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I've been wondering about this for a while, seeing how crude the Orks technology is during the 40k setting, how would they be during the Great Crusade? We have major battles against the Orks, especially on Ullanor, but would their tech be about the same?

I am partly wondering just because I'm curious, but also because I have some spare Orky bits and vehicles that I like to use for basing material. I want to use some of this for one of my Knights bases, as he is stepping on a Deff Dread he has smashed to bits. Since I mostly play Horus Heresy and not 40k, would this be appropriate?

Do we have any sources on what the Orks used 10 millenia ago, or do we just assume it was more or less the same as now?

The great thing about orks is their tech can be just about anywhere on the scale. Do what you want.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/the-wolf-of-ash-and-fire.html

I'm sure this short story was free at some point. It had a pretty high tech ork in it, if you can get your hands on a copy.

It's safe to believe the tech was the same, if not better. Im sure you know of that Beast Arises Series. In the series the are more or less where they are now, with the exception of giant battlemoons and rare, gravity weapons & teleportation. So as a whole it was the same thing, just with some giant boosts. Scrap weapons and vehicles, but randomly capable of teleporting entire moons and planets filled with the biggest orks ever

The thing with Orks is that they seem to become socially and technologically more complex when united under a powerful warlord, and then fall back into savagery when that warlord is killed.
We can see this developing with Ghazgull and saw in action with the Beast. Therefore, it is conceivable that the Orks would be better organised and more technologically advanced in the Ullanor crusade than they are in the 41st millennium.
(The fifth Beast Arises book comments on the fine workmanship of the Ork armour and weapons in this conflict)

In addition, the Blood Axes klan used to dominate Ork society until being dethroned in a war called 'Da Big Party'*. This could have had an impact on their technology, perhaps it was more subtle and focused in those days?
Guns being loud for the sake of it or the obsession with reckless vehicular speed could be derived from earlier Ork warlords who prized firepower and manoeuvrability.

* We don't know exactly when 'Da Big Party' took place, but it was presumably sometime in the Age of Strife given the myriad human alliances that existed then.

 alleus wrote:
I've been wondering about this for a while, seeing how crude the Orks technology is during the 40k setting, how would they be during the Great Crusade? We have major battles against the Orks, especially on Ullanor, but would their tech be about the same?

I am partly wondering just because I'm curious, but also because I have some spare Orky bits and vehicles that I like to use for basing material. I want to use some of this for one of my Knights bases, as he is stepping on a Deff Dread he has smashed to bits. Since I mostly play Horus Heresy and not 40k, would this be appropriate?

Do we have any sources on what the Orks used 10 millenia ago, or do we just assume it was more or less the same as now?

Ork technology is activated based on what they're running into. An ork mechboy sees an enemy in a tank? He'll build his own. He'll use looted vehicles if he can, but otherwise he's building a tank out of scrap. Dreadnought? He's building a killa kan first, then later a deff dread. If he sees the lads getting stomped by a titan, he'll be back with his own given enough time.

That's the thing about orks, all their tech is intrinsic and programmed into them. It generally activates based on what they need to fight. So this is how I see ork history:

1. Created as Kroork by the old ones. Top of their game, led by their literal gods, everything was working fine.
2. Something went wrong. Either the enslavers killed off everyone and the necrons went to sleep, or the old ones were wiped out followed by the Eldar and Kroork beating the Necrons until they ran away and hid.
3. With their command and control systems disrupted, the orks were defeated by the ancient Eldar Empire, and generally left in a much reduced state.
4. Humans arrive, make contact with the orks. In response to this new threat, the orks grew in power, and gained a lot of human loan words.
5. Dark Age of Technology humans stride across the galaxy like gods, between them and the Eldar orks go back to being a fringe problem.
6. Age of Strife reduces both humans and Eldar into ruined remnants, and the time of the ork comes! Orks grow in power and kick some serious 'ummie butt.
7. Golden Crusade comes along and reconquers most of the galaxy.
8. The Beast arises as an Ork response to the Golden Crusade.

