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So, I am an avid fan of the R&H army. I don't care if we don't have orders, and I don't care if we can't have all of IG's toys, or necessarily be as good as them. I do, however, care that even the few things R&H do get are just outright inferior to guard's version for no reason at all.

The main thing I am talking about it the BS skill of our heavy weapons teams and infantry teams. I feel like a big part of guard lists are the autocanons, mortars, and all that, and I hate that we can't justify really taking them.

Am I missing something? What are your thoughts on our infantry and heavy weapons? I find all I bother to take in this edition are the things picked right from guard and added to our list (earthshaker emplacements, wyverns, etc). I miss having infantry, but our cultists cost more than the CSM codex ones now, and our regular dudes are just guard that shoot worse, and our heavy weapon teams are a joke (save 1 point for my 20 point lascannon to hit on 5+ instead of 4+? Really?).

How are you all running our R&H armies, besides as just counts-as guard or malefic lord spam.

Not to sound too pessimistic, but I have invested enough in this army that it's hard not to feel a bit shafted so far.

I tend to run valks with 2 maelific lords and 2 squads of plasma marauders supported by moderate numbers of blobs and squads of sniper marauders and a couple of earthshakers. The lords then summon demons when they get dropped off. Works well! But you do have to dig summoning demons.

I've been running R&H as supplement to my DG. Russes and hellhounds fill some gaps. It makes no sense to use Rengade infantry when cultists do a better job shooting. The baneblade is pretty good now if just a little expensive. I think like most things other than our loyalist counterparts were gunna have to wait till we get an update from forgeworld...

The worse BS is irksome, especially since they dont save any points for it. If you compare a 10-man, lasgun armed squad, militia to guard, you'll be annoyed and justified in it.

So do they have a use? Yes. The real killer of the renegades list is artillery - specifically earthshaker platforms - and a big part of the infantrys job is a skirmish screen, which they do well at.

- they get 20 man squads, which guard don't. Anyone charging a renegade squad draws overwatch from twice as many models

- Infantry get special weapons per 5 squad members; charging a unit with 4 flamers is a painful experience.

- Mutants can pack shotguns (normally a veteran-only weapon), meaning BS5+ S4 at short range, a decent trade for BS4+ S3.

- Both can get overwatch with a +1 to hit with the awesome covenant of tzeench. As an aside, supercharged plasma overwatch with no risk...


The other star infantry is definitely marauder mercenaries. A 5 man stalker/sniper rifle unit is cheap, really tough in cover, and gives (CHAOS) access to sniper weapons....

Covenant of Tzeentch allows for some potent anti-assault screens, and IIRC they have the only snipers Chaos can get ATM (hope for codexes changing that).

Well since we don't have a Codex and no "chapter tactics" or armywide rules dependent on keeping our detachments Renegades-only people are correct that it makes absolutely zero sense to be running any R&H troops. They are inferior to every other option available to us, especially the pathetically statted Militia. Best to just run R&H as a "Chaos" force that you supplement with better units, similar to the Imperial salad/soup type armies.

I have had success using Nurglings as my troops...they are relatively cheap but VERY durable objective holders, who, until Mischief Makers is almost certainly errata-ed, are able to set up anywhere on the board 9" from the enemy deployment (even within 1" of enemy units with similar scoutlike abilities).

As others have mentioned the "stars" of our stinker of an army list are Malefic Lords (even when not being spammed), MSU Marauders, and BS3+ weapons teams in the Command and Disciple Squads. Otherwise our best units are simply the Guard units we are allowed to take. Earthshakers (esp massed) are a notable standout.

Any of our 5+ shooting units are not worth a damn for anything...including being 4 flamer meatshields...imho. There are just better options for the points. The only exception is (possibly) massed Mortars. They are still so cheap that taking like 18 of them (3x6), even at BS5+, might actually be worth the investment. It certainly provides 18d6 LOS-ignoring shots and coats your deployment zone to make enemy alpha deep strikes against your important artillery nearly impossible to pull off. Not bad for 150ish points imo.

The other gaps in our army should be filled with CSM and Daemons to taste. Which is actually pretty fluffy if you go by the Vraks story. R&H as a standalone army is DOA until FW gives it a more serious look, which could take years in all honesty.

Plus, the larger units do offer a big 'hidden bonus' - whislt you're unlikely to runout of slots, even for guard infantry, but you do have the "finished deploying first" benefit - you can field your artillery and then put 100 warm bodies in front of them in two mutant rabbles, which turn up in even greater numbers than conscripts.

