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This one is pretty simple: Conscripts lose the Astra Militarum and <Regiment> keywords.

This should solve all kinds of problems associated with the unit currently. I'm pretty sure that orders and summary execution (among other buffs) weren't written with 4 squads of 50 conscripts in mind.

They are now worthless to take as the majority of them can no longer get any buff since a lot of the abilities requier keywords like though.

Better solution, they can't take special orders, solved

Now they are massively overcosted and can't be taken in most battleforged armies which use the Astra Militarium keyword for it's formations.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Now they are massively overcosted and can't be taken in most battleforged armies which use the Astra Militarium keyword for it's formations.

You're right in that there'd need to be a carve out for lacking the AM keyword. I'd disagree they'd be massively over costed; I think a the moment they're certainly under costed or at least under regulated, hence their heavy over representation in the current competitive meta.

znelson wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Now they are massively overcosted and can't be taken in most battleforged armies which use the Astra Militarium keyword for it's formations.

You're right in that there'd need to be a carve out for lacking the AM keyword. I'd disagree they'd be massively over costed; I think a the moment they're certainly under costed or at least under regulated, hence their heavy over representation in the current competitive meta.

That's the part I don't get. Most lists with conscripts are those 200+ conscripts lists people get of the internet and often fail to place in the top 10 with. We do see them in a few lists, but regular guardsmen still outnumber them in lists hands down. No matter how you cut it, they can't hit the broadside of a barn compared to any other troop choice. AM Infantry works becuase of overlapping buffs - they aren't tac marines that can just sit around on thier own. It's overkill, the kind of knee jerk thing new players recommend against whatever list they played against last.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

znelson wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Now they are massively overcosted and can't be taken in most battleforged armies which use the Astra Militarium keyword for it's formations.

You're right in that there'd need to be a carve out for lacking the AM keyword. I'd disagree they'd be massively over costed; I think a the moment they're certainly under costed or at least under regulated, hence their heavy over representation in the current competitive meta.

That's the part I don't get. Most lists with conscripts are those 200+ conscripts lists people get of the internet and often fail to place in the top 10 with. We do see them in a few lists, but regular guardsmen still outnumber them in lists hands down. No matter how you cut it, they can't hit the broadside of a barn compared to any other troop choice. AM Infantry works becuase of overlapping buffs - they aren't tac marines that can just sit around on thier own. It's overkill, the kind of knee jerk thing new players recommend against whatever list they played against last.

Wut? the top 3-5 in every major tournament lately has had 60-150 conscripts.....

 Klowny wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

znelson wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Now they are massively overcosted and can't be taken in most battleforged armies which use the Astra Militarium keyword for it's formations.

You're right in that there'd need to be a carve out for lacking the AM keyword. I'd disagree they'd be massively over costed; I think a the moment they're certainly under costed or at least under regulated, hence their heavy over representation in the current competitive meta.

That's the part I don't get. Most lists with conscripts are those 200+ conscripts lists people get of the internet and often fail to place in the top 10 with. We do see them in a few lists, but regular guardsmen still outnumber them in lists hands down. No matter how you cut it, they can't hit the broadside of a barn compared to any other troop choice. AM Infantry works becuase of overlapping buffs - they aren't tac marines that can just sit around on thier own. It's overkill, the kind of knee jerk thing new players recommend against whatever list they played against last.

Wut? the top 3-5 in every major tournament lately has had 60-150 conscripts.....

That had to be a troll answer.

I retract my statement, its been a while since I checked. mah bad

 Klowny wrote:
I retract my statement, its been a while since I checked. mah bad

Why are YOU retracting?

BloodofKittens has the top 3 list from all the major tournaments. Its acutally very light on conscripts.... :/

The easiest way to fix them is to reduce the max size of a unit to somewhere between 20 and 30. 30 maybe even too high.

Reduce max size to 30 (not even Gaunts can go above this I mean come the feth on) and prevent orders from affecting them (or make them fail 50% of the time). The problem isn't Conscripts, it's the toolbox around them (Orders, Commissars, wounding on 6's) that make them too good. It's like in MtG, a card on it's own might not be too good, but combine it with something else and it becomes absurdly broken.

Yeah, limit their number to 30. I'm not sure about restricting orders to them though. It seems a little heavy handed.

 Klowny wrote:
BloodofKittens has the top 3 list from all the major tournaments. Its acutally very light on conscripts.... :/

The first lists were kinda creative, then it moved to Rob G. w/ Conscripts screening walls, then Flyer spam, we're awaiting the next tourney results to see where the meta will shift.

Conscripts are gonna be used as screening walls in any Imperium force, especially now with Boots on the Ground rule.

Orrrrr, we could stop whining about a unit and try to think up ways to deal with it. Or are pox walkers overpowered as well, seeing as they have a 5+ save that can never be denied, are literally immune to morale and can negate their only weakness with the inclusion of one supporting character?

