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One huge weakness of orks has always been our BS of 5+. This is usually countered with the idea of "well orks have a lot of shots so it's fine." However, this means pretty much no one is going to bother putting individual specialist weapons in boyz squads, as you're only going to be hitting 1/3rd of the time with that expensive specialist weapon. It also means units like the Morkanuat heavily suffer because while they're loaded to the brim with plasma and a handful of rockets, they'll only score a handful of shots from a 300 point model that's supposed to be good at shooting. Bottom line is, we're not good at shooting.

The dakkajet has a rule that reads "if this model fires all of its supa-shootas at a single target, add +1 to all of its to hit rolls. Why not give this to all orks? It stays fluffy with the idea of just saturating the air with bullets, and actually gives some serious threat to units like tankbustas, morkanauts, or adding rokkets to kommandoes and the like. This rule also means we're still the worst shots in the game, as we lose this +1 to hit if we split fire. It actually gives ork shooting some bite while still preventing us from being actually decent at shooting.

I'd be fine with it. If, everything is costed appropriately to match. No idea what prices are like now, but if it's like the Cron index you should get that and a points decrease.

FireSkullz2 wrote:
I'd be fine with it. If, everything is costed appropriately to match. No idea what prices are like now, but if it's like the Cron index you should get that and a points decrease.

The weapons are massively over priced (in total about Morkanaut is 370 pts). So a points reduction and this rule would work well to buff everyone.

You might as well just give all Orks BS4+ at that point. With BS5+ you aren't going to be using the universal spitfire in the first place, because you need the weight of fire to actually hit the target.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You might as well just give all Orks BS4+ at that point. With BS5+ you aren't going to be using the universal spitfire in the first place, because you need the weight of fire to actually hit the target.

That's sort of the point. Orks aren't supposed to be able to shoot accurately- they're too impatient for that. They gun things down with sheer weight of fire. This rule emulates that pretty well.

So how many points would you want your Orks to increase in return for their +50% shooting effectiveness? +25% points to each ork? Is that desirable?

 ph34r wrote:
So how many points would you want your Orks to increase in return for their +50% shooting effectiveness? +25% points to each ork? Is that desirable?

For the sake of keeping footslogging boyz cheap, I'd probably addend this too "give dakka dakka dakka to all specialist units". But as it is, orks need this BS buff. Most of our shooty units are overpriced right now to begin with. Bikers and flashgitz are especially costly right now (though I think we could skip this rule on flashgitz because they already have BS4 if not moving). Tankbustas, another shooty unit, costs around 190 points (10 boyz, 2 squigs), and since their range is only 24 a trukk is more or less mandatory, bringing their cost to about 300, so that's a lot to pay for 3 or 4 S8 AP-2 D3 hits, bumping up to 4 or 5 hits if it's against a vehicle. Lootas are similarly expensive at 17 ppm, but they also pretty much require a transport to hide in since they're only going to be getting a 5+ in cover. Ten lootas, if they get their maximum D3 shots, are going to pump out 30 shots for about 180 points. Now that sounds impressive, but ork BS will knock that down to 10 S7 AP-1 D2 hits. Again, not bad for light vehicles, but we're still paying 180 points for a T4 6+ squad that on average manages 10 S7 hits. Without a transport to protect them, it's going to get out about one round of shooting before it's shot off the table. Spend points on the transport, and that's back up to a total of 300 points. So no, I don't think it really warrants a point increase as long as we only give it to specialists. Keep it away from the boyz (and the grots, obviously), and give it to the overcosted specialists.

I would take that.

Some point fixes in december and Clan rules 2018 will do it as well.
5+ is fine, DakkaDakkaDakka for all would be to much.

Hell even up to 1 ammorunt per 5 models in the mob would be nice.
Fluffy, we stay at BS5+ and you can make your special weapons a bit more reliable.

Yeah, on second thought, a slight points increase could be warranted, but nothing as high as 25%. Or maybe attach this rule to a character to pay for it that way, just so orks can actually run shooty lists and be decent at it.

Come to think of it, giving this aura ability to some sort of mek might be a better idea. Orks already have the theme of overlapping auras, so that might actually work out better.