Given the amount of heavy weapons and artillery you can field, a decent chance of first turn is a potentially big deal.

The infantry are not competitive especially when compared to brimstone horrors whose only real job is to catch bullets and be a tarpit.

The artillery , lords, and marauders are good.

I think the ogres and beast packs are a good assault units

Ogres are OK, but you really want the power that lets you re-roll wounds and hits to go off for them to do well. Otherwise I would just ally in some daemons or CSM terminators.

The only part of R&H that is good, and only belongs to R&H, are malefic lords. Everything else is a copy from another codex, or is sub par to another unit you could easily take in a CHAOS army, as right now there is no point to limit yourself to just R&H.

I don't play super competitive matches but my opponents still runs pretty tough list, so when I field my beloved renegades I cry most of the time.
Anyway my current list is not so bad, I field 9 15 squad with 3 flamer, 9 malefic lords and 3 enforcers that form three great meat shields that are really annoying, since the can soak up quite a lot damage.
Anyway the militia squad are pretty useless, they are just ablative wounds and screens for a Baneblade and a full laser Malcador.
When I manage to park a tank over an objective gets difficult for the opponent.
The baneblade with 4 lateral placement is pretty nasty, it overwatch with 8d6 shots of heavy flamer and it still shoot in combat...

The thing I suffer most it's that R&E is a non aura army in the bubble characters era...I hope that will get a little better with the new vracs book or whatever FG will pop from his hat.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Renegades_And_Heretics(8E)

Do read.

RaH is a pretty darn good army.
Yea, at some points its "worse AM", and at somepoints is "straight up better AM". it has it's upsides and downsides.

RaH features the awesome malefic lords, rouge psyker coven, renegade command squads, disciple squads, marauder squads, mutant rabble+enforcer is similar to conscript+commissar, and you get all the AM's armor division and artillery.

Honestly its a tossup between RaH who is better, and the two are currently fighitng over being the top dogs at tournaments, so saying RaH are screwed is rather silly.

I have to disagree. I am not seeing anything in the RaH index besides the malefic lords that isn't better done by AM.

No orders, no source of to hit rerolls of any kind, no deep striking plasma, no weight of fire delivered by tauroxes, bf 5+ mortars.

I used to play RaH in 7th but switched back to playing guard because i have no idea how to play a pure RaH list that isn't just straight up worse then the same list as AM.

Can you link a list that got to the top tables of a tournament? I would like to go back to playing RaH but i am not seeing how any list could win against the armies that took the top spots at for example Nova.

 BoomWolf wrote:
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Renegades_And_Heretics(8E)

Do read.

RaH is a pretty darn good army.
Yea, at some points its "worse AM", and at somepoints is "straight up better AM". it has it's upsides and downsides.

RaH features the awesome malefic lords, rouge psyker coven, renegade command squads, disciple squads, marauder squads, mutant rabble+enforcer is similar to conscript+commissar, and you get all the AM's armor division and artillery.

Honestly its a tossup between RaH who is better, and the two are currently fighitng over being the top dogs at tournaments, so saying RaH are screwed is rather silly.

Wow. Where to even start? Well, I guess with citing 1d4chan as a source for anything other than opinion in a vacuum. Their "tactics" articles are copypasted general knowledge at best, and downright subjective misinformation at worst.

At every single point other than "cheap psykers" Guard is a better army than R&H. Every single one. And their cheap psykers aren't even that bad. Marauders and disciples are playable and some of the best units in the poor R&H armylist, yes, but no access to Orders, auras, or buffs of any kind (at all) makes them pretty mediocre compared to nearly every other unit that does a similar thing in any other army.

Rogue psykers are completely unplayable next to Malefic Lords...there is no reason you would ever give up a potential slot for a ML to a rogue psyker coven. No reason. It doesn't have access to any usable psychic powers to take advantage of its special ability. I mean, it's not even close. And if you are playing unified Chaos you have DPs, CLs, Sorcerors! SOOO many better things to stick in that HQ slot.

Now the above could just be an opinion or subjective view, but when you move on to your next claim...whoa boy...that's when things just get downright untrue.

The claim that R&H is showing up at top tables is completely false. I think what you are confused about is unified Chaos players taking 10-15 Malefic Lords. They aren't taking any other unit in the index, because Chaos has access to units that perform nearly every role better. Malefic Lords are simply that ridiculously undercosted and provide a mountain of Smite/mortal wounds for little investment. Our best unit showing up on tournament tables doesn't mean our army is competitive or playable, it means FW made a mistake, and it will likely get fixed very soon.