Conscripts are not too strong. And ironically it is still the players whom where most vocal about how the Guard should be nothing but a tide of cheap and crappy bodies who are now complaining about the Guard being reduced to a tide of cheap and crappy bodies.
TL;DR, this is all just a kneejerk reaction.

Orrrr, we could stop whining about a discussion and try to talk about ways to deal with it. Or is talking annoying as well, seeing as people always do it, even though some people are immune to the concept of people having opinions?

Conscripts are too durable. And ironically it is still the players whom were most vocal about how the Guard are perfectly fine and that they deserved to be overpowered for a edition who are now complaining about the discussion being focused on one unit that others are saying is undercosted.
TL;DR This is just a parody.

znelson wrote:
This one is pretty simple: Conscripts lose the Astra Militarum and <Regiment> keywords.

This should solve all kinds of problems associated with the unit currently. I'm pretty sure that orders and summary execution (among other buffs) weren't written with 4 squads of 50 conscripts in mind.

I mean this has to win a prize for the least elegant and most hamfisted solution to Conscripts I've seen yet. There's literally no reason to take LD4, orderless Conscripts. Any casualty past the 4th one is killing an additional one for free on top of the D6 casualties.

A 50 man unit would die in a single turns shooting to any half competent list capable of doing 25 wounds to T3/5+ save models. Nobody in their right mind would spend 7.5% of their points to have a screening unit that doesn't make it to turn 2 (the turn most charges happen). A Guard army without a screen is finished. Yes, all that stuff in back is still alive after you've killed the screen, but if it's constantly falling back, or worse, can't fall back, it might as well be dead.

Better would be to drop max size to 30-40 and require an officer and a couple squads of infantry per conscript unit. This way Imperium lists can't raid the AM index as easily for cheap screens while letting the Guard have the screen they need in order to function as an army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
Orrrr, we could stop whining about a discussion and try to talk about ways to deal with it. Or is talking annoying as well, seeing as people always do it, even though some people are immune to the concept of people having opinions?

Conscripts are too durable. And ironically it is still the players whom were most vocal about how the Guard are perfectly fine and that they deserved to be overpowered for a edition who are now complaining about the discussion being focused on one unit that others are saying is undercosted.
TL;DR This is just a parody.

Which would be fine if the OP started out in good faith and didn't make a proposal that was pretty much 'lol let's remove conscripts from the game guys'

 master of ordinance wrote:
Orrrrr, we could stop whining about a unit and try to think up ways to deal with it. Or are pox walkers overpowered as well, seeing as they have a 5+ save that can never be denied, are literally immune to morale and can negate their only weakness with the inclusion of one supporting character?

Conscripts are not too strong. And ironically it is still the players whom where most vocal about how the Guard should be nothing but a tide of cheap and crappy bodies who are now complaining about the Guard being reduced to a tide of cheap and crappy bodies.
TL;DR, this is all just a kneejerk reaction.

Pox Walkers are twice the price.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Orrrrr, we could stop whining about a unit and try to think up ways to deal with it. Or are pox walkers overpowered as well, seeing as they have a 5+ save that can never be denied, are literally immune to morale and can negate their only weakness with the inclusion of one supporting character?

Conscripts are not too strong. And ironically it is still the players whom where most vocal about how the Guard should be nothing but a tide of cheap and crappy bodies who are now complaining about the Guard being reduced to a tide of cheap and crappy bodies.
TL;DR, this is all just a kneejerk reaction.

Pox Walkers are twice the price.

A Death Guard army doesn't fall like a house of cards once the Poxwalkers are gone though. They have characters that can actually win melee fights and extremely durable line troops behind them. Whereas once the Conscript line is gone, it's stun lock time for any Guard vehicles and the 10 man infantry squads and trash-tier characters just get shredded.

Thinking about it, removing orders and other similar measures is too much, but capping their numbers at 30 would be ok. It would bring them into line with other similar units.

I've got a novel idea though; what if they became elites. Hear me out. They're support troops right? Sent to back up regular IG? So rather than creating an arbitrary one conscript squad per infantry squad rule, put them in the support troops section. That way if you want your brigade you'll have to pay a tax of infantry (or scion) squads. Just a thought.

RogueApiary wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Orrrrr, we could stop whining about a unit and try to think up ways to deal with it. Or are pox walkers overpowered as well, seeing as they have a 5+ save that can never be denied, are literally immune to morale and can negate their only weakness with the inclusion of one supporting character?

Conscripts are not too strong. And ironically it is still the players whom where most vocal about how the Guard should be nothing but a tide of cheap and crappy bodies who are now complaining about the Guard being reduced to a tide of cheap and crappy bodies.
TL;DR, this is all just a kneejerk reaction.

Pox Walkers are twice the price.

A Death Guard army doesn't fall like a house of cards once the Poxwalkers are gone though. They have characters that can actually win melee fights and extremely durable line troops behind them. Whereas once the Conscript line is gone, it's stun lock time for any Guard vehicles and the 10 man infantry squads and trash-tier characters just get shredded.

