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Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




Iron Hands are kinda boring, don't match their fluff, don't synergize at all, and do worse gunlines than several other chapters. This is a problem to me. Therefore, I suggest replacing their current rules with this:

Chapter Tactics: In addition to 6+ FNP, all abilities that recover wounds within 6" of a character recover an additional wound.

Warlord Trait: Easy. Just make 'Iron Resolve' the unique trait, and make 'Merciless Logic' the generic trait.

Relic: Ditch the psuedo-Relic Blade that's worse than either generic melee relic, bring back the Ironstone. (Tech-Priest only.) Blessing of the Omnissiah restores d6 wounds instead of d3.

Strategem: Allow one vehicle to use the BS of an Iron Hands Character within 6". (The character cannot shoot.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/09 18:36:39


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Sorry but the Axe Of Medusa is actually an excellent melee weapon.

I agree the Warlord trait is stupidly off though. Like, it makes no sense for Iron Hands ya know?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Miles City, MT

Honestly, I would rather just make the CT a 5+ for Dreads, bikes, and infantry and 6+ for all other IH models.

I would then like to make Machine Empathy 3cp. Must be taken before game starts. Works the same as before except it applies to all IH vehicles until end of game. So basically you are paying 3cp to get the stratagem all game for all IH vehicles.

I think if you did these two things it would reasonably simulate a lot of what the IH are, and would mitigate some of their weaknesses without making them op. While I am not a fan of the warlord trait or the relic, I would say leave them for now. Though I would like to see the warlord trait add either another wound or increase the toughness by 1 in addition to the other effect. The relic needs to be something you can take and use with any hq not just techmarines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sorry but the Axe Of Medusa is actually an excellent melee weapon.

I agree the Warlord trait is stupidly off though. Like, it makes no sense for Iron Hands ya know?


I agree and disagree with you. I agree on the warlord trait but disagree on the relic. The relic is good (not great), but it doesn't play in to what the IH really needs. The IH need army buffs not a better relic blade. If we are talking one character buffs, then a survivability buffing relic would be much better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/10 06:52:12


Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car. 
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sorry but the Axe Of Medusa is actually an excellent melee weapon.

I agree the Warlord trait is stupidly off though. Like, it makes no sense for Iron Hands ya know?

The Axe is fine, but not excellent. 2 damage flat is marginally better than d3, but nine times out of ten you're just getting a 16pt discount over a Relic Blade and getting access on models who can't normally bring one.
Compare the Burning Blade, which has low damage but denies literally any Armor Save due to its ridiculously good AP. Or the Teeth of Terra, which grants a unique effect (bonus attacks) and is free. Or the Fist of Vengeance, which is 7pts more than the axe, but has considerably higher Strength and notably better Damage with no drawback.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Waaaghpower wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sorry but the Axe Of Medusa is actually an excellent melee weapon.

I agree the Warlord trait is stupidly off though. Like, it makes no sense for Iron Hands ya know?

The Axe is fine, but not excellent. 2 damage flat is marginally better than d3, but nine times out of ten you're just getting a 16pt discount over a Relic Blade and getting access on models who can't normally bring one.
Compare the Burning Blade, which has low damage but denies literally any Armor Save due to its ridiculously good AP. Or the Teeth of Terra, which grants a unique effect (bonus attacks) and is free. Or the Fist of Vengeance, which is 7pts more than the axe, but has considerably higher Strength and notably better Damage with no drawback.

The Burning Blade is garbage because anything you would want AP5 against either has an Invul or a ridiculous amount of wounds. The Fist Of Vengeance means you're stuck with Crimson Fists/Imperial Fists for Chapter Tactics. Not everyone likes that. Being a super cheap and consistent relic blade is great.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sorry but the Axe Of Medusa is actually an excellent melee weapon.

I agree the Warlord trait is stupidly off though. Like, it makes no sense for Iron Hands ya know?

The Axe is fine, but not excellent. 2 damage flat is marginally better than d3, but nine times out of ten you're just getting a 16pt discount over a Relic Blade and getting access on models who can't normally bring one.
Compare the Burning Blade, which has low damage but denies literally any Armor Save due to its ridiculously good AP. Or the Teeth of Terra, which grants a unique effect (bonus attacks) and is free. Or the Fist of Vengeance, which is 7pts more than the axe, but has considerably higher Strength and notably better Damage with no drawback.

