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Alright, so whenever I read the Imperial lore, I come across bits about entire Chapters or a freaking company pacifying entire planets. To me, that's just ludacris. The amount of resources needed to pacify an entire planet is unfathomable. Consider our own world, the various countries, armies, and cities. all that non-sense. No way Space Marines could pacify an entire planet... Perhaps through fear but even then, there's too much ground to cover.

So with my little rant over and done with, I'm wondering how the various races would go about invading an entire planet. Lets set aside the lore and try to touch down on the details.

We all know how Orks do it, it's fairly simple: just keep throwin' boyz at da wall n'til dat wall rollz ova.

Arch Warhammer had some good video's on the Imperial Guard and Tyranid invasions but I'm curious as to how others might perform it.

How would Dark Eldar achieve an entire planetary raid? Would there be months, if not years of prep work of subterfuge, soft raids, and espinoage before even attempting it? Raiding an entire planet, again, seems barely fathomable. Do they target certain, vaguely populated worlds, and even then, which worlds are considered and how do transport that man power needed to preform such a task? I don't doubt they have enough Half-Born's to fudge up a planet yet transporting them all without notice... Ehh, that's a tad too conspicuous.

Any information on Necron Tomb Worlds awakening process is greatly appreciate. I assume a Necron Invasion would essentially be a Scorched Earth while taking oodles of slave labor. My head canon says Necron's take humans to toss them in furnaces, thus, the oodles of scarabs... But that's just me.

Besides the Dark Eldar and Necron, any information regarding planetary invasions by the various races, in a believable sense, would be dearly loved.

Thanks for humoring me and I look forward to your replies.

(( Topic may divert but any subject revolving around an outside force attacking a planet is the key point. ))

I imagine Dark Eldar don't really need to pacify a whole planet, the aren't planning on keeping the territory. They would probably only be concerned about the soft targets, agri-worlds, civilized worlds. Places where there are a high number of civilians and relatively low, or ill equipped number of soldiers to protect them. This scouting could be done by outcast eldar from craftworlds or sneaky fleets of Dark eldar in real space.

After that step it's just a matter of drumming up enough support amongst the various cabals to mount the raid properly. An attack on a lonely Listening Post on an outlying asteroid might only take a few hundred Warriors, but attacking a large planet might need the cooperation of multiple cabals working together. Then they just need to find the closest webway portal and zoom there while trying to avoid Imperial Navy patrols.

Yeah that fits with my concept of Dark Eldar planetary raiding to me. Also bear in mind that the Dark Eldar have a better mastery of the webway than the CWE. While the CWE must find an extant gate to deploy through in the majority of instances, portable webway gates are commonplace enough in the Dark Eldar to develop a strategy around.

Even if you can only drop a single Raider through each one, if each Kabal has a few and you have hundreds of Kabals co-operating then you can raid somewhere that has no dedicated webway portal but still passes close enough to the webway to jump through the walls. I would expect there to be a hell of a lot of prep work to a large-scale raid like that. The DEldar love combat, and love slaughter, but they still won't charge headlong into an enemy they have no hope of beating.

I do also believe that they go for harder targets to crack occasionally, simply for the sheer thrill of it. A lot of the actual drive to participate in a raid is because for a Dark Eldar it's really, really fun. While they can nourish themselves on the brutality of the arenas, nothing quite compares to experiencing a raid in the flesh. It's all about exhilaration and the thrill of the fight. Not a great deal of thrill if there's no risk in it for you

Oh, and I'm 100% with you on the utter mind-bending ridiculousness of even a full 1000-1500 strong chapter of Marines invading a world, superhuman or not. It's simply a gross misunderstanding of the scale involved in planetary warfare.

For me, there are two things that mollify that. The first is the headcanon that the Imperium hasn't the foggiest idea how many Space Marines it actually has. Either each chapter is significantly larger than the 1000 men stated, there are hundreds of thousands more chapters than we're told, or a combination of both. The second thing is the idea that there are actually significantly forces of chapter serfs/auxilia/IG regiments/general hangers-on that accompany them everywhere but never make the history books for the same reason you never hear about the ~900 Helots that accompanied the Spartans in their last stand at Thermopylae.

That's my favourite one loads of modelling opportunities...

Okay, stop you right there, I want to quickly point out that I highly... No; am certain there wouldn't be any Imperial patrols near the targets you listed. I am almost positive any meaningful Navy patrols cover perhaps 5% of the Imperium, and that's being generous. Those patrolled worlds are probably priority roles. Other then that, I like to believe a large Dark Eldar raiding fleet would maul and molest those tiny gun-boats cruising the system.

No insult intended, I work under the notion the Imperium is the rustic bureaucratic machine constantly implied in the lore. Part of me wonders how they even counter Dark Eldar raids, besides good ole lady luck... But she's probably in bed with the Emperor. ANYWAY!

Back on topic, do you think there'd be a certain goal the raiding party would need to reach? Yea, if the raiders are there for a month, I'd say they're safe from a counter-offensive but any longer... Well, not even the Imperium procrastinates that much. I'd assume there be a contingent of Space Marines inbound at that point, if there's any near by.