The thing about "The Beast" situation, is that it appears to be a strange echo of the Great Crusade itself. I think this really highlights ork tech being activated by threats to orks at large. Orks are almost like a galactic immune system, they get stronger in the face of greater threats. Unfortunately without the Old Ones to control and lead them, a strong enough initial push can beat them before they adapt, and without an exterior threat they turn on the galaxy's native inhabitants.

Thanks for the answers everyone! I'm sure the busted Deff Dread will do just fine as basing decoration for my 30k Knight.

I think the Beast storyline is very interesting. Haven't read the books, but I did read a summary of the events. Crazy to think what the Orks can do if they unite behind a powerful Warboss. They would probably conquer the galaxy if they ever united completely and permanently. Scary thoughts!

The more and more orks coming together under a Waaaaaagh! the more and more outlandish and devastating the tek from the meks will become. A whole bunch of variables get dialed up to eleven as a Waaaaagh! reaches to epic sizes such as Ghazzy''s Waaaaagh! or legendary size such as The Beast''s Waaaaagh! The reality twisting effect of the entire galactic race united would be incomprehensible for our minds but the fluff has been very plain and simple on this fact; should the ork race ever unite they would destroy all other opposition.

 alleus wrote:
I've been wondering about this for a while, seeing how crude the Orks technology is during the 40k setting, how would they be during the Great Crusade? We have major battles against the Orks, especially on Ullanor, but would their tech be about the same?

I am partly wondering just because I'm curious, but also because I have some spare Orky bits and vehicles that I like to use for basing material. I want to use some of this for one of my Knights bases, as he is stepping on a Deff Dread he has smashed to bits. Since I mostly play Horus Heresy and not 40k, would this be appropriate?

Do we have any sources on what the Orks used 10 millenia ago, or do we just assume it was more or less the same as now?

I had idly wondered about that as well. I'm not sure if the ullanor battle, that involved most of the legions and da big E himself, was just overkill, or if they really needed that much power to fight the orks on that planet.

If the latter, you have to wonder what kind of waaaaagh they had going on.

But between that and the beast arises books, it really seems like ork tek isn't anything like it used to be, least not as good. I mean, in the fluff it references many times ork tellyportin armies (and planets) and gravity-based weapons. What we have in-game are tellyport blastas and lifta droppas, both of which are rather lackluster.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
But between that and the beast arises books, it really seems like ork tek isn't anything like it used to be, least not as good. I mean, in the fluff it references many times ork tellyportin armies (and planets) and gravity-based weapons. What we have in-game are tellyport blastas and lifta droppas, both of which are rather lackluster.

While AFAIK the orks haven't yet climbed back to the point they were at under The Great Beast in TBA, they still use pretty advanced teleportation and gravity-based weapons, we just don't see them on the tabletop. There are stories of them in the fluff, but I think they're more often based out of starships and buildings, so they wouldn't as often been seen in regular 40k. Lifta-droppas, tellyporta blastas and shokk attack gunz are just small scale implementations that can be easily moved. The use of more advanced teleportation comes into play as special rules, like the deep strike formation from 7th edition. (This is just my understanding of things, I could be wrong.)

But yeah, no attack moons currently that I know of. Those attack moons were awesome.

Currently they just have Roks and Hulks as their "large scale" vessels. But "Orkimedes" is generating ever fancier guns and gear all the time. Like, for the Piscina IV campaign the tellyportas were massively inaccurate and needed a corresponding ground station to be set up if you didn’t want your Boyz ending up in the nearest volcano or fused half into the ground or whatever.
But this has since been fixed and tellyport strikes are accurate and safe, even across interplanetary distances.
So battle moons might not be so far off….

I may be recalling wrong, but I think The Beast refers to the Orks at Ullanor being fairly low tech, mostly a threat due to numbers and a strong leader.

I may be remembering the lore wrong, as I can't think where I read all this from, but I recall that all Orks are essentially psychic, and they're all linked by a low-level psychic field (which might be what was behind mob rule, and is certainly why Weirdboys get their current rules).