If you were at all correct there would be tournament showings for Death Guard.

Feel free to tell the people in the Death Guard Tactics thread, waiting for their codex to be competitive, that they're playing wrong though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

If you were at all correct there would be tournament showings for Death Guard.

Feel free to tell the people in the Death Guard Tactics thread, waiting for their codex to be competitive, that they're playing wrong though.

Wow, twist my words much? I never said the rest of the army was competitive without poxwalkers, I said the rest of the army was durable and can actually do SOMETHING in melee, which a Guard army is not and cannot. Death Guard have other problems that keep them from being competitive, like painfully slow movement and frankly pathetic shooting at long range.

What I am trying to say is while both units are screens, they play a different role in the relative dynamics of their armies and therefore can't be compared 1-1.

I'm not arguing Conscripts are fine, I'm saying any change to them needs to be extremely carefully done or we go back to trash tier or doing silly things like taking 10 man barebones infantry squads as a stopgap.

On retrospect, my initial comment on the change for this was really crap. I think heavy handed and poorly thought through would be a good description.

As for winning AM lists not using conscripts - that's simply untrue. 1st and 2nd at BAO both ran a large number of conscripts. It's worth noting that neither of the lists used squad sizes over 30, and with the flexibility of force organization in 8th, I'm not sure changing their max size or battlefield role will be effective.

Anything that costs 3pts a model, isn't vulnerable to morale, and can move twice in a turn is likely going to be problematic. I'm not sure what the right solution is.

Conscripts need to be limited to one squad per 2 infantry squads. Ive always played 40-50 conscripts with a priest/commissar attached since it was an option and it has never been OP before due to the limitations of only fitting 1 in my standard army due to platoon resrictions. The issue now is that conscripts can be spammed with no drawbacks. As soon as you make them 1per2 infantry squads the spam problem disappears and you get your horde option without this stupid number of immoveable bodies rocking around.

The other 2 issues with conscripts are caused by game design. The first is the lack of sniper units available to xenos armies and many imperial armies without using allies. Frankly most sniper units are shocking. Tau snipers for example are 1 str5shot for 18pts at bs2 (bs3 if you buy another 43pt model) orks and nids have no snipers as far as im aware. Necron deathmarks are too expensive for what they achieve. Etc. Snipers need to become more effective against models with the character keyword and some form of character sniping needs to be available for all armies.

The second is the ineffectiveness of blast weapons. Removing templates was a bad idea anyway imo but it could still have been implemented better. Flamers are a bit worse but are manageable while large blast weapons have been neutered. These are the weapons that before scared conscripts. Now its like "pfft you can kill 6 3pt guys max" theres no point even firing at them. Large blast weapons need to get an extra d6 hits per 10 models in the unit rounding up. At least.

As a side note I would support a 6+ save on conscrips. Due to the new AP system all 5+ save models have become much harder to shift, needining 33% more wounds against them with small arms to kill the same amount of models

Snipers as an answer to the problem is a good idea, just not one that GW seems seriously invested in pursuing.

On a tangent, imho Lictors should fill that role for 'Nids, but writing those rules in a fair and balanced way could be challenging.

Best fix is still the simplest one that requires no new rules or special exceptions.

Change the size of the unit to 20 Conscripts.

It leaves them good, but not broken, and puts them in the general framework of the Guard.

The Wakshaani Compromise.

I back that. Forgot my stupid suggestion of making them elites too. Just cap their numbers and they'll be ok.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I back that. Forgot my stupid suggestion of making them elites too. Just cap their numbers and they'll be ok.

This change would mean to say that an AM player is sufficiently restricted in composition that they won't have the troop slots to take enough conscripts.

I think that is a fundamentally flawed assessment.

 znelson wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I back that. Forgot my stupid suggestion of making them elites too. Just cap their numbers and they'll be ok.

This change would mean to say that an AM player is sufficiently restricted in composition that they won't have the troop slots to take enough conscripts.

I think that is a fundamentally flawed assessment.

120 in a battalion isn't enough?

240 in a brigade isn't enough?

Remember, you can take 1 detatchment, +1 per thousand points (so 2 at a thousand, 2 at two thousand, etc)

120 conscripts at a thousand is still easy, 240 is doable at 2K and, in fact, you could take 360 if you really wanted (three Battallions, each with six 20-man units) ... You're *choking* in slots as a Guard player.

But, it brings the orders back under control, keeps the Commissar's power from being as dominant, lowers the damage that they can do from Overwatch, and so on.

It's the cleanest fix.

(edit)

Keep in mind, 240 conscripts at 2000 costs you only 720 pts, leaving nearly two-thirds of your points for other stuff. It's 1080 for 360. You have to bring 6 HQ slots, then have 9 each Elite, Fast, and Heavy slots still open, six flyers, and can take another 9 HQ choices as well.