Now, I want to talk a bit abut logistics: Do you think the hired outcast could be trusted to provide the specific logistics for targets? I'm just assuming the raiders would target large concentrations of people. So, geography, urban terrain, all the nitty-gritty. Given they're type of Eldar, I'm assuming (I know I know, I'm assuming too much) there's a meticulous side to them. Every bit of information that hastens the raid while maximizing take is just gravy.

Oh, and to correct myself up top; I said the Imperium would begin mobilizing an offensive in a month because it's a Xeno incursion. From what I read, no Xeno's goes uncheck. I'd wager you'd have Naval and Guard contingents who get the message and race on over. Screw the grinding politics, they're xeno's.

OH! Another question: Would the Dark Eldar target the Astropath's or do they even know about them?

Ynneadwraith: So Dark Eldar have a better mastery of the Webway? I feel like a pleeb just finding this out. They're my third favorite faction just below Iron Warriors and Necron. Still, that does help clear up a bit of confusion considering how they transport the forces. But for a moment, do you mind elaborating as to how the Dark Eldar know the Webway better than their Craftworld cousins? I always believed it was the other way around.

That's interesting... The only thing that actually brings those psycho's together is the thrill of the kill type of scenario. I read it in the codex's but reading the reason as you conveyed paints a clearer picture.

My current idea of lightning raids is challenged, however. Do you believe they'd still operate with absolute efficiency, taking as much as quick as possible or would they willingly risk enemy reinforcements arriving?

Even then, taking entire worlds or pacifying them seems like a lengthy, resource consuming process. My head canon is similar to yours as IG accompany them. As for the time it takes, Space Marines have a terrible ego problem and a bad habit for embellishing.

I think that worlds are much more densely populated than we realize. A hive world may have a population of several million, but that'll be concentrated to a small handful of tiered cities that a single SM chapter could easily pacify one at a time. Other worlds probably have at least half of their population focused around the star ports (where the jobs are) so a securing the ports and pointing guns at the rest probably gets the job done.

Another is consider is that, in the fluff, there is no such thing as completely 'pacified'. The Imperium reports that the Orks are purged, the cultists dead to a man, the tau removed, Three months later they inevitably find out that survivors from the outer territories are stirring up trouble again and the endless war starts up again. Armageddon is a textbook example. It's constantly being reported as pacified. The Imperium is one it's what? 900th or so total victory?

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I think that worlds are much more densely populated than we realize. A hive world may have a population of several million, but that'll be concentrated to a small handful of tiered cities that a single SM chapter could easily pacify one at a time. Other worlds probably have at least half of their population focused around the star ports (where the jobs are) so a securing the ports and pointing guns at the rest probably gets the job done.

Another is consider is that, in the fluff, there is no such thing as completely 'pacified'. The Imperium reports that the Orks are purged, the cultists dead to a man, the tau removed, Three months later they inevitably find out that survivors from the outer territories are stirring up trouble again and the endless war starts up again. Armageddon is a textbook example. It's constantly being reported as pacified. The Imperium is one it's what? 900th or so total victory?

(( I really need to get into the habit of quoting people. I keep forgetting that button is there. ))

But considering the sheer size of a Hive City? Even though Space Marines can operate without rest or resupply (Murdering with their bare hands) I still can't believe they can comb through a Hive City in a month or two. These are mega-cities stacked upon mega-cities. Say they do miss a few targets, this is still an entire hive that told the Imperium to go feth-themselves. In the cultists situation, I'm not going to debate you for a second!

And I burst out laughing reading '900th or so total victory'. Good sir, I needed that.

Fat Necron wrote:
Okay, stop you right there, I want to quickly point out that I highly... No; am certain there wouldn't be any Imperial patrols near the targets you listed. I am almost positive any meaningful Navy patrols cover perhaps 5% of the Imperium, and that's being generous. Those patrolled worlds are probably priority roles. Other then that, I like to believe a large Dark Eldar raiding fleet would maul and molest those tiny gun-boats cruising the system.

No insult intended, I work under the notion the Imperium is the rustic bureaucratic machine constantly implied in the lore. Part of me wonders how they even counter Dark Eldar raids, besides good ole lady luck... But she's probably in bed with the Emperor. ANYWAY!

Back on topic, do you think there'd be a certain goal the raiding party would need to reach? Yea, if the raiders are there for a month, I'd say they're safe from a counter-offensive but any longer... Well, not even the Imperium procrastinates that much. I'd assume there be a contingent of Space Marines inbound at that point, if there's any near by.

Now, I want to talk a bit abut logistics: Do you think the hired outcast could be trusted to provide the specific logistics for targets? I'm just assuming the raiders would target large concentrations of people. So, geography, urban terrain, all the nitty-gritty. Given they're type of Eldar, I'm assuming (I know I know, I'm assuming too much) there's a meticulous side to them. Every bit of information that hastens the raid while maximizing take is just gravy.

Oh, and to correct myself up top; I said the Imperium would begin mobilizing an offensive in a month because it's a Xeno incursion. From what I read, no Xeno's goes uncheck. I'd wager you'd have Naval and Guard contingents who get the message and race on over. Screw the grinding politics, they're xeno's.

OH! Another question: Would the Dark Eldar target the Astropath's or do they even know about them?

Perhaps what he meant was less Navy patrols and more the patrols of the local PDF forces (which can include voidships). In most of the fluff for the DEldar, their raids are depicted as close-proximity swarms of small skimmers that dart in, grab their prize and get out before bigger fish come to play. Depending on the ambitiousness of the Raid, that might be a single settlement or an entire planet.