The good news is, when the Ork Codex arrives they will almost certainly gain some sort of buff to shooting whether that is through the Clan you choose or Warlord Traits or Stratagems.

The short-term good news is, if GW has identified that certain Ork shooting units are currently too weak (Tankbustas, Flash Gits, whatever, I am not actually familiar with the current Ork situation) then it is entirely possible that they will get a 1, 2, or whatever is appropriate point decrease to make them slightly stronger, as soon as End Of This Year in the new Chapter Approved 2017.

I don't see the reason for the points increase. Would make shootas more reliable. Plenty of other factions have the same shooting as Orks for same price with better BS. Maybe if you can't accept Orks need a buff you can limit it to shootas and not sluggas... against some -2 to hit units it would at least allow us to hit on a 6. People think Orks arnt a shooting race and then forget some of the biggest things about orks ard their big cool guns! Would be nice to pay the huge pts price for them and be able to hut with them... 4+ isn't even that good.

 ph34r wrote:
The good news is, when the Ork Codex arrives they will almost certainly gain some sort of buff to shooting whether that is through the Clan you choose or Warlord Traits or Stratagems.

The short-term good news is, if GW has identified that certain Ork shooting units are currently too weak (Tankbustas, Flash Gits, whatever, I am not actually familiar with the current Ork situation) then it is entirely possible that they will get a 1, 2, or whatever is appropriate point decrease to make them slightly stronger, as soon as End Of This Year in the new Chapter Approved 2017.

Or they could just throw us a random new HQ that gives all nearby orks rerolls to hit in shooting just like every single SM character.

But I honestly think it'll be a point decrease. As cool as a new HQ with a rule similar to dakka dakka dakka would be, I doubt we'll get anything like that.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
The good news is, when the Ork Codex arrives they will almost certainly gain some sort of buff to shooting whether that is through the Clan you choose or Warlord Traits or Stratagems.

The short-term good news is, if GW has identified that certain Ork shooting units are currently too weak (Tankbustas, Flash Gits, whatever, I am not actually familiar with the current Ork situation) then it is entirely possible that they will get a 1, 2, or whatever is appropriate point decrease to make them slightly stronger, as soon as End Of This Year in the new Chapter Approved 2017.

Or they could just throw us a random new HQ that gives all nearby orks rerolls to hit in shooting just like every single SM character.

But I honestly think it'll be a point decrease. As cool as a new HQ with a rule similar to dakka dakka dakka would be, I doubt we'll get anything like that.

Then I would have to buy a new model and I'm pretty happy with what I got... I hate character hqs and feel they ruin my personal lore.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
just like every single SM character.

I Wish

the best some of us marines can get is rerolls of 1s.

Feth those boys in blue, black, and white.

 lolman1c wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

Or they could just throw us a random new HQ that gives all nearby orks rerolls to hit in shooting just like every single SM character.

But I honestly think it'll be a point decrease. As cool as a new HQ with a rule similar to dakka dakka dakka would be, I doubt we'll get anything like that.

Then I would have to buy a new model and I'm pretty happy with what I got... I hate character hqs and feel they ruin my personal lore.

I moreso mean a generic mek or something that can give this bonus. Maybe some kind of equipment big meks can buy. This buff really wouldn't be strong enough to warrant a named character.

Seriously though, people are suggesting necrons get mortal wounds and such on their overlord in the other thread. We just want Orks that can be slightly competitive (ie ork armies that shoot rather than mass cc because I am slowly getting sick of cc). Think of it this way, if we get a +1 for attacking the same target (pretty lore friendly rule because they're all going to hold the trigger down and very likely to hit something) and we advance with our boyz (also a very likely to happen because that's the main tactic) we will still only hit on a 5. Honestly, I'd be okay with 5+BS if there was a dakka ruke that meant it cannot be modified at all (so you always hit on a 5+).

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
The dakkajet has a rule that reads "if this model fires all of its supa-shootas at a single target, add +1 to all of its to hit rolls. Why not give this to all orks?

While I agree with the need to change something, I don't think that this is the right fix, as you might as well just start making the models BS4+.


