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So this is mostly against the Prequels.

Specifically, it's mentioned that a trait of Anakin, and possibly Jedi as a whole is an ability to see things before they happen, a sort of instinctive precognition.

And that's what makes a Jedi so deadly at close quarters. They know what you're going to do before you do it. Of course, that's true of any master of close combat. Your stance and balance tell tales, and they can take advantage. But Jedi can do that to the nth degree.

So how come, when they're in Starfighters, they still do a relative 'spray and pray', even against mindless automata such a Vulture Droids and Droid Tri-Fighters? If you could see or sense where the enemy is going to be in a second or so's time, surely you'd save your power to only depress the trigger when your instinct says they're about to cross your twelve? Therefore, every volley would be a killshot.

Now I'm not extending that to 'how come Republic forces didn't have absolutely air superiority at all times', because that's silly. Jedi were a precious and incredibly finite resource, so even though a couple in their fighters could wreak untold havoc on enemy air forces, you typically didn't have a couple of Jedi to spare for such trifling affairs when you've got disposable Clones to flood the skies with.

But particularly Anakin and Obi-Wan's approach to Dooku's ship in Revenge of the Sith.....why no every shot a kill shot? Surely that would only add to the 'Jedi were absolutely rock hard, because land, sea or sky, they'll bray, chin and knack you' mythos, and why Palpatine took such care to ensure when he made his move, it was from such an unexpected angle, not to mention took such pains to paint the Jedi not as peacekeepers, but War Mongers who saw their influence increase due to the conflict?

Perhaps they needed to force the droids to act or react in accordance with the best future..by shooting around them.

To elaborate further.....

We've all seen Jedi being absolute filth on the ground. Shots are dodged or deflected - sometimes right back the gunner.

Unless it's an absolute clusterfeth such as Geonosis (where one could argue the selfless teachings of the Jedi order and sheer volume of fire combined to see some Jedi off this mortal plane), there's no stopping them unless you happen to have a Force user on your side (which I see as effectively nullifying each other's Force advantage, but an advantage to Darkside devotees in account they'll likely have fought other Force users, which at the time of the Clone Wars the Jedi just didn't have. Interesting thought, deserves a thread of its own!) in which case you can attract their attention, freeing up your grunts to get on with the job at hand.

And again, Force competent assailant vs Spods is writ large in the frankly awesome 'Thirty Seconds of Fun with Lord Vader' seen in Rogue One. The poor Navy spods had very little chance. Had they not hesitated (something I'm willing to put down to Force manipulation as much as 'OoooooooooooooooooohFUCK! It's Vader!) and simply done the old 'spray and pray', they could've, possibly, marginally more than the actual result, held out and possibly jobbed Vader. But regardless - that's what happens when a trained Force user gets their Ming on...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Perhaps they needed to force the droids to act or react in accordance with the best future..by shooting around them.

Nah. Pretty much Bushido, but for Jedi. Everyone knows Force predictions aren't 100% accurate. But as I mentioned in the post that followed this one, that didn't stop them on the ground (which also goes to so soulless, emotionless opponents with no connection to the living force is no hindrance, on account they regularly beat the snot out of Droid armies, and typically without breaking a sweat.

Geonosis proved that weight of fire could overcome a Jedi's skill.

As for your intial question.... I have no idea. Rule of Cool I guess.

A major - albeit largely implicit - theme of the prequels is that Jedi of that era had a much higher opinion of themselves than warranted by reality.

For example, what qualifies Jedi to command armies? They are some kind of weird Buddhist monks. And yet they don't seem to question being put in charge. Of course they don't - they think they are so important and wonderful, why wouldn't they automatically be the generals?

(As an aside, this was another brilliant move by Palpatine: distract and co-opt the Jedi order into war effort, allow them to have sufficient victories to maintain the illusion that they are effective commanders, allow them to piss off the clone troopers they command by being cold, smug buttholes all the time, position Jedi perfectly for efficient purge.)

So anyhow, I don't think Jedi are as good at what they do as all the hype would suggest, whether that is commanding an army, flying a starfighter, finding a Sith Lord, or even just being friends with someone.

Additionally, we do know they start practicing with lightsabers as toddlers. By contrast, we never saw anyone attend a military logistics course or use a flight simulator.

When it comes to open war, Jedi are indeed ponk.

But you answered your own question by addressing Palpatine's manipulation.

Put a Jedi against say a war monger or Criminal Masterminds best, and there's likely one outcome - Jedi wins.

But, force the entire order to lead a war? Suddenly Jedi start dying. And any failures fall on their shoulders. That was Palpatine's master stroke



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Clarification on account I've had seven pints,

As peace keepers the Jedi were highly effective. When it came to 'aggressive negotiations' they had an absolute upper hand.