In the spirit of the IoM being basically a feudalistic society in space, I'd say that a large proportion of their military forces are local private armies of planetary governors, which in a significant number of cases are probably perfectly capable of defending themselves. Sort of like a local lord's armies as opposed to the campaigning king's forces of the IG.

I would however think that Dark Eldar would be highly unlikely to pick a world that could genuinely defend itself. Put up a decent fight yeah, but not really potentially win, so the above is probably moot in that case.

Eldar have been depicted as having eidetic memories so I expect the sort of detailed scouting information you're talking about would be easy to procure in that respect. On the other hand, it's massively hazardous for an Eldar to be wandering around your average xeno-burning Imperial world even when camouflaged. They'd probably pass for human in the vastly expanded meaning of the word in the 41st millennium,but the price for being caught would be extreme. Still, I'd expect detailed scouting of any sort to be commonplace.

Mobilisation of forces to respond to the threat would probably be entirely dependent on the value of the world in distress and the proximity of forces. The whole xenophobia thing strikes me as a dogma instilled in the public to ensure they don't go cavorting with xenos. The higher-ups, while still thoroughly xenophobic, likely don't exhibit the same sort of frothing maniacal fervour required to indiscriminately send fleets to combat xenos threats simply because they're xenos. Especially when it might simply be more cost-effective to let the inhabitants die and then ship over a fresh load of colonists afterwards.

Oh, and I doubt DEldar would be interested in astropaths much. Certainly not for bringing back to Commorragh as there's a blanket ban on psykers there (although I'd anticipate some sort of black market supplying...refined...tastes).

However, they could well be good fun for torturing into transmitting the psychic death-screams of a planet to all nearby systems. That sounds like the sort of thing the Dark Eldar would find most amusing

Fat Necron wrote:


But considering the sheer size of a Hive City? Even though Space Marines can operate without rest or resupply (Murdering with their bare hands) I still can't believe they can comb through a Hive City in a month or two. These are mega-cities stacked upon mega-cities. Say they do miss a few targets, this is still an entire hive that told the Imperium to go feth-themselves. In the cultists situation, I'm not going to debate you for a second!

And I burst out laughing reading '900th or so total victory'. Good sir, I needed that.

Not simply how large hive cities are, but how heavily armed the populace is. If we take Necromunda as an example then there are a massive number of gangs running around with anything ranging from stub pistols (not very effective) to lascannons (that's more like it). I suspect 1000 Marines would experience pretty much terminal casualties attempting to storm a single level of a hive as militarised as Necromunda.

Here is how Space Marines, including just a single company of ~100, would pacify a planet like Earth.

First off, they would have a couple warships with them. They would have orbital superiority, and orbital bombardment capability.

If there were a few dozen individual countries on this hypothetical planet, what would happen is an ultimatum would be given. If they didn't surrender, the Space Marines would then conduct a series of lightning strike missions.

The Company might do a large scale drop pod assault against the leader's of a specific country with the goal of assassinating or capturing them. With a quick evacuation afterwards. They would then keep conducting lightning attacks against any leadership that emerges using drop pods till surrender is achieved. Assuming the initial shock of being attacked by super humans from space isn't enough the first time.

Rinse and repeat for all resisting factions.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Here is how Space Marines, including just a single company of ~100, would pacify a planet like Earth.

First off, they would have a couple warships with them. They would have orbital superiority, and orbital bombardment capability.

If there were a few dozen individual countries on this hypothetical planet, what would happen is an ultimatum would be given. If they didn't surrender, the Space Marines would then conduct a series of lightning strike missions.

The Company might do a large scale drop pod assault against the leader's of a specific country with the goal of assassinating or capturing them. With a quick evacuation afterwards. They would then keep conducting lightning attacks against any leadership that emerges using drop pods till surrender is achieved. Assuming the initial shock of being attacked by super humans from space isn't enough the first time.

Rinse and repeat for all resisting factions.

The difficulty with pacification via bombardment and surgical strikes against leadership is it's a terrible, terrible way of pacifying a population. It's basically been the US strategy in the middle-east for quite some time now and has proven remarkably ineffective. Effective against states I'm sure. Against a massive population of violent armed gangers with no ties to the state (i.e. the majority of the 40k human population) it would be pretty much completely ineffective.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Perhaps what he meant was less Navy patrols and more the patrols of the local PDF forces (which can include voidships). In most of the fluff for the DEldar, their raids are depicted as close-proximity swarms of small skimmers that dart in, grab their prize and get out before bigger fish come to play. Depending on the ambitiousness of the Raid, that might be a single settlement or an entire planet.

In the spirit of the IoM being basically a feudalistic society in space, I'd say that a large proportion of their military forces are local private armies of planetary governors, which in a significant number of cases are probably perfectly capable of defending themselves. Sort of like a local lord's armies as opposed to the campaigning king's forces of the IG.

I would however think that Dark Eldar would be highly unlikely to pick a world that could genuinely defend itself. Put up a decent fight yeah, but not really potentially win, so the above is probably moot in that case.

