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I was talking to a friend today and he told me about this guy he saw get kicked out of a FLGS because he was using 3d printed models. But then I started thinking: 3d printed models are pretty easy to spot because of the not quite right shape and the printing lines, but what about recasts? The sign of a recast model is double mild lines and imperfect details but once someone has cleaned up the model by removing extra mold lines and remodelled any missing details with greenstuff and then painted it all up, how can you tell it's a recast?

Anyone have any experience with finding a recast model that's been cleaned up and painted or is it an impossible task?

The better question is....why does it matter?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The better question is....why does it matter?

Done in one!

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The better question is....why does it matter?

Curiosity? (I'm not a cat so that should be fine)

Usually, double mold lines. And that certain details are warped and distorted. In truth, the only way you can spot some of them is to put them beside the real thing, often before they're assembled and painted. Once properly modeled, assembled, and painted- it can be harder to tell.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The better question is....why does it matter?

Curiosity? (I'm not a cat so that should be fine)

Perhaps, but your avatar is Brave Sir Nigel, Who Bravely Ran Away. Curiosity might strike purely of spite.

Unless you're Games Workshop, it like as not won't matter. But probably the only way you'll ever be able to tell the difference is weight, and then only with some models. Older minis that you know should be metal will feel wrong. I find even painted, resin models feel a bit different to the touch, too, from either plastic or metal. But that might just be me trying to be super delicate with them. And some resin smells, even when dry - although sniffing your opponents models will get you all sorts of odd looks, and it might fade as models get older or painted and varnished.

Of course, occasionally something obvious will happen, like a Dreadknights leg snapping off mid-thigh. Something that happens with cheap, nasty resin but not plastic.

But a well-done recast will likely not get noticed. Only GW is harmed, though, and they've got a fair share of Karma backlog that it doesn't exactly make me weep bitter, broken tears.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The better question is....why does it matter?

Pretty much this.

On the tabletop at least.

I'd have, and have had, no qualms about purchasing what I knew or suspected to be recasts for my own use at a price commensurate with that fact.

People who purchase them and then try and push them on to other unsuspecting hobbyists as genuine models? I'll happily help anyone track them down and nail their genitalia to a wall (metaphorically speaking. Of course.)

In that context a better thread title would be "How do you spot a recast offered for sale?" But that's a topic already well covered for anyone who needs the info.

It's hard for me to take issue with recasters. I won't lie, if I did a DKoK army, a large portion of the DKoK things, short of the Infantry, would be recast.

It's not going to be welcome at our local GW store anyway (Though I'm still trying to figure out how GW can ban their own product), so I might as well use it.

I'd just issue a friendly "Dakka vet" warning to the thread that it's probably advisable to stay away from the broader topic of the rights and wrongs of recasting, it always gets heated and the thread always ends up locked as a result.

There's been no substantive change in IP law anywhere in the world likely to be relevant, to my knowledge, and people's own morality is unlikely to change significantly, so there not going to be any new arguments, just the same dance to the same inevitable conclusion.

 mrhappyface wrote:
I was talking to a friend today and he told me about this guy he saw get kicked out of a FLGS because he was using 3d printed models. But then I started thinking: 3d printed models are pretty easy to spot because of the not quite right shape and the printing lines, but what about recasts? The sign of a recast model is double mild lines and imperfect details but once someone has cleaned up the model by removing extra mold lines and remodelled any missing details with greenstuff and then painted it all up, how can you tell it's a recast?

Anyone have any experience with finding a recast model that's been cleaned up and painted or is it an impossible task?

You can't, the only possible way to spot one would if you knew for a fact that model was only released in metal, and it feels very light, or was only made in resin yet is clearly a metal piece. Trying to spot other materials is pretty much impossible unless you have a near encyclopedic knowledge of a company's casting process, materials used, and catalogue history. Many kits come in a variety of plastic hues, mold line quality, wear out over time, and have other unforseen variations pop up, like the landspeeder's infamous tendency to warp. 3D printed stuff is about the only thing I could buy someone recognizing, if only because 3d printing for the average person is still fairly crude. You might be able to pull off boxier models like a Rhino or drop pod but anything else would be glaringly obvious unless you had a seriously high quality printer, and at that point you could've bought a real army for cheaper.

Also, despite what people like to claim, recasting can absolutely be done to a high enough quality that you can't tell a difference between a "real" model and a "fake" one, especially someone who has a lot of patience and practice can do it pretty well. Odds are everyone on this forum who has played for at least a year has played against a few recasts and never even realised it, especially if you live in a larger city and played against someone with a lot of forgeworld models. Literally every single sign that people cite as tells (mold lines, bad detail, bubbles, gaps, etc.) can be found on legitimate models as well, aside from double mold lines, and even that's a maybe. Take a look online and you'll see many legitimate models with defects straight from their company that one could easily construe as recasts. You can also run into a weird situation where some recasts are consistently better quality than the original product, although this is usually the case of a recaster who got an early model in the mold's life and is using that as his master, while the company is using the mold till it falls apart. Usually you see that with forgeworld recasts on older kits and anything ever made in finecast. I've seen DKOK recasts for example that side by side with original FW models made the FW models look like recasts.