Not only were they highly competent fighters, but to attack the Jedi wasn't wise. Questions would be raised in the senate, leading to further opposition.

But they were never intended to be, and never aimed to be, Generals of armies. That was never their bag.

We're diverging from the OP. Given we've repeatedly seen Jedi being utterly deadly in close quarters with nary an effort wasted, how come they were middling at best in starfighter combat? They were highly accomplished pilots with an edge over all but the most talented non-force pilots, let alone Droids. Yet when it came to spearheading a fighter assault, they still went to Spray and Pray.

Now I think of it, Vader's performance in the Rebels season 1/2 bridging tale shows how they should've worked in space. Vader simply takes the Rebels (veteran pilots all) apart with a skill they can scarcely believe, let alone counter.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But you answered your own question

Wait what was my own question?

I was answering your question.

To rephrase, there is no liquidity of skill as between melee combat and starfighter combat. Jedi practice from a very young age to mess around with light swords. The same apparently cannot be said for a wide range of other activities, including starfighter piloting and basic empathy.

According to Obi-Wan in ANH, Anakain was an exceptionally good pilot by the time Obi-Wan met him. In TPM, we see this is true: he's already a talented podracer when Qui-Gon meets him. Doesn't seem to have to do with his Jedi training.

There are probably several reasons but the main one that explains it is this: the prequels are terrible and inconsistent.

Uh I don't think MDG's observation about Jedi being mediocre starfighter pilots is limited to the PT.

Their powers were expanded on in the old canon and that expansion was referenced in the new canon enough that I think it still applies. Jedi don't have a precognition in the sense that they know what's going to happen. Their powers of precog come from two areas, their movements guided by the Force and a dangersense.

In a starfighter, danger is all around them at all times and to focus on that means to pull focus from everything else. Same as when they're being guided by the Force. If they let themself go and ride the Force in the same way they do to deflect laser bolts, they're vulnerable to the endless danger that could snuff them out in an instant.

Vader and a handful of others prove they're many steps ahead of the normal game but run of the mill Jedi and Jedi Masters like Corran Horn, Saesii Tin, Adi Gallia, Jaina Solo (spelling mistakes I'm sure there), all rely on their native instincts and dangersense more than releasing themselves to the Force. They're pilots with super advanced sensors. Note that when Luke gave himself to the Force in a New Hope, he was defenseless while his entire focus was on making the impossible shot.

Most aren't qualified to lead armies. I believe that is the point. Putting them in that position does two things: it allows for them to be more significant targets for enemy forces and allows for Order 66 to be carried out effectively.

The best use for most Jedi would probably be in the form of Special Ops teams/squads of up to 10-12 Jedi conducting covert operations. However, in that scenario they are significantly harder to kill with Order 66 both because it'll be harder to take down a dozen Jedi at once and they may be conducting operations far from any Clone Troopers at the time the order is given.

Theoretically, some Jedi could be good generals if they have extensive skill with premonitions and can constantly be several moves ahead of an enemy force. Clearly, that wouldn't be all of them and even then, that ability would be severely diminished do to the Fog of War from Palpatine.

Part of why Palps was able to do a Fog of War on the Jedi, was because in New Canon, the Jedi Temple is built on a Force Nexus.

The Force Nexus, had a Sith Shrine built on it, which the Jedi built over. The Shrine corrupted the Nexus slowly and clouded the Jedi with out them being aware.

True story.

Makes the Jedi out to be bigger idiots.

Was there also a nexus on Jakku?

No idea, I think it was just an Imperial Outpost that they decided to gather the fleet at. And then the Empire decided to be dumb and lose the fleet.

I think it's because Jedi are better than average pilots but they are not omniscient. Plus, as others said, their focus was on 1v1 duels rather than starfighter combat. Their powers may not have been as effective out in space where there are many more variables to sense.

An easy explanation is that a jedi has less direct control over their starfighter's guns. A lightsaber is held directly in their hand, and becomes an extension of their body. But with a fighter control inputs go through the ship's computers and engines, vibration bounces the guns around in unpredictable ways, etc. And the target is far off in the distance, where even a very tiny error in aim results in a miss. Even a very good shot is going to fire bursts at a target hoping to hit with at least something.

 Manchu wrote:
Uh I don't think MDG's observation about Jedi being mediocre starfighter pilots is limited to the PT.

Perhaps but it does explain why they are terrible about it in the prequels, what with them being terrible and inconsistent.

Though I am also reminded of when Grant Morrison* talked about kids being better at stories than adults as when you tell a kid that Superman flies they go with it because he does whereas adults try apply physics and reality to it. In this instance the Force works as a story concept with a hefty dose of handwavium and rule of cool. Trying to make a fictional square fit into a real circle doesn't really work.


