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This is one of those things that's been explained very vaguely and hasn't really been discussed all that much.

Okay, so souls. We all vaguely know what souls are, basically a living things spiritual and non-physical being. Things we do know are, the chaos gods crave souls and derive (at least some of their) power from them.

Psychic blanks such as sisters of silence and the necrons are soulless and are the opposite of what the warp is. They have no presence in the warp due to their lack of souls.

So using this logic, we can say that the more powerful the soul, the more powerful the connection to the warp. A higher connection to the warp seems to include much stronger emotions as exampled by eldar and psyker humans. This makes sense because the warp is known to be raw emotion given physical form.

The warp is also described as the "sea of souls"

So a soul is some sort of piece of the warp that most living beings have?

Soooo, this kind of makes sense when we're talking about humans and eldar, but when we discuss other races and their relationship with the warp, it gets ALOT more confusing.


So necrons are all blanks, does this mean they don't feel any emotion?

Tau have a much lower presence in the warp than the rest of the species. Does this mean they have smaller souls? Are their emotions not as strong? If so, that could explain why they're so easily able to set aside their differences and work together for the greater good.

And just what the hell is the "Shadow of the Warp" that emanates from the tyranids? This is by far the most compelling part of the warp imo and may be better left unexplained just to amplify how alien the tyranids are.
It's described as a "psychic static" Does this mean tyranids or the hive mind have souls? Or just one big soul? They definitely have something, or else they just wouldn't appear in the warp at all like the necrons. But instead they appear as a "shadow" or "static." Very mysterious yet very interesting!

Sorry, I know this post isn't very cohesively structured. I just wanted to throw out some ideas to hopefully start a discussion and get some answers ^.^

Yeah that's not a bad overview of what we currently know about souls in 40k. The thing that needs to be understood is that it's intentional that we know very little about how it actually works, and thus there is very little solid information proof or disproof (which is exactly how it should be). A lot is left up to interpretation.

With that said, here are my thoughts on the matter:

Okay, so souls. We all vaguely know what souls are, basically a living things spiritual and non-physical being. Things we do know are, the chaos gods crave souls and derive (at least some of their) power from them.

So a soul is some sort of piece of the warp that most living beings have?

A soul, emotion, connection to the warp and the composition of the chaos gods themselves are probably indistinguishable, or at least so ill-defined as to be indistinguishible.

I suppose you could see it as 'a little bit of the warp inside every soul-being', but that's probably a simplification of what actually takes place. Another simplification would be that the warp is a parallel dimension through which our emotions echo as a 'soul', creating the eddies and currents of the warp. Another simplification could be that the warp and the materium are one and the same thing, and it's just a process we've rationalised as an alternative dimension because we can't see it.

All are probably simplifications of what the warp actually is to allow our mortal minds to comprehend it

So using this logic, we can say that the more powerful the soul, the more powerful the connection to the warp. A higher connection to the warp seems to include much stronger emotions as exampled by eldar and psyker humans. This makes sense because the warp is known to be raw emotion given physical form.

Tau have a much lower presence in the warp than the rest of the species. Does this mean they have smaller souls? Are their emotions not as strong? If so, that could explain why they're so easily able to set aside their differences and work together for the greater good.

I like the connection you've made between emotional potential, a being's psychic potential and the Tau being Blunt potentially facilitating their culture. Nice thinking. I like that.

This has some really interesting implications for other fluff when you start connecting the dots. Specifically about the Emperor's plan to cut humanity off from the warp to starve the chaos gods. Either it would just fail as its impossible, or (more interestingly) it would involve completely severing the connection mankind has with its emotions and its souls. Basically, making precisely the same mistake that the Necrons made millennia ago.

Psychic blanks such as sisters of silence and the necrons are soulless and are the opposite of what the warp is. They have no presence in the warp due to their lack of souls.

So necrons are all blanks, does this mean they don't feel any emotion?

Personally, I think there's a distinction between a being being 'Blank' and a being having no soul. As far as I see it, Blanks aren't actually soul-less. What they have is...something else...which is a hell of a lot scarier. Sort of an anti-soul. Opposite and repulsive to regular souls like north and south magnetic poles. Necrons actually have no soul at all anymore, so are more like they're inert and non-magnetic in our example metaphor.