My first thought is that 6's to-Hit could result in bonus to-Hit rolls, emphasising volume of fire over accuracy. The tricky part is making sure it doesn't make anything too viable as Ork gun-lines isn't the desired outcome.
Another idea was to let Orks ignore to-Hit penalties; the implication being that they're not struggling to hit because they were never really trying in the first place, so smoke and other visual obstructions have no effect on their skill, i.e- they're just firing off enthusiastically/for a laugh so they don't care if they're spraying bullets through smoke, as they were going to spray those bullets indiscriminately anyway. This doesn't necessarily make them more powerful, but makes them less susceptible to anything that would make their already bad BS worse.

 Haravikk wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
The dakkajet has a rule that reads "if this model fires all of its supa-shootas at a single target, add +1 to all of its to hit rolls. Why not give this to all orks?

While I agree with the need to change something, I don't think that this is the right fix, as you might as well just start making the models BS4+.


My first thought is that 6's to-Hit could result in bonus to-Hit rolls, emphasising volume of fire over accuracy. The tricky part is making sure it doesn't make anything too viable as Ork gun-lines isn't the desired outcome.
Another idea was to let Orks ignore to-Hit penalties; the implication being that they're not struggling to hit because they were never really trying in the first place, so smoke and other visual obstructions have no effect on their skill, i.e- they're just firing off enthusiastically/for a laugh so they don't care if they're spraying bullets through smoke, as they were going to spray those bullets indiscriminately anyway. This doesn't necessarily make them more powerful, but makes them less susceptible to anything that would make their already bad BS worse.

I agree that Orks should lack accuracy. I also agree with the OPs point that they are so bad no one ever takes specialist weapons.

Maybe leave them as is, but add a rule that increases the effectiveness of specialists? I.e. if you have a rokkit launcher, you get +1 BS. I assume that would fix the later problem without creating the possibility of a gunline army.

What's wrong with having a gun line ork army? This game is all about customisable armies... if other armies can pick between shooting or cc, why can't we? It also makes sens elore wise as groups like the blood axes are very intelligent and liie to use real tactics like gun lines that fall back.

 lolman1c wrote:
What's wrong with having a gun line ork army? This game is all about customisable armies... if other armies can pick between shooting or cc, why can't we? It also makes sens elore wise as groups like the blood axes are very intelligent and liie to use real tactics like gun lines that fall back.

As a owner of Tau stuff i REALLY would love to get a psyker presence in my army

I am with Lolman1c on this. Some armies may have some less effective strategies, and weaknesses to work around, but no army (Ideally) should have FEWER strategies. Unless I'm mistaken, Tau have more then one effective strategy (and by that I mean tournament level lists you can build and lower level lists for pick-up games) but Orks have, unless I am again mistaken or we have yet to discover winning list #2, just one such strategy.

So some buff to shooty Orks would be great. Maybe not a BS buff, but just something to make guns viable for us.

Hmm. My local ork buddies actually kind of love their tank bustas right now, though I think that has something to do with the ability to damage vehicles in both the shooting and assault phase.

Here's a question for everyone: Should ork gunlines actually be a viable thing? Conversely, should tau melee be a viable strategy? How about marine spam tyranid transport rush? I think there's an argument to be made for simply making certain factions less good at certain things than others, though that does kind of become problematic when you have purely shooty options like a rokkit boy in a shoota squad or lootas in general. This isn't a criticism. Just a genuine question about whether or not some armies should have weaknesses that they can't build around.

I haven't taken the time to look closely at the ork section of my Xenos 2 index yet. In theory, I thought ork shooting worked on the concept of, "Mediocre-to-poor firepower most of the time, amazing for its cost firepower when you get lucky on your to-hit rolls." So compared a missile marine, a rokkit boy should hit less often, but the rokkit should be cheaper. As a result, on the turn in which they both hit their target, you've spent fewer points for that strength 8 hit than the marine player. Or as a better example, lootas should hit less reliably than an autocannon squad, but they should be way more impressive than an autocannon squad on that turn that they get lucky and hit with a ton of shots, preferably at a discount. Is that not currently the case with orkz?

I think Haravikk is on the right track with his suggestion to simply not make orks take penalties to hit. It doesn't up their maximum or even average damage output, but it does allow them to shoot while advancing without penalty (basically giving them battle focus). Which seems fluffy and appropriate for the army.