*I believe it was Morrison but not 100% sure. It was some writer.

Was the "Jedi precognition" one of those odd EU things to "explain" how Jedi could dodge blaster bolts?

The Force is a energy field that powers and is powered by life, yes?
So I have no issue with Jedi in Star fighters having a less easy time predicting the actions of none living Droids. They not only have to deal with their enemy, but the control of their vehicle, which is neither a part of them, nor living itself.

On their fleet is a different matter as they are trained to fight like that from the start and can rely on other skills to predict the algorithmic actions of an army of Droids also on foot.

It's all about the level of "separation" from the living Force.

-

 Galef wrote:
The Force is a energy field that powers and is powered by life, yes?
So I have no issue with Jedi in Star fighters having a less easy time predicting the actions of none living Droids. They not only have to deal with their enemy, but the control of their vehicle, which is neither a part of them, nor living itself.

On their fleet is a different matter as they are trained to fight like that from the start and can rely on other skills to predict the algorithmic actions of an army of Droids also on foot.

It's all about the level of "separation" from the living Force.

-

Then that should be true as well vs droids on foot.

Ahtman -

Yes, that was Grant Morrison. Reminds me also of the time where a fan asked him how old Batman and Robin were because of continuity issues and he responded, basically, that they're not real people. Kind of like the old "how do you kill a vampire" trick question. But I think you're right that even fiction, and even fantastical fiction, requires some level of consistency. When you portray characters as hyper competent ... until they're not ... the audience is bound to wonder if it's not just hamhanded writing, (Looking at you, Rogue One.)

 Manchu wrote:
Ahtman -

Yes, that was Grant Morrison. Reminds me also of the time where a fan asked him how old Batman and Robin were because of continuity issues and he responded, basically, that they're not real people. Kind of like the old "how do you kill a vampire" trick question. But I think you're right that even fiction, and even fantastical fiction, requires some level of consistency. When you portray characters as hyper competent ... until they're not ... the audience is bound to wonder if it's not just hamhanded writing, (Looking at you, Rogue One.)

Can you elaborate on the Rogue One criticism? I'd like to hear your take as to who/m you take issue with in the film.

It is probably too off of the topic to hand to get into the thin characterization but we can stick with the consistency issues. For example, when Ip Man is introduced he is capable of taking on a squad or more of stormies singlehanded. Yet instead of fighting the Stormies at the end, he has to slowly walk to the Plot Device to demonstrate his faith (?) in the force. But he gets shot anyway, after he (de)activates the Plot Device. Similarly, Jyn easily one shots a K-series droid on Jeddha. It is less than no threat to her. But K-2SO single-handedly takes down a whole platoon of Stormies later on. I get that K-2SO is a protagonist (and therefore he has class levels, unlike a NPC - to put it in RPG terms) but his super powers are not established until - surprise, surprise - right at that moment. (Also jeez, why use stormtroopers at all when K-series droids are capable of becoming such murder machines.)

 Manchu wrote:
It is probably too off of the topic to hand to get into the thin characterization but we can stick with the consistency issues. For example, when Ip Man is introduced he is capable of taking on a squad or more of stormies singlehanded. Yet instead of fighting the Stormies at the end, he has to slowly walk to the Plot Device to demonstrate his faith (?) in the force. But he gets shot anyway, after he (de)activates the Plot Device. Similarly, Jyn easily one shots a K-series droid on Jeddha. It is less than no threat to her. But K-2SO single-handedly takes down a whole platoon of Stormies later on. I get that K-2SO is a protagonist (and therefore he has class levels, unlike a NPC - to put it in RPG terms) but his super powers are not established until - surprise, surprise - right at that moment. (Also jeez, why use stormtroopers at all when K-series droids are capable of becoming such murder machines.)

You are missing the hierarchy of danger.

Protagonist>Elite Goon>Regular Goon.

Storm troopers get beat up by a guy who is later killed by death troopers. Death troopers struggle to take down a droid who is easily one-shoot by the protagonist.

 Manchu wrote:
It is probably too off of the topic to hand to get into the thin characterization but we can stick with the consistency issues. For example, when Ip Man is introduced he is capable of taking on a squad or more of stormies singlehanded. Yet instead of fighting the Stormies at the end, he has to slowly walk to the Plot Device to demonstrate his faith (?) in the force. But he gets shot anyway, after he (de)activates the Plot Device. Similarly, Jyn easily one shots a K-series droid on Jeddha. It is less than no threat to her. But K-2SO single-handedly takes down a whole platoon of Stormies later on. I get that K-2SO is a protagonist (and therefore he has class levels, unlike a NPC - to put it in RPG terms) but his super powers are not established until - surprise, surprise - right at that moment. (Also jeez, why use stormtroopers at all when K-series droids are capable of becoming such murder machines.)