The Burning Blade is garbage because anything you would want AP5 against either has an Invul or a ridiculous amount of wounds. The Fist Of Vengeance means you're stuck with Crimson Fists/Imperial Fists for Chapter Tactics. Not everyone likes that. Being a super cheap and consistent relic blade is great.

Again, it's *fine* but it offers nothing unique. I'll agree that the Burning Blade is a lackluster weapon most of the time, but it fills a niche that nobody else has access to.
Every other relic either provides a unique ability that can't be gained from another source, or else a significant increase in effectiveness over any equivalent option. Some of them are arguably weaker, but none of them can effectively be acquired by spending an extra 16 points.
It's *fine*, but when my Relics are limited to 1 for free or up to 3 if I'm willing to burn my Command Points... I'm just gonna take the Teeth of Terra, or the Armor Indomnitus, or the Shield Eternal, and I'll spend the 16pts for my Axe of Medusa-equivalent.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




It's a niche that does nothing. That's the issue with the Burning Blade. At least if it had Shred or did multiple damage it would be something. However it isn't.

That also depends how much you're spending on the HQ in the first place. You get to save a ton on your Relic Blade basically with that relic. The reliability AND cheapness makes it so good. That 16 points you talk about are easily another Combi-Weapon or Plasma Gun. That is great in the long run.

Though honestly I'd rather Traitors Bane came back instead of the Axe because a relic Combi-Melta would just be cooler in of itself.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's a niche that does nothing. That's the issue with the Burning Blade. At least if it had Shred or did multiple damage it would be something. However it isn't.

That also depends how much you're spending on the HQ in the first place. You get to save a ton on your Relic Blade basically with that relic. The reliability AND cheapness makes it so good. That 16 points you talk about are easily another Combi-Weapon or Plasma Gun. That is great in the long run.

Though honestly I'd rather Traitors Bane came back instead of the Axe because a relic Combi-Melta would just be cooler in of itself.

Sure. Not disagreeing that it sucks.

But if you're going for cheap... Just take the Teeth of Terra? Equally reliable damage, but d3 bonus attacks. All you lose is one S and one AP, but S6 is only better than S5 against a specific niche of enemies and most stuff worth killing will have a 5+ Invuln or better anyways.
   
Made in us
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Miles City, MT

I have been thinking on the warlord trait merciless logic, and I think it should be this:

Merciless Logic
Warlord gets +1 toughness. Whenever a model 6 inches or less away from the warlord (including the warlord), with the key words "Iron Hands," rolls a 6+ on a to hit roll with a weapon (shooting or close combat) that model gets an extra attack with that weapon. Extra attacks can not generate more extra attacks.

This would help compensate for the lack of alphabet soup named characters with cheap special abilities most armies have access to.

Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car. 
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




 NorseSig wrote:
I have been thinking on the warlord trait merciless logic, and I think it should be this:

Merciless Logic
Warlord gets +1 toughness. Whenever a model 6 inches or less away from the warlord (including the warlord), with the key words "Iron Hands," rolls a 6+ on a to hit roll with a weapon (shooting or close combat) that model gets an extra attack with that weapon. Extra attacks can not generate more extra attacks.

This would help compensate for the lack of alphabet soup named characters with cheap special abilities most armies have access to.

Nope nope nope nope. Way too powerful.
Consider this:
Take a Land Raider Excelsior, a Rhino Primaris, and ten Hellblasters.
Make the Land Raider your warlord.
Give the Hellblasters a +1 To-Hit from the Rhino. (Who is LoS screened by your T9 Land Raider Warlord.)

You're now getting, on average, 13 or 26 Plasma hits from ten models depending on Rapid Fire range, 5 Lascannon hits, and 5 Grav hits. For the record, that's a crapton of extra hits - About 30% more, to be precise.
   
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Miles City, MT

And Guilliman isn't too powerful? And I said models so it wouldn't cover the entire unit. Just what fits within the range. But I suppose it could be made for himself and one other unit each turn/round whatever. And of course the +1 to toughness. Honestly I wouldn't mind IH being top dog instead of bottom of the barrel for a change.

Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car. 
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




 NorseSig wrote:
And Guilliman isn't too powerful? And I said models so it wouldn't cover the entire unit. Just what fits within the range. But I suppose it could be made for himself and one other unit each turn/round whatever. And of course the +1 to toughness. Honestly I wouldn't mind IH being top dog instead of bottom of the barrel for a change.

You mean... Like most of 7th edition, when Smashfather was one of the cheesiest/best models available?

Guilliman is definitely too powerful, I'm not arguing that, I'm just saying that having TWO overpowered units isn't gonna fix anything.
   
Made in gb
Fireknife Shas'el




Saff-end, mate.

 NorseSig wrote:
And Guilliman isn't too powerful? And I said models so it wouldn't cover the entire unit. Just what fits within the range. But I suppose it could be made for himself and one other unit each turn/round whatever. And of course the +1 to toughness. Honestly I wouldn't mind IH being top dog instead of bottom of the barrel for a change.
And Iron Hands WEREN'T one of the best Chapter Tactics in 6th/7th? I mean, from what I could gather, they were in the top three, with White Scars and Ultramarines IMO. They were pretty solid, and they're not exactly terrible now. Just because they can't take Guilliman doesn't nerf them to the ground, and we shouldn't look at making a second Guilliman either. Balance Guilliman first before buffing things to his standard.

The +1 Toughness makes them VERY durable now, far better than every before (due to the changes in wounding) - imagine that with a Captain on Bike? Very powerful.
Also, even with your "whatever fits in range" - that's not hard to do with a Land Raider when it's your HQ.

Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
Join the Crion Crusade: I think it's the combination of butt jokes, democratic necrons, explosions, and mind-fething that draws people to this Crusade like moths to a bug zapper - War Kitten
Rippy wrote:Never forgetti, template spaghetti.
DR:90S++G++MB+IPw40k07-D++A++/sWD366R++T(F)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Waaaghpower wrote:
 NorseSig wrote:
And Guilliman isn't too powerful? And I said models so it wouldn't cover the entire unit. Just what fits within the range. But I suppose it could be made for himself and one other unit each turn/round whatever. And of course the +1 to toughness. Honestly I wouldn't mind IH being top dog instead of bottom of the barrel for a change.

You mean... Like most of 7th edition, when Smashfather was one of the cheesiest/best models available?

Guilliman is definitely too powerful, I'm not arguing that, I'm just saying that having TWO overpowered units isn't gonna fix anything.

Smashfether and Smashbane weren't cheese. They were just really good.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




In My Lab

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 NorseSig wrote:
And Guilliman isn't too powerful? And I said models so it wouldn't cover the entire unit. Just what fits within the range. But I suppose it could be made for himself and one other unit each turn/round whatever. And of course the +1 to toughness. Honestly I wouldn't mind IH being top dog instead of bottom of the barrel for a change.

You mean... Like most of 7th edition, when Smashfather was one of the cheesiest/best models available?

Guilliman is definitely too powerful, I'm not arguing that, I'm just saying that having TWO overpowered units isn't gonna fix anything.

Smashfether and Smashbane weren't cheese. They were just really good.


2+/3++/2+++ is "Just really good"?

No. They were cheese.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




 JNAProductions wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 NorseSig wrote:
And Guilliman isn't too powerful? And I said models so it wouldn't cover the entire unit. Just what fits within the range. But I suppose it could be made for himself and one other unit each turn/round whatever. And of course the +1 to toughness. Honestly I wouldn't mind IH being top dog instead of bottom of the barrel for a change.

You mean... Like most of 7th edition, when Smashfather was one of the cheesiest/best models available?

Guilliman is definitely too powerful, I'm not arguing that, I'm just saying that having TWO overpowered units isn't gonna fix anything.

Smashfether and Smashbane weren't cheese. They were just really good.


2+/3++/2+++ is "Just really good"?

No. They were cheese.

2++ rerollable 2+++, you mean. Gotta add psychic powers to your deathstar.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Miles City, MT

 JNAProductions wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 NorseSig wrote:
And Guilliman isn't too powerful? And I said models so it wouldn't cover the entire unit. Just what fits within the range. But I suppose it could be made for himself and one other unit each turn/round whatever. And of course the +1 to toughness. Honestly I wouldn't mind IH being top dog instead of bottom of the barrel for a change.