Eldar have been depicted as having eidetic memories so I expect the sort of detailed scouting information you're talking about would be easy to procure in that respect. On the other hand, it's massively hazardous for an Eldar to be wandering around your average xeno-burning Imperial world even when camouflaged. They'd probably pass for human in the vastly expanded meaning of the word in the 41st millennium,but the price for being caught would be extreme. Still, I'd expect detailed scouting of any sort to be commonplace.

Mobilisation of forces to respond to the threat would probably be entirely dependent on the value of the world in distress and the proximity of forces. The whole xenophobia thing strikes me as a dogma instilled in the public to ensure they don't go cavorting with xenos. The higher-ups, while still thoroughly xenophobic, likely don't exhibit the same sort of frothing maniacal fervour required to indiscriminately send fleets to combat xenos threats simply because they're xenos. Especially when it might simply be more cost-effective to let the inhabitants die and then ship over a fresh load of colonists afterwards.

Oh, and I doubt DEldar would be interested in astropaths much. Certainly not for bringing back to Commorragh as there's a blanket ban on psykers there (although I'd anticipate some sort of black market supplying...refined...tastes).

However, they could well be good fun for torturing into transmitting the psychic death-screams of a planet to all nearby systems. That sounds like the sort of thing the Dark Eldar would find most amusing

Part of me hopes you one day get hired by Geedubs to make a book of sense, clearing up all these oversights. I know the IG and IN are separate entities but I forgot the PDF aren't under those restrictions. So a planetary governor, or even a few having their own void faring vessels isn't out of the question. Even then, you're not wrong, they wouldn't target a planet that could possibly defeat them, even in the unlikeliest of ways.

Feel free to tar and feather me but I'd wager the Dark Eldar have operatives beyond their own species. We already established Outcasts could be utilized, why not other types of brigands? Human pirates, possibly even rogue traders wouldn't be entirely out of the question. The Dark Eldar could easily threaten them but part of me believes they're above that. All the trinkets they undoubtedly come across would easily bribe a Rogue Trader dynasty, even a lowly ship captain. So under the right direction, it seems more likely they'd have human elements to acquire such information. Like you said, trotting along the peasantry with pointed ears and funky eyes would earn quite the lynching. I don't think the Eldar would be considered a xeno's, more so a mutant.

Astropaths can send out warnings and messages. While I agree there's a special place for them in Commorragh, there might be caution if a choir, or even one is discovered. The idea of death cries is always fun but the more maluable ones... Hmm, I can see an Archon breaking and manipulating one for future gains. You know, sending out misinformation.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Here is how Space Marines, including just a single company of ~100, would pacify a planet like Earth.

First off, they would have a couple warships with them. They would have orbital superiority, and orbital bombardment capability.

If there were a few dozen individual countries on this hypothetical planet, what would happen is an ultimatum would be given. If they didn't surrender, the Space Marines would then conduct a series of lightning strike missions.

The Company might do a large scale drop pod assault against the leader's of a specific country with the goal of assassinating or capturing them. With a quick evacuation afterwards. They would then keep conducting lightning attacks against any leadership that emerges using drop pods till surrender is achieved. Assuming the initial shock of being attacked by super humans from space isn't enough the first time.

Rinse and repeat for all resisting factions.

From too many sources all over the Lexiconam(Spelling?) Hives cities are equipped with void shields, so orbital bombardment is out of the question.

After the first drop pods, and even if they succeeded, it doesn't mean victory. Sure, you've disorganized the rebels but that's why there's tiers of command and there's only so many drop pods. That tactic may only work once cause contrary to popular belief, bad guys can adapt.

If it's a whole world rebelling, yea, threats work. You couldn't rebel if the cities without shields are bombed. Also, don't forget how tedious performing said bombardment is. The notion sounds simple enough but the preparation to preform it is mind numbing. It's usually easier to make examples but that goes back to threats.

Hive Cities and taking them are entirely different ball games. Not only are they labyrinths but like Ynnead said, some hives are ridiculously armed to the teeth. Simply sending in a hundred Space Marines is basically throwing away a hundred Space Marines.

Haha thanks

I don't mind OTT silliness with the grimdark stuff, but I do like the idea that if you drill down into the nitty gritty it actually makes a reasonable amount of sense. Enough to prove that you've done your homework at least

I like the idea of Dark Eldar using xenos (to them) operatives. I've read a number of times that Commorragh is actually relatively multicultural as far as places in the 40k universe go. Sure everyone's beneath the Dark Eldar, but there are populations of xenos living as mercs and slaves all over. And you're right, they'd wind up with a massive amount of worthless (to them) trinkets with which to barter intelligence with humans. That's not to mention simply the offer of annihilating one's enemies and leaving you be, however untrustworthy that bargain might be.

Oh, and just to say that while the idea of lightning strikes to destabilise leadership would probably be completely ineffectual against a hive...it is the absolute perfect tactic against Orks. Their social structure basically dictates that if a powerful warboss is killed and another isn't readily apparent as the next biggest git, they'll basically start krumpin' each other until another warboss emerges from the top of the melee.

1000-man Astartes Chapters: terrible against humans. Great against Orks.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Here is how Space Marines, including just a single company of ~100, would pacify a planet like Earth.

First off, they would have a couple warships with them. They would have orbital superiority, and orbital bombardment capability.

If there were a few dozen individual countries on this hypothetical planet, what would happen is an ultimatum would be given. If they didn't surrender, the Space Marines would then conduct a series of lightning strike missions.