I mean you are entitled to your opinion, of course. But the information you are rattling off to defend your position is either misinformed or completely wrong. Anyone who has played more than half a dozen games with this army can tell you that. I would argue, with evidence, that R&H is likely the current WORST army in 40k (just R&H, not counting any Chaos allies...etc), and if not it is certainly in the bottom three. There's just no getting around the facts, the points and the stats. Now a good player or a player aiming to have fun can take that and say "it doesn't matter to me, I will play what I want to play"...but to claim that R&H are a "pretty darn good army"...I mean, compared to what? It is NOT a competitive army and, I would argue, even objectively not a "good" one.

I just wish I could take my valdor or infernus with renegades. :(

the_trooper wrote:
I just wish I could take my valdor or infernus with renegades. :(

Bombard FW with requests.
(I do, and I don't even own one)

I don't want just sit in an angle and cry, some units are viable and it's possible to build a decent (pretty ugly) list with them:

Malefic Lord
The spam of Malefic Lord seem inevitable, he's one of the few affordable and trustful meaning to inflict damage on the opponent, at leats you need 10 or more in a list.

Mutant Rubble
The combo of mutant rabble with the rogue psiker it's a solid choiche: two full unit with a khorne commander are on the edge of 450 points BUT:
- on the charge they can dish out a solid number of attack ( if you are a little bit lucky withe the mutation roll) with strenght 4 ( or more, given to the roll)

- they offer a great meat shield with the Enforcer compulsory choiche

ALTERNATIVE

It's possible to arm them with shotguns, two full squad with Enforcer and Tzeentch Commander are under 400 points

A unit fires 80 Fo 3 shots at 12" and can overwatch with the same amout of dakka...in a turn with overwatch they can inflict more or less 10 casualty to a MEQ


Militia
They can take a special weapon for every five models, a unit of 20 with 4 flamers are 108 points, with it's not so bad:
a unit of havocs with 4 flamer are 101 points minimum but they are less durable, with only 5 wounds and they immediate degrade dakka after only one wound.
The militia squad has to lose 16 wound before losing the flamers and they offer a lot more dakka.
a unit of guard veterans cost 81 points per ten men and 3 flamers, it's cheaper but they have half the bodies.

Marauder
A msu size of plasma stalker marauder is 49 points, which is REALLY cheap:
a comparable unit is a Alpha Legion Plasma havoc squad, you can have 5 plasma gun in a 5 man squad for 133 points, that is comparable with TWO units of marauder with 98 points. Marauders offer more bodies so a comparable resilience compare to the havocs.
Actually you can put a Slaanesh mark on the havocs and use the double-shot stratagem on them, doubling their point/damage ratio but this issue is common to all the factions without a codex.

Renegades are one of those things I'd like to be good, if only to add even more options to a CSM list I'm gradually coming up with.

It's been a shame to me that they seem to be universally disliked. Doesn't even seem like it would need much to fix them. Giving them access to marks, or some kind of orders, would seem to be enough.

They...have marks. that actually do stuff. for free.
Khorne gives +1S on the charge, nurgle gives 6++ against S4 or lower attacks, tzeentch gives a +1 modifier on overwatch and slannesh gives an extra dice to advance/charge discarding the lowest.
Not much, but its more than CSM "marks" do beyond stratagems. (and these eat CP really quickly)
You just need it to be your actual army (requires your warlod to be RaH)

 BoomWolf wrote:
They...have marks. that actually do stuff. for free.
Khorne gives +1S on the charge, nurgle gives 6++ against S4 or lower attacks, tzeentch gives a +1 modifier on overwatch and slannesh gives an extra dice to advance/charge discarding the lowest.
Not much, but its more than CSM "marks" do beyond stratagems. (and these eat CP really quickly)
You just need it to be your actual army (requires your warlod to be RaH)

Ahh, no I knew about the allegiences, but it requires you to use a Renegades character as your warlord... which seems to be a pretty big tax. The best bet seems to be a malefic lord, but even so they're very easily killed for free points to your opponent. Also means you dont get access to any of the warlord traits or wargear from the CSM codex.

The allegiences should just be "every unit in the detachment should be renegades", like it is for every other army release right now. Needing the warlord to be a renegade is only vaguely useful if you are taking a 100% R&H army.

If you're taking a CSM army, and want some renegades as a detachment, then they wont get any allegience bonus and so are even worse than they already are.

It wont be like "any other army released until now", becuase the army didn't even get released it.