The +1 BS thing makes me wary because a +1 bonus to hit in a horde army means a far greater number of hits per points than in a small, elite army. Getting an extra 1 hit for every 6 shots means a 6 man squad of bolter marines hits two more times. The equivalent points worth of shoota boyz would be generating significantly more extra hits.

The "no split firing" thing doesn't seem like much of a drawback to me as ork squads typically have almost exclusively the same weapon or weapons that are similar enough to want to go after the same target anyway. So lootas don't mind shooting at vehicles together. Boyz with shootas big and small don't mind shooting at infantry. The only guy who really suffers from this is occassional rokkit boy in a shoota squad that might want to toss his shot at a vehicle or something instead of at an infantry target. So basically, this "drawback" won't come up for most squads, and the rare times that it does come up, it will actually work against your intended goal.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Hmm. My local ork buddies actually kind of love their tank bustas right now, though I think that has something to do with the ability to damage vehicles in both the shooting and assault phase.

Here's a question for everyone: Should ork gunlines actually be a viable thing? Conversely, should tau melee be a viable strategy? How about marine spam tyranid transport rush? I think there's an argument to be made for simply making certain factions less good at certain things than others, though that does kind of become problematic when you have purely shooty options like a rokkit boy in a shoota squad or lootas in general. This isn't a criticism. Just a genuine question about whether or not some armies should have weaknesses that they can't build around.

I haven't taken the time to look closely at the ork section of my Xenos 2 index yet. In theory, I thought ork shooting worked on the concept of, "Mediocre-to-poor firepower most of the time, amazing for its cost firepower when you get lucky on your to-hit rolls." So compared a missile marine, a rokkit boy should hit less often, but the rokkit should be cheaper. As a result, on the turn in which they both hit their target, you've spent fewer points for that strength 8 hit than the marine player. Or as a better example, lootas should hit less reliably than an autocannon squad, but they should be way more impressive than an autocannon squad on that turn that they get lucky and hit with a ton of shots, preferably at a discount. Is that not currently the case with orkz?

Should ork gunlines be viable? Yes, its literally in the fluff and was in the game originally until 7th nerfed anything that wasn't CC or a transport (roughly)

To your 2nd point, in theory that is what ork shooting was supposed to do, in reality what it does is suck. There is a reason you don't see any Ork Lootas or Flash Gitz in the tourny winning lists. I Rokkit Boy costs 17pts, a SM with a Missile Launcher Costs what? 38pts? That Ork will hit 1 time in 3 turns, he will also have to move to get close to his target because of the range of the weapon (24 compared to the MLs 48) the ML also has 2 modes of fire.

A single Dev Squad with a Sgt is 165pts 10 Tankbustas are 170pts. Facing off against one another the Dev Squad wins EVERY SINGLE TIME. Now this is in a vacuum i understand, but when you put those same squads in a vacuum against a vehicle the Dev Squad will likely win compared to the Tank Bustas. 4 MLs hit 3 times and against T7 wound 2 times doing D6 Damage, 10 Tank Bustas need to get into range (24) before they can shoot, and since they are T4 with 6+ armor they are going to die in droves to get into Range unless someone decided to be silly and deploy a vehicle basically in range. 10 Tank Bustas in range = about 5 hits and 3-4 wounds for 3 Damage each. So they do better on average when they can finally get into range, of course the Dev Squad will also be camping in cover with 2+ saves and be in range most of the game compared to the Tank Bustas.

Basically I am ok with Ork shooting sucking, but we shouldn't be paying SM prices for our weapons when they are both weaker and our models are significantly less accurate. A Rokkit for instance should be 5pts not 12. A Big Shoota should be a 2pt upgrade not 6, a Loota should be 10pts AT THE MOST.

AS far as special rules I agree, Just make it so ork shooting can never get worse then 5+ because of the fact that they barely aim as is.