The Company might do a large scale drop pod assault against the leader's of a specific country with the goal of assassinating or capturing them. With a quick evacuation afterwards. They would then keep conducting lightning attacks against any leadership that emerges using drop pods till surrender is achieved. Assuming the initial shock of being attacked by super humans from space isn't enough the first time.

Rinse and repeat for all resisting factions.

The difficulty with pacification via bombardment and surgical strikes against leadership is it's a terrible, terrible way of pacifying a population. It's basically been the US strategy in the middle-east for quite some time now and has proven remarkably ineffective. Effective against states I'm sure. Against a massive population of violent armed gangers with no ties to the state (i.e. the majority of the 40k human population) it would be pretty much completely ineffective.

Sure, but the US army isn't made up of Super Humans who arrive in what basically amounts to meteors. Also, it's incorrect that most of the 40k population is Hive Gangers. Most will actually be fairly normal people.

The marine scenario seems to assume that the leadership will all gather in a few easily identifiable locations, and just sit there, waiting to die.

In terms of comparative technological advancement the US army might as well be. Still not a taxtic that has met with any form of success.

I'll agree that the majority of the human population of 40k probably aren't gangers. What passes for an economy in 40k would collapse. However, the main population centres are hives, which will have a similar level of gang activity to necromumda. Still not looking great for Marines.

So what we end up in is the situation where a marine chapter is incapable of pacifying a hive where their superhuman abilities might actually be required, but are more than capable of pacifying your average agri-world where their superhuman abilities are completely wasted.

Just to make it clear, i actually have no real issue with te idea that marine chapters are 1000-strong and mainly conduct surgical strikes and other special forces stuff. I only really find it unlikely that 1000-strong chapters are able to pacify worlds by themselves without the backup of large numbers of unnamed serfs and/or IG regiments accompanying them.

That makes a hell of a lot more sense

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Haha thanks

I don't mind OTT silliness with the grimdark stuff, but I do like the idea that if you drill down into the nitty gritty it actually makes a reasonable amount of sense. Enough to prove that you've done your homework at least

I like the idea of Dark Eldar using xenos (to them) operatives. I've read a number of times that Commorragh is actually relatively multicultural as far as places in the 40k universe go. Sure everyone's beneath the Dark Eldar, but there are populations of xenos living as mercs and slaves all over. And you're right, they'd wind up with a massive amount of worthless (to them) trinkets with which to barter intelligence with humans. That's not to mention simply the offer of annihilating one's enemies and leaving you be, however untrustworthy that bargain might be.

Oh, and just to say that while the idea of lightning strikes to destabilise leadership would probably be completely ineffectual against a hive...it is the absolute perfect tactic against Orks. Their social structure basically dictates that if a powerful warboss is killed and another isn't readily apparent as the next biggest git, they'll basically start krumpin' each other until another warboss emerges from the top of the melee.

1000-man Astartes Chapters: terrible against humans. Great against Orks.

I've shamelessly dedicated part of my life wholly to Warhammer. It's these topics that further ingrain me into the universe. At first glance, humans and DE working together is ludacris but when you observe the finer details, it becomes more believable. Gods knows I'd take a treasure chest full of rubies, diamonds, and a pretty tiara in exchange for giving them information at the planets local library. I'm human, God-Emperor dammit, would you expect any less?

Further elaborating, if you're a Rogue Trader, after the DE have finished raping and pillaging the populace, there's quite a few gains. They could arrive as a relief effort, helping those poor few who escaped... While doing a bit of off the record looting. Further credence on why a human would easily betray their own.

I've actually been debating on whether or not Orks, Humans, possibly even Hereteks operate in Commorragh or the outside region... Damn, I forget what it's called. It's a neat idea, anyway. Imagine what the already Grimdark Mechanicus could do with DE technology. Makes me shiver a bit.

 Frazzled wrote:
The marine scenario seems to assume that the leadership will all gather in a few easily identifiable locations, and just sit there, waiting to die.

They also don't account for the depth of penetration for the drop pods. Hive cities are remarkably dense regions. (I'm calling it a region cause, well, it's a man-made mountain). Say you do use the drop pods and a wall of titanium is slap dab in it's way. Well, the pod is turned into a burning rubble of plasteel and Gene-Seed. There's just too many variables with drop pods on Hive Cities. To me, the notion is far too dangerous.

Oh, and don't forget that you're also leaving the Space Marines stranded in an incredibly hostile environment. It's the usual deal but unlike Orks, humans are a touch more organized. So while killing the warboss works, killing a key figure or two doesn't do the trick. Yea, they completed their objective but how in the hell do you get them out, or rather, the gene-seed out? Cause as we've discussed, it's essentially a one way trip.

Marines never take a planet by themselves.

100 marines (or insert marine number here) + 10 million guardsmen (most likely, much, much more) + Imperial navy support... = planet taken and then the propaganda saying;

'MARINES TAKE PLANET!!!'

Going off the assumption a Tomb World has, lets say 40-60 Billion Infantry elements (Considering it's a freaking entire planet-sized stasis chamber!) and various vehicles; what do you guys think the awakening might look like? Would it be a sudden but ponderous storm of silent, mechanical men slaying millions or would there be stages before taking the world?