Also, Ork technology doesn't work because it's well built, but instead it works because the Orks using it believe that it will work - another aspect of their psychic nature? So if I Big Mek makes a big show of a new huge tellyporter-gravity-blasta-gun, then it will work because he and his followers all believe that it will.

This ties in with what someone said earlier, about how Orks progress due to what they see. If they see a dreadnought stomping by, then a Mek will get some scrap together and build his own out of bitz. And it'll work, cos he believes that's all it needs.

So as Orks see more advanced technology, they then emulate it.

I'm not sure I've heard of anything where Orks had things more advanced than other races... Their ability to teleport ships etc may have happened because a Mek saw the Eldar using a webway portal, and thought they just disappeared to come back elsewhere, and then thought to make a machine that did that... and so built a teleporter that didn't even need the webway, because he didn't know that you *need* a webway to do that.

Ignorance is bliss.

(nb. I am pretty tired writing this, but I think it's largely based on bits and pieces of fluff... Orks essentially being psychic fungus.)

Niiru wrote:
I may be remembering the lore wrong, as I can't think where I read all this from, but I recall that all Orks are essentially psychic, and they're all linked by a low-level psychic field (which might be what was behind mob rule, and is certainly why Weirdboys get their current rules).

Also, Ork technology doesn't work because it's well built, but instead it works because the Orks using it believe that it will work - another aspect of their psychic nature? So if I Big Mek makes a big show of a new huge tellyporter-gravity-blasta-gun, then it will work because he and his followers all believe that it will.

This ties in with what someone said earlier, about how Orks progress due to what they see. If they see a dreadnought stomping by, then a Mek will get some scrap together and build his own out of bitz. And it'll work, cos he believes that's all it needs.

So as Orks see more advanced technology, they then emulate it.

I'm not sure I've heard of anything where Orks had things more advanced than other races... Their ability to teleport ships etc may have happened because a Mek saw the Eldar using a webway portal, and thought they just disappeared to come back elsewhere, and then thought to make a machine that did that... and so built a teleporter that didn't even need the webway, because he didn't know that you *need* a webway to do that.

Ignorance is bliss.

(nb. I am pretty tired writing this, but I think it's largely based on bits and pieces of fluff... Orks essentially being psychic fungus.)

Possibly.

That particular piece of fluff finds its origins in Xenology where it's the in-universe explanation a Tech Priest has for how Ork tech works, and has been repeated ad nauseum as truth.

It's equally likely that it's complete fabrication of a Tech Priest that hasn't the faintest idea what he's looking at and a lingering stigma against Orks actually being intelligent leading him to conclude any mental theory other than 'Orks actually built something that works, even though it looks ramshackle'.

Or it could be the psychic gestalt thing. I'd like it if both are a genuine possibility so people can choose which they prefer

Personally, I like the idea that Orks basically sit down with a pile of bits and absent-mindedly bolt it all together based on 'this gubbinz feels right if I connect it to this widget' and end up with a tellyport blasta. The Dread thing could be a case of genuine inspiration using their hard-coded subconscious understanding of physics and mechanics to make something one Mekboy saw clanking around the battlefield and thought 'neat I want one'.

The reason I like it to be vague and not clear which is true is so that I can go on believing that and if you prefer the idea of a psychic gestalt making non-functional weapons actually work then you can believe that too and both are equally valid

I've always liked the idea of it being both, personally.

So for example, an Ork power plant would have a conductor attached to it that should, by all means, discharge half of its energy onto a nearby girder sticking out if you applied the normal laws of electricity. But because the Orks believe it should be working, the power doesn't jump across and earth itself, but rather flows along the conductor in the way it needs to for the device to keep working. Alternatively, an ork gun's loading chamber mechanism is somewhat wonkily constructed, and should really jam up when you fire it. Yet the belief of the Ork means that a one in a thirty chance of the mechanism operating smoothly happens every time.

It's a bit like how if you paint red on something it goes faster. Painting red on a rock won't make it move no matter how many Orks believe it, but but slap it on a vehicle and it gives an incremental increase.