Trying to spot them and kick people out for them is basically just going to cause a "no true scotsman" situation and innocent people will get kicked out because they were unlucky enough to get an average Forgeworld or Finecast model with one of the many defects both companies are known for at times. Just play the game and don't worry about it. It really isn't worth your time to become the model police and make sure everyone has legal models. Especially if you've bought used models, odds are you own a few recasts as well and don't even realize it.


TL;DR What I'm trying to say is that it simply isn't worth bothering about. The only time knowing whether something is recast or not matters is when you're buying a used lot, and even there if looks good then it doesn't matter unless you're specifically collecting something with the intent to sell it later. Model quality among both official sellers and recasters can vary so wildly that you can see top knotch recasts and absolutely garbage quality originals and vice versa. And if you're playing against someone who uses a recast army, it doesn't really matter there either, as odds are you'll never be able to notice unless they told you anyways.

I know I've been sold knock offs two times.

The first model was quite noticible. It was a Terminator Chaplain. Since I already own 2 of them, it was pretty easy to spot the difference. Parts that are way too thin/flimsy, and it even had a bit of silicon left on the model from when the pulled it out of the mold. I threw the guy in the trash and cursed the heavens.

The second one was much less noticible. It was a FW Magos Dominus. The resin was the right color, and it even came in a forgeworld baggie. But once I got to work on the model, it was totally noticible. The flash was far excessive, and the resin was waaayyy harder than anything I've ever gotten from FW. It also released a strong chemical odor when I cut into it. It was bad enough that I felt the need to open the windows in my hobby area in the dead of winter and leave the room. Needless to say, this guy got tossed immediately.

The second model, however awful it may have been odor wise, would have been indistinguishable from the real deal after being painted.

I guess the point is, you can't really tell what's real or not on the tabletop unless you're familiar with the thing in question to begin with, and even then you may still have to know what to look for.

Smell it. Most knockoff resin reeks, and on some it can even be detectable after paint has been applied. (Especially on things where it's hard to get paint in every nook and cranny, or vehicles where there won't be paint applied to the inside, like most tanks.)

Check the heft compared to a version you know to be legit. Metal and plastic will have a different weight than resin, and even Forgeworld resin can feel different from the resins that some recasters use.

Easiest way to spot them is with a hairdryer. Place your opponent's suspected recast models under high heat for a couple minutes and see what happens. If your opponent goes nuts over the price, likely they were legitimate models. If your opponent is upset about the time spent painting, you got him. Ask where the recasts were purchased from and leave details in this thread.

Obviously you get a hammer and chisel and cut off a chip of the model to be sent off for testing.

Would rather see painted recast then another unpainted model. For the people threatening to beak people's property quit hidding behind the Internet trying to be macho.

There are few 100% reliable ways to identify a recast, you can only do it on balance of evidence, like an eBay seller shifting dozens of the same unusual casting, and general things that seem suspect. Double mould lines are no guarantee, original figures in blisters can be found with double cast lines. Colour and appearance of metal varies in genuine figures. There are always dodgy casts of legit figures, sometimes quality control isn't great. FW resin stuff is variable in quality and colour, the models I've had more recently are nothing like the stuff I had ten years ago, so I wouldn't immediately hurl stuff in the bin because it doesn't look exactly like what you expected.

Once cleaned up and painted on the table, there's no way to know. Unless they were recast in the wrong material, but you'd have to know what was and wasn't done in finecast to be sure of that, as now there are legit metal figures with and without lead in them, and in resin. Abaddon the Despoiler is available in all three.

I'd be careful before throwing around accusations, assuming you are correct, they made have bought a recast in good faith.

If the model is painted, even poorly, it would be near impossible to spot a recast. Truthfully the recasters are getting better and better. Otherwise they would not be on eBay every time you open up to search for something.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Easiest way to spot them is with a hairdryer. Place your opponent's suspected recast models under high heat for a couple minutes and see what happens. If your opponent goes nuts over the price, likely they were legitimate models. If your opponent is upset about the time spent painting, you got him. Ask where the recasts were purchased from and leave details in this thread.

Brilliant.

Beat me to recounting my own textbook recast test. If the model snaps when you drop the textbook on it, it's resin. If the model bends and then snaps, it's plastic.

All replacement models bought by the tester are recast.

beowulfhunter wrote:
Would rather see painted recast then another unpainted model. For the people threatening to beak people's property quit hidding behind the Internet trying to be macho.

Nobody's hidding, nobody's going to beak anything. These are what humans refer to as jokes.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Easiest way to spot them is with a hairdryer. Place your opponent's suspected recast models under high heat for a couple minutes and see what happens. If your opponent goes nuts over the price, likely they were legitimate models. If your opponent is upset about the time spent painting, you got him. Ask where the recasts were purchased from and leave details in this thread.