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I would however think that Dark Eldar would be highly unlikely to pick a world that could genuinely defend itself. Put up a decent fight yeah, but not really potentially win, so the above is probably moot in that case.

The swarms of Raiders swooping in to get their targets then get out again is often just that - lightning strikes before the PDF even has time to react. The Dark Eldar don't usually start anything looking like a war because they'll be walking home if anyone with a weapon better than a lasgun gets a chance to shoot at their transports. Whoever gathered and "commands" the raid wants to get out with as much potential gain as possible in order to increase his status and wealth. That requires him to get as many crews as possible out, as heavily loaded as they can be and still fly. The double-dealing nature of the race will ofc still see occasions where someone fed false info to another so he'd take needless losses and lose face. They like spreading fear, they like loot and slaves, they do not like taking losses (though a competing Archon getting blown out of the sky IS hilarious).

Slaughtering guards that get in the way, no problem. Taking out a local communications post before it broadcasts a call for help, makes sense. Attacking a heavily defended position for no gain other than a fight? Probably not.

I think part of the issue is that you're giving the people on an average planet too much credit.

Many people in the Imperium have never left the city they were born in, much less the planet, and will never see a Space Marine. Heck, many people consider them myths, tales of legends from long ago of incredible beings. You compare them to US military when a better comparison would be to Olympian Gods; beings of such power and authority that they can (and do) wipe entire planets from existence without the planet ever knowing that they did it. They just live their lives harvesting or working for the authority, who in a lot of cases may be the only group aware of the existence of the Imperium as more than a figurative narrative or fictional story.

There's a comic in one of the 40K books where a tribe elder is telling a story around a fireplace of a ancient battle that took place long ago. A great group of demons rose from the ground and began to attack the people, defeated only at the end by a group of angels that descended from above and used the wrath of the heavens to save the world. The comic ends with the group chanting prayers and pointing to the night sky, the crater from the Exterminatus and wreckage of the Necron Monolith surrounding them.

I really loved that comic because it shows how the average Imperial citizen is nothing, NOTHING in the grand scheme of things. This Hive World or whatever it was got knocked back into the stone age after the Necron/SM battle, all of it's technology and power lost and it's history now nothing more than myth and legend.

Yeaah absolutely on the greediness of humans front from a realpolitik angle they wouldn't need all of the massive dogma behind 'cavort with xenos and you're dead meat' if it wasn't a common enough occurance to require it. Faith, zeal and propaganda are tools with which regimes enforce their rule, not traits of individuals. They are cultivated for a reason...

I like the idea of a particularly radical Rogue Trader carving a trade from providing the Dark Eldar with target and then offering their services as humanitarian aid after. It's basically Hero Syndrome, but as a business venture

Absolutely agree with you both Otto and Necron that marines are only every effective as support for larger IG forces, and likely the reason we only hear about Marines is because of their other main purpose: their usefulness as inspirational propaganda icons to galvanise the populace into action.

The thing that springs to mind is still that a company of 100 Marines is utterly pointless even of they are as backup to billions of guardsmen. It's just an utterly insignificant number on a war of that scale, regardless of how they're used or how superhuman they are. They'd get wiped out by the opening volley of a fraction of the opposing army even if they were armed with lasguns, let alone some of the weaponry in 40k that's perfectly capable of killing a Marine stone-dead in one shot...

100,000 per company makes a little more sense for a planetary-scale war, given that each company tends to operate independently. I suspect one of the reasons 100 was chosen is probably some idea that you could feasibly collect a whole company's worth of models, which is a neat enough idea

Mortarion's Herald wrote:
I think part of the issue is that you're giving the people on an average planet too much credit.

Many people in the Imperium have never left the city they were born in, much less the planet, and will never see a Space Marine. Heck, many people consider them myths, tales of legends from long ago of incredible beings. You compare them to US military when a better comparison would be to Olympian Gods; beings of such power and authority that they can (and do) wipe entire planets from existence without the planet ever knowing that they did it. They just live their lives harvesting or working for the authority, who in a lot of cases may be the only group aware of the existence of the Imperium as more than a figurative narrative or fictional story.

There's a comic in one of the 40K books where a tribe elder is telling a story around a fireplace of a ancient battle that took place long ago. A great group of demons rose from the ground and began to attack the people, defeated only at the end by a group of angels that descended from above and used the wrath of the heavens to save the world. The comic ends with the group chanting prayers and pointing to the night sky, the crater from the Exterminatus and wreckage of the Necron Monolith surrounding them.

I really loved that comic because it shows how the average Imperial citizen is nothing, NOTHING in the grand scheme of things. This Hive World or whatever it was got knocked back into the stone age after the Necron/SM battle, all of it's technology and power lost and it's history now nothing more than myth and legend.

Firstly, hail Apostle of Nurgle, Herald of the Plague Prince, and Minister of Decay!

Formalities out of the way, we're referring to an average Imperial World that's technologically advanced and relatively educated. While you're not wrong, I'd rather not treat the average PDF as bumbling morons who never held a gun. We're giving them credit cause they're still soldiers, who are trained to, well, kill. There's a certain fear when those very myths of Space Marines step are plummeting from the sky, there's still a hundred or a thousand of them and a hundred times more of you. Simply put, those marines aren't surviving the road ahead. It'll take a few weeks, possibly months but facts are facts.

Please, for Warp sake, tell me what this comic was!