In other words, what the Ork's belief does is make something operate slightly outside the normal laws of physics and chance. Not vastly, their guns don't manifest bullets out of the warp purely because they think it should. But small technical failures or slight bendings of the laws of physics that would be make a machine inoperable for other races simply don't happen for Orks. This means that their internally programmed knowledge of mechanics only has to be rough, as opposed to an exact science; the gestalt field in effect irons out the kinks that an Ork's less than conscious grasp of science would cause.

Leastways, that's my way of balancing it so that both concepts are true. It leaves the Techpriests goggling because stuff technically shouldn't work, or should work badly, but it means that what the Orks choose to build isn't entirely divorced from the laws of reality.

The way I see it is that the gestalt field doesn't change the function of anything in it, but rather the efficacy and quality as Ketara explains. Ramshackle weapons work relatively smoothly, simple warbikes keep pace with their imperial equivalents, and blue mega-armor deflects bullets like a forcefield.

Yeah by leaving both options open it lets both your and my interpretations of it coexist your'greasing the wheels of physics' and my more hard-line interpretation: red paint doesn't make a trukk go faster, but Orks will habitually paint trukks that go faster in red and/or put more effort into making them faster, similar to how driving a red car makes you more likely to get pulled over for speeding

It doesn't even need to be 'both things are slightly true'. It vould equally be 'one is 100% true, we just don't know which' amd the effect is the same

Consider this: orks and elder have similar origins.

(craftworld) Eldar technology is psychically activated, in other words the wielder has to 'think' it into working.

Ork tech also 'works' because they 'think' it works, and from a certain perspective that also makes it psychically operated.

It's kind of an easter egg link between the two races that share a common origin!

Another point against ork tech purely working via psychic gestalt is the fact that humans can operate it, even if it takes a lot more effort. For instance in the Gaunts Ghosts novels, there is a short story that involves the Commissar and a comrade getting stuck behind Ork lines on an iceworld. They end up having to escape by using an ork buggy or wartruck. They both manage to operate it, but it's a major effort because there's no power steering or brakes and the vehicle was designed for something with brute strength rivaling a space marine. Think it even had hand brakes lol.

Also a note on more modern orky tech, the devices they invent in the Siege of Castellax novel are quite impressive, and catch the Iron Warriors by surprise time and again. Especially the giant turbolaser gun/train lol, that would be a good book to look at!

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Personally, I like the idea that Orks basically sit down with a pile of bits and absent-mindedly bolt it all together based on 'this gubbinz feels right if I connect it to this widget' and end up with a tellyport blasta. The Dread thing could be a case of genuine inspiration using their hard-coded subconscious understanding of physics and mechanics to make something one Mekboy saw clanking around the battlefield and thought 'neat I want one'.

Looks like Guy Haley loves similar approach as in Sanctus Reach 'Evil Sun Rising' novel :

‘Course the reactor’s hot, it’s a self-contained, self-sustaining fusion reaction,’ said Bozgat, in that strange, oddboy way meks had when they spoke a load of old jabber they didn’t understand. He farted loudly. When he spoke again, the dreaminess had left his voice

‘Reactor’s up to ninety per cent of tolerance, boss,’ said Bozgat.
‘Caution must be taken when interfacing ionic technologies, especially those that originate with alien species whose consciousness wavelengths are incompatible with the psychically motivated etheric generators of the krork,’ said Talker.
‘Shut your jabber,’ said Bozgat aggressively, before tweaking a few knobs and closing a few valves on it anyway. The reactor calmed down.
‘Wibble,’ said Talker.

My personal head canon is that while there is some experimentation by the Meks, a lot of what the Orks build is instinctually copied tech of races they fight, and when they do it enough it gets written into the race's ancestral memory.

This is why so much of their tech is human-like. Because as the other most numerous race in the galaxy, the Orks have been fighting them the most.

... So pretty much the same.

Ork see, Ork do. If Orks see different tech they will have different ideas about how tech should work, so their tech will work differently. If space marines use a ray gun instead of bolters, the mechs will make ray guns instead and they will work how the orks expect them to.

chyron wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Personally, I like the idea that Orks basically sit down with a pile of bits and absent-mindedly bolt it all together based on 'this gubbinz feels right if I connect it to this widget' and end up with a tellyport blasta. The Dread thing could be a case of genuine inspiration using their hard-coded subconscious understanding of physics and mechanics to make something one Mekboy saw clanking around the battlefield and thought 'neat I want one'.

