it now....

Gk player : Wait, your space Marines. What are those?
Me: those are the IG that say "NO".

This isn't a bad plan. Another option would be a unit of sister of silence prosecutors, two astropaths and Inquisitor Greyfax. Greyfax gets to deny twice with +1 on the roll; the two astropaths can back that up further; the prosecutors can tank smites all day long and snipe psykers - which isn't amazing but can work ok against the cheap characters you tend to see in smite spam lists.

If you're having a vanguard detachment of something other than your main army, it also opens up the option to include various other cool stuff without losing out on Chapter Tactics (or equivalent). You could bring an assassin, for example, or some scions. Maybe a Manticore.

The extreme end of this is to take a fully-formed battalion of Grey Knights. Then you get +1 to all deny the witch rolls, loads of guys to do it, and you can smite back at people.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Another way of getting loads of denials (and your own smite spam...) for imperials are astropaths and primaris psykers.

Vanguard detachment - 165pts

Primaris psyker
8 individual astropaths with laspistols

That gets you nine denials plus an expected mortal wound output of around 6-7 per turn against armies with no denial of their own. It does put your drop count and potential kill points through the roof, but for points per effectiveness it's a crazy efficient detachment. You even get a free CP out of it...

IG players might as well already concede if their opponent wants to play kill points.

That grey knight player was playing the rules wrong. That said Grey knights can put out a fair bit of single smite spam.

It is great against space marine armies or anyone who has fairly high cost single or double wound models or when you are fighting characters.

It isn't great against hordes or vehicles.

It's down to the placement of your own army. You will get smited. You have to just make sure it is something that will either survive or you don't mind losing.

 argonak wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Another way of getting loads of denials (and your own smite spam...) for imperials are astropaths and primaris psykers.

Vanguard detachment - 165pts

Primaris psyker
8 individual astropaths with laspistols

That gets you nine denials plus an expected mortal wound output of around 6-7 per turn against armies with no denial of their own. It does put your drop count and potential kill points through the roof, but for points per effectiveness it's a crazy efficient detachment. You even get a free CP out of it...

IG players might as well already concede if their opponent wants to play kill points.

This is true haha. Or go for tabling I guess

 Jimsolo wrote:
Ynnari can Smite spam, too. Since their psykers can cast Smite up to 3 times per game turn, (normal cast in their turn, then SfD cast in their turn and SfD in your turn) it can get pretty brutal.

One of them can do it 4 times. Gaze of Ynnead is superior Smite, they can cast it and regular smite in the psychic phase.

In practice, your scenario never really happens. Yvraine or a Farseer is rarely close enough and the Yncarne would use soulburst for movement or melee most of the time. Normally, when something dies and triggers SfD, there is a blob of guardians or Dark Reapers to make better use of it than a single smite.

In my own experience, I do use a lot of Smite with the Yncarne. I give him Gaze and Word but I usually end up casting Gaze and Smite in it's psychic phase. The Yncarne is capable of some serious damage between his melee and those Smites.