And just what the hell is the "Shadow of the Warp" that emanates from the tyranids?

The way I see the shadow in the warp is that it's the interaction between the psychic echoes of our galaxy (the warp) and the completely incompatible psychic echoes of entities who are so alien to us that even their souls are incompatible with ours. Either that or their emotions are comparable and it's just a single over-riding emotion of 'hunger' that blankets out every other in the warp. So yeah, psychic static

If you want a sort of explanation as to what 'the warp' and 'daemons' actually probably are based on our current understanding, I'm a fan of this one (I would be! It's mine...)



So add that to a completely foreign conscious thunderstorm generated by the Tyranids that's incompatible to ours and you can sort of understand what might happen with the Shadow in the Warp.

Another interesting implication of this possibility is that the chaos gods are native to our galaxy, and thus would be every bit as freaked out about the Tyranids as we are. Of course, GW with their preoccupation in constructing a 'big bad' for our 'big damn heroes' to fight probably isn't going to make Chaos appear weak by suggesting that, despite all the realism it would bring. Part of the reason I've always disliked the idea of 'big bads'...

I like the idea of the existing Chaos gods being more or less native to our galaxy. I also wonder if they are not in some way warped descendants of the Old Ones.

The way I understood it was that the Chaos gods are basically a side-effect of there being a sufficient number of souls (Total power level of souls? Collective soul mass?) in the universe. After enough souls shaped them, they became distinct beings that could be distinguished from the rest of the Warp. They're still made of Immaterium, but they're more than just a bunch of souls in a lump, despite being made of the same physical/spiritual/metaphysical/metaspiritual/whatdoievencallthis material they're something beyond that.

Yeah it's a neat concept. It also ups the lovecraftian feel of it, seeing as utterly beyond us they might be...but they could be small fry compared to what lurks out there.

Chaos Gods as warped remnants of Old Ones is a definite possibility

 ajaxcrackmaster wrote:



And just what the hell is the "Shadow of the Warp" that emanates from the tyranids? This is by far the most compelling part of the warp imo and may be better left unexplained just to amplify how alien the tyranids are.
It's described as a "psychic static" Does this mean tyranids or the hive mind have souls? Or just one big soul? They definitely have something, or else they just wouldn't appear in the warp at all like the necrons. But instead they appear as a "shadow" or "static." Very mysterious yet very interesting!

Theory:

The tyranids are the minions of a universe scale warp entity, the shadow is as literal as it gets in the warp.

Maybe the Shadow in the Warp is an evolutionary adaptation of some kind.

kingleir wrote:

Theory:

The tyranids are the minions of a universe scale warp entity, the shadow is as literal as it gets in the warp.

The shadow being very, very literal is a great 'worst case scenario' possibility I like it as a potential, even if I don't think it's the most likely explanation

Thorax Abdomen wrote:
Maybe the Shadow in the Warp is an evolutionary adaptation of some kind.

If the Tyranids have devoured galaxies with powerful psychic civilisations or warp travel before then I expect it might be...

There's alot of stuff in that one. Let's go over some basic things.

First is that "emotions" and "souls" might ne connected bit probably aren't. From what we know destiny and "potential" seem to be the biggest factors. Someone who's born to be a sector governor for instance will have a more powerfull soul then someone born as a peasant. I could dig up the source for this, it's an old white dwarf. In "dead sky black sun" a deamon comments on a Space marine Captain having a powerfull soul, because the dude is very driven. Calling it "bright" I think. It might be connected to emotions but I think it's more possible that it's connected to the ability to do "something". A warlock in the path of the seer novel mentions how humans are dangerous because every one of their souls have the potential for greatness. Or something along those lines anyway, I can't recall her exact words.

The theory falls a little flat on the fact that blanks have emotions. A major character in the Eisenhorn series is a blank and definetly has emotions. There's also diffrent levels of blanks. Some (extremly rare) blanks are apparently on the level of alpha psykers (not to be confused with alpha-level psykers in the game, damnit gw don't mess up your own lore) able to affect entire continents with their aura. Basicly they're a soul equalivent of a black hole.