Looks like Guy Haley loves similar approach as in Sanctus Reach 'Evil Sun Rising' novel :

‘Course the reactor’s hot, it’s a self-contained, self-sustaining fusion reaction,’ said Bozgat, in that strange, oddboy way meks had when they spoke a load of old jabber they didn’t understand. He farted loudly. When he spoke again, the dreaminess had left his voice

‘Reactor’s up to ninety per cent of tolerance, boss,’ said Bozgat.
‘Caution must be taken when interfacing ionic technologies, especially those that originate with alien species whose consciousness wavelengths are incompatible with the psychically motivated etheric generators of the krork,’ said Talker.
‘Shut your jabber,’ said Bozgat aggressively, before tweaking a few knobs and closing a few valves on it anyway. The reactor calmed down.
‘Wibble,’ said Talker.

Haha that's brilliant perfect representation of how hard-coded genetic information would manifest

The other way I was thinking is that it might not even be conscious enough for them ever to explain it. Something like a Mek would need to build a reactor and instinctively put together a fusion reactor. When questioned about how he made it, how he worked out the specifics calculations to maintain such a volatile reaction in a stable state or how he even knew where to start he'd both be unable to explain any of that and also slightly puzzled as to why anyone would need to work all of that out to make a reactor. As far as he's concerned, you just think about something and make it. It's blindingly obvious where everything needs to go.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

The other way I was thinking is that it might not even be conscious enough for them ever to explain it. Something like a Mek would need to build a reactor and instinctively put together a fusion reactor. When questioned about how he made it, how he worked out the specifics calculations to maintain such a volatile reaction in a stable state or how he even knew where to start he'd both be unable to explain any of that and also slightly puzzled as to why anyone would need to work all of that out to make a reactor. As far as he's concerned, you just think about something and make it. It's blindingly obvious where everything needs to go.

Bein' mek it's a kind of split personality disorder, with 'orky' personality ruling most of the time but with tech ready to take over any moment - but they do overlap a lot, though some things definitely too complex outside meky satori state.

Uggrim’s mind was highly compartmentalised. On the one hand he was an ork, possessed of and possessed by all the unthinking rage that suggests. But the other part of his brain brimmed over with inherited knowledge, some of which was so complex it would have kept the assembled priesthood of a forge world occupied for a generation or two. As his subkind had been made to react in such situations so many aeons before, this part kicked in and took over, pushing his roaring orky aggression aside. He wanted to kill, but before he could kill, he had to fix. The red mist receded from his vision. Diagrams and charts and rotating schematics spilled dizzyingly into his mind’s eye, and his innate technical know-how spilled in its turn out from his fanged mouth.

PS AFAIK ESR is the ONLY BL book(inc. accompanying shorts/audio) with advanced Orks as protagonists, so - must read for a lot of insight.

What's the full name of that book?

"Sanctus Reach : Evil Sun Rising" enovella by Guy Haley

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/sanctus-reach-evil-sun-rising-ebook.html

Orks don't copy. They have been around for 60 millon years and have expanded throuout the entire galaxy. Their technology is based on the knowledge the Old Ones inscribed into ork genes. Contrary to the Mechanicus Orcs know the basic principles of mechanics, chemistry and physics at a subconscious level and are able to build anything because of that.

 hordrak wrote:
Orks don't copy. They have been around for 60 millon years and have expanded throuout the entire galaxy. Their technology is based on the knowledge the Old Ones inscribed into ork genes. Contrary to the Mechanicus Orcs know the basic principles of mechanics, chemistry and physics at a subconscious level and are able to build anything because of that.