You mean... Like most of 7th edition, when Smashfather was one of the cheesiest/best models available?

Guilliman is definitely too powerful, I'm not arguing that, I'm just saying that having TWO overpowered units isn't gonna fix anything.

Smashfether and Smashbane weren't cheese. They were just really good.


2+/3++/2+++ is "Just really good"?

No. They were cheese.


And yet smash couldn't measure up to the other deathstar cheese out there or eldar. One decent build does not make for a good codex or army. Outside of smash IH had squat. In the cluster that was 7th, IH just couldn't even compete.

And I would argue that guilliman isn't the only issue. UM also have a whole alphabet of unique characters. Most armies have at least one unique character who has special wargear (better than average), and at least one unique ability all for dirt cheap. Some armies like UM have 3 or more.

Smash was also an abomination. He was so out of character as to what the IH are supposed to be. And if you played IH in a competitive environment you were FORCED to play him even if you didn't want to if you wanted a snowballs chance. Just like you were forced into Gladius. Though the gladius was easier to swallow as it was technically tank heavy, but it just felt kinda dirty using it. Even though it really only evened the playing field. Annihilation Strike force felt in line with the IH only because you have guys with heavy weapons able to fire as if the heavy weapons were bolters. A walking mobile gun line slowly advancing on the enemy decimating all in it's path felt Iron Handsy.

There are times if I wonder if the CT should have been the 6+ and the machine empathy ability spread to all IH models, and the Stratagem something like pay 1 cp and choose 3 vehicles in the shooting phase before they fire. Choose before rolling to reroll either all failed hits or failed wounds for these vehicles until end of the shooting phase. Maybe even a 3cp stratagem that lets a person take dreads in any of the battlefield role slots giving them access to all the special traits associated to that slot (like be taken as the warlord and given a warlord trait for example).

Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 JNAProductions wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 NorseSig wrote:
And Guilliman isn't too powerful? And I said models so it wouldn't cover the entire unit. Just what fits within the range. But I suppose it could be made for himself and one other unit each turn/round whatever. And of course the +1 to toughness. Honestly I wouldn't mind IH being top dog instead of bottom of the barrel for a change.

You mean... Like most of 7th edition, when Smashfather was one of the cheesiest/best models available?

Guilliman is definitely too powerful, I'm not arguing that, I'm just saying that having TWO overpowered units isn't gonna fix anything.

Smashfether and Smashbane weren't cheese. They were just really good.


2+/3++/2+++ is "Just really good"?

No. They were cheese.

You had to have an Apothecary and correct Warlord trait for that to occur. You're blowing it way out of proportion.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




In My Lab

5+ apothecary.
4+ IH trait
3+ Formation
2+ Gorgon's Chain

Absolutely guaranteed 2+ FNP.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Miles City, MT

 JNAProductions wrote:
5+ apothecary.
4+ IH trait
3+ Formation
2+ Gorgon's Chain

Absolutely guaranteed 2+ FNP.


Yes, guaranteed. And it doesn't give everything ob sec like the gladius does, so it is actually worse and an army wide nerf. And again, having a smash star was nowhere near as op as the other death stars, and by building him it took away from other areas of the army. Unfortunately, smash was the only thing IH had going for it in 7th. Now they don't even have that. IH this edition suffered across the board nerfs.

Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car. 
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




 NorseSig wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
5+ apothecary.
4+ IH trait
3+ Formation
2+ Gorgon's Chain

Absolutely guaranteed 2+ FNP.


Yes, guaranteed. And it doesn't give everything ob sec like the gladius does, so it is actually worse and an army wide nerf. And again, having a smash star was nowhere near as op as the other death stars, and by building him it took away from other areas of the army. Unfortunately, smash was the only thing IH had going for it in 7th. Now they don't even have that. IH this edition suffered across the board nerfs.