Funny.
Yes, please, I want to know where those came from, too!

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The better question is....why does it matter?

Pretty much this.



You can spot resin casts of models that were never released in resin. But other than that. Its all the same really. Just where the money went.

Just to add to the general consens here... on the tabletop, and when it's not your model and no one wants to sell them to you, it doesn't matter.

There are bad recasts, there a good recasts, there are recasts that are better than original FW stuff, there are even metal and plastic recasts.

A good recast is hard to distinguish from the real thing, once painted up it's impossible imo.

3d printed models: Depending on the printer and material, those strata lines can be cleaned up - and smoothed over. So that's more of a how-much-they-GAF-about the end product more than anything.

A lot of companies are now doing 3d printed masters, that get cleaned up and used to make the moulds from (for resin casting) for example.

Someone who KNOWS how to resin cast and with the right tools and materials, can create a duplicate that even the maker of the original cannot tell apart from their own work. This is done quite often in the SFX sector.

If you know it was ONLY EVER made in metal, but the model is clearly not so (weight is off by a lot indicating a resin copy), then it's probably a recast.
If the original was metal, and the copy was metal, then you aren't going to be able to tell without a metal analysis of the alloy used and a knowledge of which alloy the original is made from. GW themselves used several different types of WMAs over the years, leaded and lead-free.

If they have the capacity to recreate metals, then they have the tools needed to melt down older metal models and reuse them (I melt down the carcases of old metal models after I've finished carving them up for conversions, for example and reuse those ingots for my own projects.

Colour, texture, smell of the resin - NONE of these alone will be an indicator. FW has been guilty of badly mixed resin on multiple occasions (and in the old days, the resin's density and off-gassing has had it mistaken for Semtex). Polyurethane resins tend to be white - any other colour is because of an additive tint. Now the "wrong" kind of resin (FW use a PU resin, but there are also other types like acrylic resins, etc) will have a different smell and may be an indicator, but for the most part, one PU resin mixed properly will smell much like another PU resin and properly mixed is chemically stable.
If the original was a "grey" resin, but the copy is "clearish" then that's an example of a different kind of resin (the "wrong" one).

Double mould lines: GW has also been guilty of this. Inconclusive. GW QC on finecast was ***** in the early days.

Price: Also inconclusive. I've sold a genuine FW resin Valkyrie at way under cost just to be rid of it as the castings were an absolute abortion - and bought genuine FW for much less than it cost 2nd hand also.

The vendor has sold a large number of the exact same model: There's an indicator.
The vendor is in the former Soviet Union or in China: That's another indicator.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Easiest way to spot them is with a hairdryer. Place your opponent's suspected recast models under high heat for a couple minutes and see what happens. If your opponent goes nuts over the price, likely they were legitimate models. If your opponent is upset about the time spent painting, you got him. Ask where the recasts were purchased from and leave details in this thread.

Brilliant

 techsoldaten wrote:
Easiest way to spot them is with a hairdryer. Place your opponent's suspected recast models under high heat for a couple minutes and see what happens. If your opponent goes nuts over the price, likely they were legitimate models. If your opponent is upset about the time spent painting, you got him. Ask where the recasts were purchased from and leave details in this thread.

Mind if it is Finecast though. They'll droop at the slightest glance of a hairdryer.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The better question is....why does it matter?

Pretty much this.

On the tabletop at least.

I'd have, and have had, no qualms about purchasing what I knew or suspected to be recasts for my own use at a price commensurate with that fact.

People who purchase them and then try and push them on to other unsuspecting hobbyists as genuine models? I'll happily help anyone track them down and nail their genitalia to a wall (metaphorically speaking. Of course.)

In that context a better thread title would be "How do you spot a recast offered for sale?" But that's a topic already well covered for anyone who needs the info.

This may need to be covered more! I saw two recast marienburg landship recasts sell on ebay last week for £600+. I truly feel for the buyer paying this much for a $60 knockoff. regardless of the quality

What would you do about it if you found out that the army was made of recast models? Carry on playing, or end the game there and then?

 JamesY wrote:
What would you do about it if you found out that the army was made of recast models? Carry on playing, or end the game there and then?

Probably give them a thumbs up for going undetected so far. I don't care about where people get their models from (I generally try to keep mine official because I tend to go to FLGS and GW run tournaments), if someone can clean up and paint their recasts to a point at which they look like official models to close inspection then that shows a lot of commitment on their behalf.

This thread (as I said before) is just a queery made out of curiosity, I'm not gonna go on a witch hunt after this.

 JamesY wrote:
What would you do about it if you found out that the army was made of recast models? Carry on playing, or end the game there and then?

Carry on playing and then nothing. It's not your army.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
What would you do about it if you found out that the army was made of recast models? Carry on playing, or end the game there and then?

Carry on playing and then nothing. It's not your army.

100% Correct