Thats both true and false, Orks copy all the time, through seeing something they instinctively know how to build one due to the genetic information, tis why orks are awesome.

 hordrak wrote:
Orks don't copy. They have been around for 60 millon years and have expanded throuout the entire galaxy. Their technology is based on the knowledge the Old Ones inscribed into ork genes. Contrary to the Mechanicus Orcs know the basic principles of mechanics, chemistry and physics at a subconscious level and are able to build anything because of that.

IMO most of time they're like guy who had local copy of several How-tos,archives and software library sites - HUGE quantity of info stored without even knowing what it's for unless they need to look for something. After finding and using knowledge first several times they know 't'is iz 'ere' and can plan to use it again,even gaining grasp of how and why - but AM or EarthCaste Tau are better in knowing what they know all the time.

PS Tech and psychic gestalt...well, there's other explanation beyond 'directly reinforced by psi magic' : if gestalt manifests in even dimwit boy knowing that 'this piece must be positioned exactly 36.275 degrees to other despite it' slot being crudely made and without mechanical fixation - or THIS shoota will blow right away, while it's twin requires 35.91 degrees', then from AM (and other 'proper' mass-produced technology user) POV it is 'gestalt' that helds this piece of junk together - while in reality it's ork fingers, rust and piece of roasted squig bone.
As for ramshacle appearance...i always remember tale of prof. Wood making large ?telescope?(could be refractometer ) tube from off-the-shelf concrete sewer pipes - 'outside it looked like arthritic snake...but inside it was as straight as gun barrel'.

chyron wrote:

 hordrak wrote:
Orks don't copy. They have been around for 60 millon years and have expanded throuout the entire galaxy. Their technology is based on the knowledge the Old Ones inscribed into ork genes. Contrary to the Mechanicus Orcs know the basic principles of mechanics, chemistry and physics at a subconscious level and are able to build anything because of that.

IMO most of time they're like guy who had local copy of several How-tos,archives and software library sites - HUGE quantity of info stored without even knowing what it's for unless they need to look for something. After finding and using knowledge first several times they know 't'is iz 'ere' and can plan to use it again,even gaining grasp of how and why - but AM or EarthCaste Tau are better in knowing what they know all the time.

PS Tech and psychic gestalt...well, there's other explanation beyond 'directly reinforced by psi magic' : if gestalt manifests in even dimwit boy knowing that 'this piece must be positioned exactly 36.275 degrees to other despite it' slot being crudely made and without mechanical fixation - or THIS shoota will blow right away, while it's twin requires 35.91 degrees', then from AM (and other 'proper' mass-produced technology user) POV it is 'gestalt' that helds this piece of junk together - while in reality it's ork fingers, rust and piece of roasted squig bone.
As for ramshacle appearance...i always remember tale of prof. Wood making large ?telescope?(could be refractometer ) tube from off-the-shelf concrete sewer pipes - 'outside it looked like arthritic snake...but inside it was as straight as gun barrel'.

Yeah I love the PS example you've given there

I was thinking how cool it would be for Orks to have an instinctive knowledge or tolerances and machining, and be able to replicate it with basic equipment. Something like 'See, dis spinny fing goes in 'ere like dis' *promptly and effortlessly machines bearing to the exact right diameter 'Yeah das right I fink...'

Evidently it's not foolproof otherwise their weapons wouldn't be unreliable, but it's a neat idea

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

I was thinking how cool it would be for Orks to have an instinctive knowledge or tolerances and machining, and be able to replicate it with basic equipment. Something like 'See, dis spinny fing goes in 'ere like dis' *promptly and effortlessly machines bearing to the exact right diameter 'Yeah das right I fink...'
Evidently it's not foolproof otherwise their weapons wouldn't be unreliable, but it's a neat idea

I think more along lines of 'See, 'eres klever way to meshur dat. Gutzbak. gimme wire, 'iece of tar and fire! Huh?!..Pheeew!!! Hah! Grot - lathe 'til tachin' 'is!", not of Mekz bein' living CNC machines.
And for this is 'remembering' sh!tload of know-hows/tricks or/and ability to construct them from 'general theoretical knowledge' is pretty helpful. Meks are Orks , savage but resourceful individualist brutes with STC computers in brain - not some goddamed Motee Engineers.