I agree that we took nerfs this edition (hence the thread to redo some of their 8th edition abilities) but you're way off base with it being 'the only thing IH had going for it'. Compare our Chapter Tactics to, for example, Imperial Fists. Or Salamanders. Or Black Templars. Raven Guard weren't the worst thing ever, but were also pretty miserable.
The only chapters that were 'Better' than us were White Scars and Ultramarines, and Ultramarines were only better for their access to numerous Characters, their Chapter Tactics were fairly meh. Out of the 7 Chapters in the Codex, we were in the top three, and we CERTAINLY weren't 'Bottom of the barrel'.
Heck, even now I wouldn't say we're 'bottom of the barrel'. We're just *boring*.
   
Made in gb
Fireknife Shas'el




Saff-end, mate.

Again, even with Ultramarine Characters - who actually liked Chronus, Telion, Sicarius, and Cassius? Were they ever competetive choices?

Just because you could take Calgar and more importantly Tigurius (and Guilliman later) doesn't mean that UM having lots of characters meant anything.

UM were good for their ability to spam rerolls, and Tigurius/Calgar/Guilliman. Beyond that, what did they really have? White Scars were solid overall with Hit and Run and Skilled Rider, which made them very good at the Jink/Shooty meta of the game. Iron Hands outright lost fewer men than any other Chapter due to their Chapter Tactic, and their multiwound models were far more durable.

Seriously, if you say IH were the bottom of the barrel, who was better? Imperial Fists? Black Templars? Salamanders?

Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
Join the Crion Crusade: I think it's the combination of butt jokes, democratic necrons, explosions, and mind-fething that draws people to this Crusade like moths to a bug zapper - War Kitten
Rippy wrote:Never forgetti, template spaghetti.
DR:90S++G++MB+IPw40k07-D++A++/sWD366R++T(F)DM+ 
   
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Miles City, MT

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, even with Ultramarine Characters - who actually liked Chronus, Telion, Sicarius, and Cassius? Were they ever competetive choices?

Just because you could take Calgar and more importantly Tigurius (and Guilliman later) doesn't mean that UM having lots of characters meant anything.

UM were good for their ability to spam rerolls, and Tigurius/Calgar/Guilliman. Beyond that, what did they really have? White Scars were solid overall with Hit and Run and Skilled Rider, which made them very good at the Jink/Shooty meta of the game. Iron Hands outright lost fewer men than any other Chapter due to their Chapter Tactic, and their multiwound models were far more durable.

Seriously, if you say IH were the bottom of the barrel, who was better? Imperial Fists? Black Templars? Salamanders?


In 7th UM, WS, IF, Salamanders were all better for sure. I said IH were at the bottom of the barrel. Along with the other codex SM factions.

UM have/had lots of characters. And more than one with above average rules that work as force multipliers. Just because there were better options than Chronus and friends doesn't mean they were bad choices. And more options is a good thing. where as a lack of options is limiting.

You claim IH lost less models due to their chapter tactic. That was never my experience or what I saw. While the rule WAS better on bikes and other high toughness multiwound models, it really didn't matter much.

Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car. 
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




 NorseSig wrote:


In 7th UM, WS, IF, Salamanders were all better for sure. I said IH were at the bottom of the barrel. Along with the other codex SM factions.

UM have/had lots of characters. And more than one with above average rules that work as force multipliers. Just because there were better options than Chronus and friends doesn't mean they were bad choices. And more options is a good thing. where as a lack of options is limiting.

You claim IH lost less models due to their chapter tactic. That was never my experience or what I saw. While the rule WAS better on bikes and other high toughness multiwound models, it really didn't matter much.

Really. Really.
Imperial Fists were better, with their 'Re-roll 1's on one of the worst weapons in our codex, and buff Devestators, who are also one of the worst units in our codex'. Oh, and some really, really mediocre relics.
Or Salamanders, who got... Master Crafted on characters, ok, that's fine, but... Buffs on one specific weapon type that we don't have the ability to spam and is only good against one specific unit? Minor resistance against Flamers, who are already terrible at actually hurting Space Marines to begin with? Some of the most lackluster relics in the Space Marine canon?


I don't care about 'What your experience was'. Iron Hands statistically lose 17% fewer models unless hit by S8+ or Instant Death weapons. If you take their unique detachment and had a character nearby, they instead lose 33% fewer models.