Another effect blanks have is that they hurt deamons because the deamons can't be manifested around them. In the Cain books for instance a greater Deamon treats a blank like a fire, even getting burn marks from touching him. It's possible the soulless actually have souls but that they repell things. Most blanks become psychologically disturbed because people feel bad around them.

The Tyranids are in fact probably the most intresting race where souls are concerned. They can create psykers from biomass (zoaphrones), they "block out" warp sensitivity and they communicate telepathically. Most seem to accept that the shadow in the warp is actually the endless chatter of the species talking as they travel. It's debated whenever a single Tyranid can be possessed, but to me it seems likely. A bunch of Tyranids can operate on their own and could probably be possessed by a deamon that gave it the correct stimuli, maybe posing as a higher synapse creature mentally or whatever.

Where the Tau are concerned there's a big theory that they are actually psychic, but their control chrystals that gives the Etherials power over them seems to surpress their souls.

Orks are also a bit fascinating since they are the (debatably) most numerous species in the galaxy but their two chaos enteties, Gork and Mork, seem relatively minor.

Then there's big E consuming souls and becomming a powerhouse in the warp.

I think the nature of the soul is a tough topic even if you are a philosoher!

However, we know that souls have a link to the physical form which is why Eldar wear spirit stones.
I do wonder how Dark Eldar who are 'regrown' by the Heamonculi are able to retain their souls.

How do vat born human and eldar have a soul when they are produced artifically?

No answers just more questions haha!





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Orks are also a bit fascinating since they are the (debatably) most numerous species in the galaxy but their two chaos enteties, Gork and Mork, seem relatively minor.

Negative emotions seem more powerful (there is no Chaos god of happiness!) and Orks don't really display negative emotions like angst, sorrow, bitterness and the like very much.
However, some Orks do worship Khorne so they must contribute something to the warp.

Also we don't actually know what Gork and Mork are!

Hmmm, the 'potential' thing does have legs, but i'm not sold entirely. There's definitely a strong connection between emotional potential/action and the warp. The evidence that the warp gods specifically set out to feed the emotions that constitute them supports that.

As for Blanks i don't believe they have no soul. Necrons have no soul, and they don't display the same properties. I believe Blanks have some sort of anti-soul. Something else that is the antithesis of regular souls.

Interesting you mention they could be similar to black holes. Perhaps it's not that they have anti-souls, but rather that their soul is so impossibly huge it draws all other souls inexorably into the pit of its event horizon. Hence the horror that daemons have for them, for to be trapped in a soul black-hole would represent one of the few ways a daemon could truly die.

All theorising of course

As for dark eldar, it's been explained that their coming back from the dead is facilitated by their souls tenaciously clinging to any little scraps of flesh that are left after they've taken a bolter shell to the face, around which the Haemonculus is able to produce a new body. Some DEldar take it further and leave a 'sample' of themselves behind just in case they get hit by anything that doesn't exactly leave remains behind, although i expect that would cost more...

As for how vat-born end up with souls it's my headcanon basically that himan souls tend to be a bit of a mishmash and there's no real issue in the warp chucking out another one to fill a clone. However, as the warp has a bit of a taste for eldar souls it's not as easy for them.

My thoughts were that the form of payment the haemonculi take for their services is to slice off a sliver of your soul. Around this soul-sliver they grow a new eldar clone, who then has to go out into the world and devour other souls until theirs is whole again using the same process by which the DEldar top up their souls as they're leached away by Slaanesh.

This sort of means that Commorragh is sort of like 100 actual eldar souls stretched thinly over 100,000 individuals which is a neat little thought

Oh, and your assertion that negative emotions have more 'weight' is borne out by the deldar fluff too. It's stated that the deldar could actually top up their souls through any emotion, it's just that negative ones work better

Actually, that's another supporting thing for a direct link between souls and emotions. The dark eldar have their souls slowly syphoned away by Slaanesh, which they then top up by causing heightened emotions in their victims