Totally agree with the above! I cannot for the life of me understand why I am paying higher pts for less effective and efficient troops! In 1k point games I struggle to be as effective as most other armies. In 2k point games, most my points are wasted on hqs and elites to just barely be as effective as the otyer army. Right now the current meta is about 10 weirdboyz with a few painboyz and hundred odd troops.... why? Because weirdboys get the plus 5-10 to their role and auto D6 smite! Now to me this is more lore breaking than ork shooting army. When a pysker is a better shooter that does more damage than a weapon that shoots pure energy (Morkanaut) then you know your faction is broken.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Hmm. My local ork buddies actually kind of love their tank bustas right now, though I think that has something to do with the ability to damage vehicles in both the shooting and assault phase.

Here's a question for everyone: Should ork gunlines actually be a viable thing? Conversely, should tau melee be a viable strategy? How about marine spam tyranid transport rush? I think there's an argument to be made for simply making certain factions less good at certain things than others, though that does kind of become problematic when you have purely shooty options like a rokkit boy in a shoota squad or lootas in general. This isn't a criticism. Just a genuine question about whether or not some armies should have weaknesses that they can't build around.

I'd rather at least have the option to pull it off. Should I expect it to be as effective as a Tau gunline? Of course not, but I'd like it to at least be threatening. Maybe the 4+ thing isn't the way to do it, but I'm just trying to figure a quick fix to make orks have some kind of gunline viability.

How about just a 6 to hit with certain weapons gives an additional hit, like Tesla-lite?

SemperMortis wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Hmm. My local ork buddies actually kind of love their tank bustas right now, though I think that has something to do with the ability to damage vehicles in both the shooting and assault phase.

Here's a question for everyone: Should ork gunlines actually be a viable thing? Conversely, should tau melee be a viable strategy? How about marine spam tyranid transport rush? I think there's an argument to be made for simply making certain factions less good at certain things than others, though that does kind of become problematic when you have purely shooty options like a rokkit boy in a shoota squad or lootas in general. This isn't a criticism. Just a genuine question about whether or not some armies should have weaknesses that they can't build around.

I haven't taken the time to look closely at the ork section of my Xenos 2 index yet. In theory, I thought ork shooting worked on the concept of, "Mediocre-to-poor firepower most of the time, amazing for its cost firepower when you get lucky on your to-hit rolls." So compared a missile marine, a rokkit boy should hit less often, but the rokkit should be cheaper. As a result, on the turn in which they both hit their target, you've spent fewer points for that strength 8 hit than the marine player. Or as a better example, lootas should hit less reliably than an autocannon squad, but they should be way more impressive than an autocannon squad on that turn that they get lucky and hit with a ton of shots, preferably at a discount. Is that not currently the case with orkz?

Should ork gunlines be viable? Yes, its literally in the fluff and was in the game originally until 7th nerfed anything that wasn't CC or a transport (roughly)

To your 2nd point, in theory that is what ork shooting was supposed to do, in reality what it does is suck. There is a reason you don't see any Ork Lootas or Flash Gitz in the tourny winning lists. I Rokkit Boy costs 17pts, a SM with a Missile Launcher Costs what? 38pts? That Ork will hit 1 time in 3 turns, he will also have to move to get close to his target because of the range of the weapon (24 compared to the MLs 48) the ML also has 2 modes of fire.

A single Dev Squad with a Sgt is 165pts 10 Tankbustas are 170pts. Facing off against one another the Dev Squad wins EVERY SINGLE TIME. Now this is in a vacuum i understand, but when you put those same squads in a vacuum against a vehicle the Dev Squad will likely win compared to the Tank Bustas. 4 MLs hit 3 times and against T7 wound 2 times doing D6 Damage, 10 Tank Bustas need to get into range (24) before they can shoot, and since they are T4 with 6+ armor they are going to die in droves to get into Range unless someone decided to be silly and deploy a vehicle basically in range. 10 Tank Bustas in range = about 5 hits and 3-4 wounds for 3 Damage each. So they do better on average when they can finally get into range, of course the Dev Squad will also be camping in cover with 2+ saves and be in range most of the game compared to the Tank Bustas.

Basically I am ok with Ork shooting sucking, but we shouldn't be paying SM prices for our weapons when they are both weaker and our models are significantly less accurate. A Rokkit for instance should be 5pts not 12. A Big Shoota should be a 2pt upgrade not 6, a Loota should be 10pts AT THE MOST.