Heck, if we're comparing the other Codex chapters, Space Wolves were pretty much universally worse, with the exception of Thunderwolf Cavalry and Wulfen, who were stupidly powerful... But only if you buffed them with librarians from the Space Marines codex. Blood Angels didn't even have a few cheesy-powerful units going for them.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 JNAProductions wrote:
5+ apothecary.
4+ IH trait
3+ Formation
2+ Gorgon's Chain

Absolutely guaranteed 2+ FNP.

You can get a 3+++ guaranteed if you paid more than 600 points for the guy outside the model, sure. The 2+++ was not.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




In My Lab

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
5+ apothecary.
4+ IH trait
3+ Formation
2+ Gorgon's Chain

Absolutely guaranteed 2+ FNP.

You can get a 3+++ guaranteed if you paid more than 600 points for the guy outside the model, sure. The 2+++ was not.


Two things.

1) The 2+++ was guaranteed. I literally showed you how.

2) Ultimately, it doesn't even matter if Iron Hands were the absolute best or rock-bottom worst. That's no excuse for making them unbalanced now.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 JNAProductions wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
5+ apothecary.
4+ IH trait
3+ Formation
2+ Gorgon's Chain

Absolutely guaranteed 2+ FNP.

You can get a 3+++ guaranteed if you paid more than 600 points for the guy outside the model, sure. The 2+++ was not.


Two things.

1) The 2+++ was guaranteed. I literally showed you how.

2) Ultimately, it doesn't even matter if Iron Hands were the absolute best or rock-bottom worst. That's no excuse for making them unbalanced now.

1. No warlord trait was guaranteed in 6-7th unless you had a special character. So no it wasn't. You can pretend like it is if you want though.
2. What was proposed here that was busted so far? Also Iron Hands were only at the top with Gladius (your vehicles might not have scouted nor did you get rerolls out the wazoo, but your free Razorbacks gaining IWND? Seems like another no brainer choice), and any other builds made then sink super low.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. No warlord trait was guaranteed in 6-7th unless you had a special character. So no it wasn't. You can pretend like it is if you want though.
2. What was proposed here that was busted so far? Also Iron Hands were only at the top with Gladius (your vehicles might not have scouted nor did you get rerolls out the wazoo, but your free Razorbacks gaining IWND? Seems like another no brainer choice), and any other builds made then sink super low.

He's referring to the chapter tactic. I mean, sure it's a bit weird to call it a 'trait', but it's still really obvious what he'e talking about since he doesn't mention the CT ability anywhere else.
(And NorseSig's suggestion was pretty OP.)
   
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In My Lab

Waaaghpower wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. No warlord trait was guaranteed in 6-7th unless you had a special character. So no it wasn't. You can pretend like it is if you want though.
2. What was proposed here that was busted so far? Also Iron Hands were only at the top with Gladius (your vehicles might not have scouted nor did you get rerolls out the wazoo, but your free Razorbacks gaining IWND? Seems like another no brainer choice), and any other builds made then sink super low.

He's referring to the chapter tactic. I mean, sure it's a bit weird to call it a 'trait', but it's still really obvious what he'e talking about since he doesn't mention the CT ability anywhere else.
(And NorseSig's suggestion was pretty OP.)


Yes, that is accurate.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Waaaghpower wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. No warlord trait was guaranteed in 6-7th unless you had a special character. So no it wasn't. You can pretend like it is if you want though.
2. What was proposed here that was busted so far? Also Iron Hands were only at the top with Gladius (your vehicles might not have scouted nor did you get rerolls out the wazoo, but your free Razorbacks gaining IWND? Seems like another no brainer choice), and any other builds made then sink super low.

He's referring to the chapter tactic. I mean, sure it's a bit weird to call it a 'trait', but it's still really obvious what he'e talking about since he doesn't mention the CT ability anywhere else.
(And NorseSig's suggestion was pretty OP.)

His suggestions are usually garbage, but he isn't incorrect on Iron Hands getting the worst of it for the most part. I don't think anyone expected Iron Hands to ever gain a supplement like they did in 6th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also don't trust people that say Smashbane and Smashfether were cheese because they weren't. They were 250+ point characters that didn't support the rest of their army, and if you wanted the further durability like mentioned here, you needed 135+ points for the command squad with the apothecary, and a formation that was inferior to Gladius as it still forced you into those garbage Tactical Marines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/17 14:59:30


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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