Spetulhu wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I would however think that Dark Eldar would be highly unlikely to pick a world that could genuinely defend itself. Put up a decent fight yeah, but not really potentially win, so the above is probably moot in that case.

The swarms of Raiders swooping in to get their targets then get out again is often just that - lightning strikes before the PDF even has time to react. The Dark Eldar don't usually start anything looking like a war because they'll be walking home if anyone with a weapon better than a lasgun gets a chance to shoot at their transports. Whoever gathered and "commands" the raid wants to get out with as much potential gain as possible in order to increase his status and wealth. That requires him to get as many crews as possible out, as heavily loaded as they can be and still fly. The double-dealing nature of the race will ofc still see occasions where someone fed false info to another so he'd take needless losses and lose face. They like spreading fear, they like loot and slaves, they do not like taking losses (though a competing Archon getting blown out of the sky IS hilarious).

Slaughtering guards that get in the way, no problem. Taking out a local communications post before it broadcasts a call for help, makes sense. Attacking a heavily defended position for no gain other than a fight? Probably not.

Absolutely

The way i justify tabletop battles against equal opponents is that they're only ever a diversionary force sent to draw away the defenders while the real raid is taking place elsewhere

Mortarion's Herald wrote:
I think part of the issue is that you're giving the people on an average planet too much credit.

Many people in the Imperium have never left the city they were born in, much less the planet, and will never see a Space Marine. Heck, many people consider them myths, tales of legends from long ago of incredible beings. You compare them to US military when a better comparison would be to Olympian Gods; beings of such power and authority that they can (and do) wipe entire planets from existence without the planet ever knowing that they did it. They just live their lives harvesting or working for the authority, who in a lot of cases may be the only group aware of the existence of the Imperium as more than a figurative narrative or fictional story.

There's a comic in one of the 40K books where a tribe elder is telling a story around a fireplace of a ancient battle that took place long ago. A great group of demons rose from the ground and began to attack the people, defeated only at the end by a group of angels that descended from above and used the wrath of the heavens to save the world. The comic ends with the group chanting prayers and pointing to the night sky, the crater from the Exterminatus and wreckage of the Necron Monolith surrounding them.

I really loved that comic because it shows how the average Imperial citizen is nothing, NOTHING in the grand scheme of things. This Hive World or whatever it was got knocked back into the stone age after the Necron/SM battle, all of it's technology and power lost and it's history now nothing more than myth and legend.

Agreed actually i too love the notion that the majority of the human population of the galaxy is basically absolutely nothing. So far below the realms of Space Marines as to not even be comparable.

However, the thing is that Marines would never in a million years be sent to pacify such a world if they were truly in as short a supply as suggested. Catastrophic waste of resources when the Imperium can just sod the lowlife inhabitants and ship colonists in later when the Guard have mopped up.

Marines would only be required where the Guard are not capable of defeating the threat, such as in a hive chock full of armed gangers (which is also a significant proportion of the Imperium's population). It's precisely this threat that 100 Marines is woefully inadequate to respond to.

So, for pacifying planets Marines are next to useless. The ones they can pacify are not worth the effort, and the ones that are will result in 100 Marines quite promptly being filled with holes.

Next option is to use them for genuine warfare. Here they're better suited where their surgical strikes could actually disrupt command, but again their numbers are too few for them to have an effect in a planetary scale conflict.

Also, seconded in wanting to know where that comic can be found. Sounds sweet!

Taking over a planet doesn't need to be that hard actually. It gets more difficult if the planet is divided in different states, but if it has one, unified leadership then it is a simple matter of using a few targeted strikes to take that out. Install a new leadership and done.

Apart from the Imperial Guard, Orks and Tyranids who swarm a planet with numbers, all other factions do it like this. Surgical strikes to cut off the head, and then the body will die.

 Frazzled wrote:
The marine scenario seems to assume that the leadership will all gather in a few easily identifiable locations, and just sit there, waiting to die.

Actually, gathering in a few easily identifiable locations is exactly what leaderships tend to do...
And when they see that drop pod coming in from space or that web way portal opening above their heads it is already far too late to run...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Marines would only be required where the Guard are not capable of defeating the threat, such as in a hive chock full of armed gangers (which is also a significant proportion of the Imperium's population). It's precisely this threat that 100 Marines is woefully inadequate to respond to.

The hive scenario would actually be excellent for Marines. The gangers aren't unified, do not possess much in the way of actually dangerous weapons (not to Marines at least) and in the hive's narrow corridors their numbers advantage would be meaningless. The Marines would be able to to purge the hive corridor by corridor without much resistance (though it would take a huge amount of time). It is also important to consider morale in this. What is a lowly ganger going to do when being confronted by a force of legendary demi-gods of war? Is he going to fight them and die a certain death? Of course not, he will panick and try to flee. Now if all the gangers were heroes and would all attack the Marines without fear, they'd stand a chance. But all the gangers think only about saving their own skin, not about the fact that if half of them were to sacrifice themselves in battle, then the other half might be able to take down the Marines.

In battle, morale is much more important than numbers or equipment. Small, ill-equipped forces can easily defeat much larger much better equipped opponents if their organisation is better and their morale is higher. Real-life examples are the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union and recently the ISIS conquest of much of Iraq and Syria. Human psychology works such that once you get one enemy or group of enemies to panick and rout (which isn't hard if you get the drop on them and their morale is low), the rest of the army will follow them. That is why a good organisation and leaders are so important. They can rally the troops. If such a leader is not there, the army basically collapses.