The Donnie Yen one is perspective. I can see how'd you see it that way. But K-2S0 showed his potential on Jedha when he snagged a grenade out of the air and casually chucked into a group of Stormtroopers behind him while sarcastically berating Jyn and Captain Mustache.

Biggest inconsitency of all in R1 is the Empire is portrayed as dangerous but basically never dangerous unless/until the script has run out of things for one of the tissue paper protagonists to do. Even Jyn's mom gets the drop on Death Troopers in the opening sequence. Vader's death bonanza, let's not forget, is just a scene of him failing. If the K-series droids are so capable, why not have a legion of them? Oh because they are only capable when they are protagonists. Why not have a whole squad of Rebel K-series droids then? Oh because then no reason for Chinese actors.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

So how come, when they're in Starfighters, they still do a relative 'spray and pray', even against mindless automata such a Vulture Droids and Droid Tri-Fighters? If you could see or sense where the enemy is going to be in a second or so's time, surely you'd save your power to only depress the trigger when your instinct says they're about to cross your twelve? Therefore, every volley would be a killshot.

You seem to assume a greater degree of control over the vehicle and its weaponry than they are necessarily capable of. You still have to contend with issues of accuracy and relative positioning, etc. as well as the fact that you're traveling a few hundred/thousands of miles per hour... (and therefore the slight degree of precognition they may have is significantly less useful). Just because you can instinctively sense what will happen a few brief moments into the future doesn't mean you can accurately put a blaster bolt into the exact volume of space needed to score a direct hit.

 Manchu wrote:
Biggest inconsitency of all in R1 is the Empire is portrayed as dangerous but basically never dangerous unless/until the script has run out of things for one of the tissue paper protagonists to do. Even Jyn's mom gets the drop on Death Troopers in the opening sequence. Vader's death bonanza, let's not forget, is just a scene of him failing. If the K-series droids are so capable, why not have a legion of them? Oh because they are only capable when they are protagonists. Why not have a whole squad of Rebel K-series droids then? Oh because then no reason for Chinese actors.

As if the rest of the Star Wars IP is any more consistent?

 Manchu wrote:
Biggest inconsitency of all in R1 is the Empire is portrayed as dangerous but basically never dangerous unless/until the script has run out of things for one of the tissue paper protagonists to do. Even Jyn's mom gets the drop on Death Troopers in the opening sequence. Vader's death bonanza, let's not forget, is just a scene of him failing. If the K-series droids are so capable, why not have a legion of them? Oh because they are only capable when they are protagonists. Why not have a whole squad of Rebel K-series droids then? Oh because then no reason for Chinese actors.

Biggest Inconsistency of R1 is the first half vs second half - first half is disjointed, badly put together and full of stupidity - the second half is pure Star Wars fun.

First half has such gems as -"Right we need to capture this family alive - so you want us to set our guns to stun right? Nah - you are a death squad you don't get stun settings, Shrugs, Ok right you are boss"

I assumed that the K series robot is a Hero bot - but of course the Rebel Alliance, like the Republic don't consider them sentient (?) and like slavery happy for it to go on - as the enlightened people they are....

The Jedi's relationship with weapons in the prequels and EU is bananas anyway. You see the light saber being used in the original trilogy as personal protection. It's there for when Ponda Baba gets rowdy, it's for when you get arrested by corrupt authorities, then castrated and tarred and feathered by local thugs. The entire point of a light saber is that it is really useful when someone is actually about to lay hands on the Jedi. The main strategy of a Jedi is that they'll go try to talk Darth Vader out of being evil. You'd expect their main activity to be moving among the people and the halls of power, exonerating falsely accused and convincing the president to not back down / back down in whatever crisis.

If they are going to actual combat against storm troopers, they can bring a gun. Luke, I know he wasn't a Jedi, brought a gun to Bespin. The force users in R1 apparently expected some kind of political violence, so they employed a professional guard with a minigun. Obviously they don't do this because they are not an army and are super outnumbered but like... the Jedi in the prequels do fight these massive ground battles by themselves and like... in that case they would probably need guns because the light sabers everywhere thing is a pretty poor cinematic choice.


Then the Jedi temple on corruscant is a large corporate board room and training facility, just like any other force-blunt organization. You could expect that it would be like the dark side cave on dagobah. It's a giant solid structure and when you open the door there is just a brick wall, but when you touch it it turns into a Lady of Guadeloupe and the next ten minutes are child-friendly cut of Eraserhead. It could at least be a giant series of physically impossible challenges like a water temple from Zelda.

The thing where they aren't amazing at dogfighting is a also true, I suppose.