AS far as special rules I agree, Just make it so ork shooting can never get worse then 5+ because of the fact that they barely aim as is.

Solid points. A couple of thoughts for the sake of discussion:

1. Do tankbustas really struggle to get into range? I've never seen anyone run them without a transport, and rokkits are assault weapons. So you can move pretty far and then shoot without penalty.

2. While bustas do have to get closer than devastators, I thought that was actually part of the advantage of bustas. They can do decent damage to a vehicle in shooting and then have the option of charging (possibly a different vehicle entirely) to do decent damage in melee.

So while devastators definitely have some advantages, it looks on paper like aggresive bustas should only rarely have range problems, have comparable shooting damage output for their points, and have somewhat higher damage output if you charge them into something on top of shooting. Granted, this is from a non-ork-player looking in, and I may be misremembering how busta melee works.

3. Is that 10 points for a loota WITH a gun? O_O Even with a lootas BS, that still seems like a terrifyingly low price for that many strength 7 shots that can be fired from across the table in the relative safety of a transport.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lolman1c wrote:
. When a pysker is a better shooter that does more damage than a weapon that shoots pure energy (Morkanaut) then you know your faction is broken.

Yep. Because as we all know, magical brain energy should never be anywhere as powerful or accurate as semi-magic space lasers constructed by fungus orks. That's just science.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Hmm. My local ork buddies actually kind of love their tank bustas right now, though I think that has something to do with the ability to damage vehicles in both the shooting and assault phase.

Here's a question for everyone: Should ork gunlines actually be a viable thing? Conversely, should tau melee be a viable strategy? How about marine spam tyranid transport rush? I think there's an argument to be made for simply making certain factions less good at certain things than others, though that does kind of become problematic when you have purely shooty options like a rokkit boy in a shoota squad or lootas in general. This isn't a criticism. Just a genuine question about whether or not some armies should have weaknesses that they can't build around.

I'd rather at least have the option to pull it off. Should I expect it to be as effective as a Tau gunline? Of course not, but I'd like it to at least be threatening. Maybe the 4+ thing isn't the way to do it, but I'm just trying to figure a quick fix to make orks have some kind of gunline viability.

Maybe this is getting too off-topic and ought to be its own thread, but I find this an interesting point of view. Do people feel it's reasonable for two armies that both specialize in shooting to have varying degrees of effectiveness with their shooting? Part of me wants to say that 1500 points of "shooty" orks should be roughly as good at shooting as 1500 points of "shooty" guard or "shooty" tau. Otherwise, aren't you paying the same price for a worse product? Or does the (possibly unused) melee prowess that a loota has over a fire warrior or guardsman offset this difference in dakka?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How about just a 6 to hit with certain weapons gives an additional hit, like Tesla-lite?

Hmmmmmm. Maybe. What weapons would we be talking about, and are we talking about bonus attacks or bonus auto-hits? Shoota boyz, for instance, would basically improve their offensive output by 50% (half of their hits would generate an additional hit), but you'd only really be getting 1 extra hit for every 6 shots. Which doesn't sound completely unreasonable at a glance. On the other hand, a little bit of luck (rolling four 6s with some lootas, for instance, and ending up with eight hits) might get you some dirty looks.

Wyldhunt wrote:

1. Do tankbustas really struggle to get into range? I've never seen anyone run them without a transport, and rokkits are assault weapons. So you can move pretty far and then shoot without penalty.

The thing is, that means we have to pay for the transport as well, and they're flimsy transports at best. A standard Tankbusta loadout is 10 bustas, 2 squigs, and a trukk. That's going to run you about 280 points for a unit full of guys who need to be 24 away and only have a 1/3 chance of hitting with a rocket that only does 3 damage as opposed to D6.

Wyldhunt wrote:

3. Is that 10 points for a loota WITH a gun? O_O Even with a lootas BS, that still seems like a terrifyingly low price for that many strength 7 shots that can be fired from across the table in the relative safety of a transport.