If marine vessels enter orbit, the leadership is not going to remain at the Kremlin, but instead seek alternate locations.

Additionally, if they didn't it would be better just to nuke the sites, thus making marines themselves irrelevant.

Funny you mention Iraq and Syria as those are textbook examples of why it doesn't work to wipe out a government, install your own and call it a day.

ISIS is also a textbook example of why 'cut off the head and the body will die' is simply fantasy when it comes to pacifying populations in their native lands.

This article explains far better than i can why that's an utter fallacy: https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23531390-700-anatomy-of-terror-what-makes-normal-people-become-extremists/

For the tl;dr crowd it basically boils down to if you indescriminately bomb a civilian-heavy environment and run around killing leadership figures, all you end up doing is radicalising the next generation who surprise suprise utterly hate the people who bombed their families and shot their friends. Hence the cyclical nature of terrorist organisations and violent intervention by the west in the middle east, although there are some really interesting points made about how the idea that terrorist cells are led by charismatic individuals and will dissolve if they're killed has not been borne out at all in practice.

Then again, cyclical rebellion and brutal retaliation by the state sounds exactly like something the IoM would do, so perhaps you're right about that all along

I still thing 100 Marines would be hopelessly outgunned by even one floor of gangers though. Lets say a hive has an even billion people living in it. Lets be generous and say that 1% of that population are violent gangers. That's still 10,000,000 violent gangers. Again, lets be generous to the Marines and say that 1% of those gangers possess weapons like plasma pistols and melta guns that are frighteningly efficient at killing Marines (the actual figures judging by Necromunda fluff is more like 1 in 6). So, we have 100 Marines staring down the barrels of 100,000 plasma pistols and melta guns. One hundred Marines against one hundred thousand weapons specifically designed for killing Marines, wielded by people who although (mostly) not genetically augmented have been using them regularly since a young age, in a place that they know intimately and is unfamiliar to the Marines, which they have been fighting for their entire lives to defend. Not to mention the other 900,000 gangers who are armed with autoguns which will kill a Marine under weight of fire.

Oh, and do you want to be the ganger who can brag to his mates that you killed an Astartes? Hell yeah you do.

Not a chance in hell the Marines are walking out of that one. Simply due to scale.

But now you are bringing the Ganger Lore up against Marine Lore, where in the Lore Marines can be shot with a Plasma Gun and keep going. Even then you still have the issue that not all of those 100,000 Marine Killing Weapons can be brought to bear on the Marines at any given time.

The gangers know that Hive yeah, but that hive is likely just one of many a Marine in a Battle Company will have fought in, they have the experience, the equipment and the augmentics to keep fighting. They will get to chose their fights, and flush the gangers where they want them to go. Bottleneck them, use their numbers against them.

Gangers, unlike the Terrorists you mention, wont be completely dedicated to dying for what ever the cause is. Their cause is different from the Hundreds of other gangs roving the hive, its also gonna fluctuate person to person in those gangs, which are inherently less unified in goal than a terror cell.

Those other gangs will have their own reasons for fighting and hell they might even just see this as a great way to remove their rivals, and what better way then to help the Marines. They will be showing loyalty to the Emperor after all, why would his angels destroy them?

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Funny you mention Iraq and Syria as those are textbook examples of why it doesn't work to wipe out a government, install your own and call it a day.

ISIS is also a textbook example of why 'cut off the head and the body will die' is simply fantasy when it comes to pacifying populations in their native lands.

In 40K fluff's defense, planetary intervention by marines is often only to eliminate or punish certain leadership, for not paying tithes for example, or putting down a specific (rebellion/chaos/Genestealer/other xenos) cult. The body is fine, its the head that needs to be removed or chastised back into line.

Additionally many of the worlds visited are not hive or other major worlds but small colonies on worlds barely habitable (think the colony in Aliens for example, or a colony from Star Trek where the population is less than a million).

In my personal view, when an entire major planet revolts, if the marines are involved, they are only the lead element to take out hard points like planetary defense stations and silos, letting the main IG invasion a clear route in (think Gereon invasion here).but then again, in my personal "fluff" actual chapters are not limited to 1,000, but older legion sized of 10,000 - 100,000. My $.02 only, and thats depreciated in value over the last few years.

 Frazzled wrote:
If marine vessels enter orbit, the leadership is not going to remain at the Kremlin, but instead seek alternate locations.

Additionally, if they didn't it would be better just to nuke the sites, thus making marines themselves irrelevant.

They could also fake out the SM and pretend not to leave the Kremlin equivalent they live in, then detonate it.

Also, one big differerence between the Imperium and the US military is.....err....rules of engagement?

Compare to the roman legions, who also occupied a huge territory and kept the natives suppressed.

The US, for example, does "cut off the head and the body will die". And....it doesnt. The imperial military will happily exterminate the entirety of a world's ruling nobility - or even entire population - in pretty brutal ways.
Of couse, once you start ruling by brutality, you kind of have to keep doing that, but brutality is not something the imperium is short of.

Also if you're going to wipe out the entire population, you don't need marines or IG, just a nice planetary bombardment...