Its just an index stopgag. it will get full rules when it actually gets properly released.
Just like every codex that came so far is miles ahead of its index list.

 BoomWolf wrote:
It wont be like "any other army released until now", becuase the army didn't even get released it.

Its just an index stopgag. it will get full rules when it actually gets properly released.
Just like every codex that came so far is miles ahead of its index list.

I didn't think FW were planning to do a separate codex release for renegades. They might get an errata update, but I doubt they'd get a whole codex release.

Why not? how is that any different from the indexes that are not from FW?

Its a pile of different armies, with partial rules. hardly complete army lists.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Why not? how is that any different from the indexes that are not from FW?

Its a pile of different armies, with partial rules. hardly complete army lists.

...because the other armies in indexes were all released with the intention from GW to release full codexes at a later date, while Renegades is a FW index, and FW don't always do full codex releases for their models.

In fact I can't think of the last time they did a full codex release for an army. AdMech have been waiting for the fabled Fires Of Cyraxis release for mechanicum models for something like 3 years now, and it's unlikely to be out before the end of this year at best. Ork's dread mob had a pdf codex release back in 5th, which got updated for 7th, but hasn't been updated since. I don't know of any others.

Not sure why you seem to be upset with my assumption that the renegades index is the best that they will get for 8th... there's no precedent for FW doing anything else other than leaving the rules as-is until 9th edition, except perhaps a couple erratas if you're lucky.

Not that FW communicates much, but my assumption is that the index is all we're ever going to get for Renegades this edition.

There are elements/units that are decent, but by and large it's a garbage army IMO. Just intentionally worse than AM without any meaningful trade-offs. Especially the units that are just straight up worse and cost the same number of points. What the hell? Or stuff like rapier laser destroyers, which are the same points in a chaos space marine list except with BS3+ and special rules.

I'm just gonna play mine as loyalists with traitor skins. Fluffwise, I totally get the ramshackle/scavenged/stolen nature of how FW envisions the list, but I want to play a mortal chaos coherent/competent military army, and I want to use the models I own like the Stormhammer, Stormlord, and Macharius Vulcan, which would otherwise not be playable for RaH.

As for the RaH list itself, as has been said, the artillery seems really good. Malefic lords are notorious, but I have no interest in spamming them. They'll probably get sorted out one way or the other, though.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Not that FW communicates much, but my assumption is that the index is all we're ever going to get for Renegades this edition.

Yeah, I have to say I agree with this assessment. It seems that this edition GW has pretty much eliminated support for all the former FW curated "armies" such as R&H and Corsairs. Their basic stance seems to be, if it doesn't have a model or model line, we don't want to promote it. They released the indices to hold people over and put off any "squatting" anger that might have come out after 7th, so that people could still play with their toys, but it doesn't seem they (FW or GW) have much in the way of plans to continue these armies in the future. Hell Corsairs don't even get a standalone armylist in the Index, they just get a couple entries in the craftworlds section and an FAQ that says to use counts-as craftworlds HQs. Doesn't bode well.

There's always a chance (albeit slim) that Renegades will get plastic releases from GW, and eventually a codex. Years from now, if ever. I also wonder about the Dark Mechanicus faction we can give certain units. I also hope GW covers that army, should it ever exist. Would prefer if GW took over 40k rules completely, tbh.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Not that FW communicates much, but my assumption is that the index is all we're ever going to get for Renegades this edition.

This is also my thought and fear. I loved R&H in 7th, and not just because artillery/zombies spam made WAAC players of every other army army cry in frustration. I had a blast with conversions, themed armies, and narrative campaigns. Throwing hundreds of models at a space marines felt very thematic and what 40k was about. The fluffy lists were fun to play with, and my opponents seemed to always enjoy themselves.

Now I can field less bodies that are less effective. The only things I am happy with are that our psykers are not hot garbage anymore, Ogryns are cool, and militia are cool. I always wanted to make a few unique militia units, but the old moral rule and cost was too much. I'm considering unloading all but my favorite stuff so I could bring little detachments of tanks or whatever to support the rest of my chaos, if they even need it. Death Guard are looking better every day.

We lost grenadiers too, burns my butt.

Other than a wonky/poorly conceived list, I miss the HQ options that allowed us to play very different lists through unlocks, like Bloody-Handed Reaver.

Marauders and Disciples are awesome.

Ogryns finally worthy taking and Heavy weapons teams are disgustingly cheap, just take mortars or heavy stunners. You can easily bring a brigade to low points games and this is where Renegades and Heretics really shine.