No, it's 17 points per loota. And again, the trukk is just adding points, and these are flimsy vehicles. They're 80-ish points. That's a lot just to give a specialist shooting squad some staying power.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Maybe this is getting too off-topic and ought to be its own thread, but I find this an interesting point of view. Do people feel it's reasonable for two armies that both specialize in shooting to have varying degrees of effectiveness with their shooting? Part of me wants to say that 1500 points of "shooty" orks should be roughly as good at shooting as 1500 points of "shooty" guard or "shooty" tau. Otherwise, aren't you paying the same price for a worse product? Or does the (possibly unused) melee prowess that a loota has over a fire warrior or guardsman offset this difference in dakka?

An ork gunline will never be, and shouldn't be, more shooty than a tau gunline. But orks will have certain advantages that the Tau don't, such as numbers, redundancy, and decent melee. Any ork gunline is still going to employ some sort of melee unit.

SemperMortis wrote:

Should ork gunlines be viable? Yes, its literally in the fluff and was in the game originally until 7th nerfed anything that wasn't CC or a transport (roughly)

Man, you must have played a different 7e than I did, I played the 7e where CC focused armies had no chance of surviving the first round and a half against shooty armies in a good enough shape to charge, especially since if they came in from reserve they were required to spend a turn sitting around waiting to be shot, and where transports were rolling coffins that stood no chance again ap spam cheese.

Vitali Advenil wrote:Yeah, on second thought, a slight points increase could be warranted, but nothing as high as 25%.

So, at 25%, the cost of a Boy would be what, 8 points? I'd love to see what other army is getting something significantly better than an effective BS 4+ WS 3+ S4 T4 A3 with the ability to reroll charges and the potential for as high as Ld 20 at the start or the game at 8 points a model. Sure, other models have better BS or better Sv, or better Ld at similar costs, but they pay for it in lower T/S or fewer attacks, or in some cases even worse armor saves.

I can get that having completely ineffective fire is an issue no matter how cheap the models are, but given the rest of the Boy statline, it would not be ridiculous at all for them to bump up to 8 points a model have and effective 4+ BS

@Vitali Advenil:

1. Some excellent points there. Though I still feel that 24" is pretty good for bustas given that a transport gives them an extra 10(?) inches to that range and most enemies don't want to come towards an approaching ork force. But your points still stand. Devastators are arguably squishier than 10 bustas in a transport, but they also don'tn require a transport to work the way bustas do.

3. Ah. Yes. I can agree with that points cost. I'm not sure I agree with the "that's just adding points to give them a flimsy bit of protection" part though. In my eyes, transports are just a mandatory part of making some units work. I never run dark eldar trueborn around on foot and expect them to to perform; I give them a transport to keep them alive and get them in position, even though dark eldar vehicles aren't the sturdiest things in the galaxy. My craftworlder fire dragons are pretty solid tank busters, but I never make them jog up the field; I buy a fast and sturdy transport for them that, though useful in their own right, cost as much as 2 or 2.5 trucks depending on how I outfit them.

I kind of feel like you're saying, "Units aren't good unless they don't need transports." That's simply not how some units work, in my eyes.

Sure, it's nice to sit devastators on terrain and not need a vehicle to keep them alive, but having an open-topped transport certainly has some perks of its own, even if those perks come with a higher price tag.

Again, your points stand.

Ork Gunlines:
So the core issue here then is that an ork gunline's advantages should balance out against its disadvantages compared to more intuitive shooty armies, right? Comparing ork lootas to missile devastators, for instance, the lootas have more numbers/redundancy (a big gun per guy and sheer numbers) and probably more combat power (they have more attacks, but marines have better armor). Both units have about a 2/3rd chance of hitting their target (1 missile that hits 2/3rds of the time versus d3 missiles (average 2) that hit 1/3rd of the time), but the lootas are less likely to wound and average 0.5 less damage than the krak missile.

So what you end up with are ork counterparts to a marine shooty unit that do have the edge in terms of redundancy, numbers, and melee power, but the difference in firepower is perceived to be too great to let the shooty ork unit be viable next to the shooty marine unit, yes?

Or similarly, a bunch of lootas and bustas, despite being more numerous and better in melee than tau broadsides, might be perceived as unable to create a decent "ork gunline" compared to the broadsides because the broadside's shooting advantage is not balanced out by the superior ork numbers and combat ability. Yes?