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Made in gb
Cunning Chieftain






How do?

Felt this would work as a topic on its own.

It's nice and simple. Right now, GW, PP and FFG seem to have the Hobby wargame market pretty well sewn up. And each of them offer different things. Huzzah and hoorah, the industry seems in rude health. And if GW's financials are any indication, the wider Hobby seems to be very much in growth (much as their about-face has been impressive, I struggle to credit their recent fortunes solely to that. Definitely a factor though).

But I'm not looking to discuss what survivors did right. Instead, I'm looking for opinions and discussions on what now defunct games and companies did wrong.

It's no secret that I'm by and large a GW player, so I'm afraid that as the OP, my knowledge here is pretty woeful. So rather than anything insightful, I'll just list the various games that's spring to mind. So far as I'm aware they're gone gone, rather than on 'hiatus'. But please feel free to enlighten me if I'm wrong. Ready? Here we go.

Mongoose Games, who did Starship Troopers
Rackham
Void
Vore
Firestorm Games
Flintloque
Celtos

From what I can tell, their games weren't considered poor. And their models were for the most part better than middling. Yet sadly, they're no longer with us. But why? What was it about those games that failed to attract a large enough player base to keep them going?

Whilst I won't be contributing much insight, I may and probably will be asking for clarification here and there. It's not to cast doubt or denigrate, just to make sure I'm getting it!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/10 22:00:57


Fed up for Scalpers? Why not join us? 
   
Made in gb
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Devon, UK

The harsh reality of business is you can make absolutely the right decision every step of the way and still fail.

Specifically to your list, Rackham switching to pre paints and Firestorm failing to stick with an existing product and jumping onto the next project are the factors most commonly cited that weren't the right decision.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




UK

Spartan Games were a small company that hit the big market with Dystopian Wars; but their small size and lack of effective management/investment seemd to leave them constantly chasing the next big thing for them; but also unable to keep supporting their other lines. So they'd have 5 or so games on the go at once, but only be supporting one at a time. This was coupled with a lack of communication to the fans

Fans HATE feeling like a game is abandoned and when a company doesn't just say nothing but actually misses its own internal deadlines and never says anything and then appears to have totally abandoned big releases that they were making huge noise about - its a very bad sign.


I'd say a lot of companies struggle with scale of production. EVen GW had huge problems first supporting and then bracing for the sudden drop in sales with the Lord of the Rings range. Other brands have similar problems - scaling up to meet sudden huge demand then scaling back when the hype wears off and your core market has bought up fast and is then trickling purchases rather than bulk buying.



Rackham did indeed suffer when they shifted to pre-painted. It's one thing to have range pre-painted from the start (starwars is doing very well) ; but shifting ranges means you're shifting markets totally.
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





UK

 Azreal13 wrote:
The harsh reality of business is you can make absolutely the right decision every step of the way and still fail.

Specifically to your list, Rackham switching to pre paints and Firestorm failing to stick with an existing product and jumping onto the next project are the factors most commonly cited that weren't the right decision.


Didn't Rackham go a bit mental and flew well off the handle? I can't remember the specifics and could be entirely remembering things wrong, but the pre-paints were poor quality plastics and one of the management team basically went on a rant and gave what amounted to a hobsons choice to fans (take it or leave it). So they said sod you we'll leave it then and didn't buy anything.
   
Made in gb
Cunning Chieftain






I thought Rackham did the pre-paints alongside the original stuff?

Fed up for Scalpers? Why not join us? 
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





UK

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I thought Rackham did the pre-paints alongside the original stuff?


I seem to remember the new management forcing the end of production of the metal models as soon as the plastics were available?
   
Made in gb
Bloodthirsty Vampire Thrall





UK

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do?

Felt this would work as a topic on its own.

It's nice and simple. Right now, GW, PP and FFG seem to have the Hobby wargame market pretty well sewn up. And each of them offer different things. Huzzah and hoorah, the industry seems in rude health. And if GW's financials are any indication, the wider Hobby seems to be very much in growth (much as their about-face has been impressive, I struggle to credit their recent fortunes solely to that. Definitely a factor though).

But I'm not looking to discuss what survivors did right. Instead, I'm looking for opinions and discussions on what now defunct games and companies did wrong.

It's no secret that I'm by and large a GW player, so I'm afraid that as the OP, my knowledge here is pretty woeful. So rather than anything insightful, I'll just list the various games that's spring to mind. So far as I'm aware they're gone gone, rather than on 'hiatus'. But please feel free to enlighten me if I'm wrong. Ready? Here we go.

Mongoose Games, who did Starship Troopers
Rackham
Void
Vore
Firestorm Games
Flintloque
Celtos

From what I can tell, their games weren't considered poor. And their models were for the most part better than middling. Yet sadly, they're no longer with us. But why? What was it about those games that failed to attract a large enough player base to keep them going?

Whilst I won't be contributing much insight, I may and probably will be asking for clarification here and there. It's not to cast doubt or denigrate, just to make sure I'm getting it!


Mongoose are still around - the owner posts on dakka quite a bit.

They made some great games and models over the year - ACTA Babylon 5, Judge Dredd and Starship Troopers being highlights for me.

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Void died on its arse due to one of the owners embezzling money when the company was still I-Kore IIRC.

Nowt to do with the game, it was great for its time IMO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/09 21:02:51


 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Over there...

IiRC, Rackham were bought out by a company that wanted to turn them into a toy business, rather than a miniatures business. So they took a range that appealed primarily to painters, and replaced it with a range of prepaints that nobody wanted.

Mongoose are still around, but took a heavy hit from their stab at prepainted miniatures after hyping a range that would be better than most people can paint and (due presumably to a lack of oversight in China) winding up with unsellable dross.

Void, Celtos and Vore, along with the original incarnation of Warzone, simply suffered from going up against GW at a time when GW was hitting that critical mass where people started buying into games based on what everyone else was playing. They were all good games, they just weren't Warhammer or Warhammer 40000, and at a different time might have turned out very differently.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ruin wrote:
Void died on its arse due to one of the owners embezzling money when the company was still I-Kore IIRC.

Nowt to do with the game, it was great for its time IMO.

That certainly didn't help, but from what I recall their games had already been well and truly eclipsed by 40k and Warzone by that point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/09 21:16:10


   
Made in us
Wondering Why the Emperor Left




Philadelphia PA

I think the issue with Rackham was a failure to catch the English speaking market. Confrontation wasn't well translated and when they tried to spin the setting into an RPG it wasn't great.

I think if they had just stuck to their absolutely beautiful metal miniatures they'd have been ok.

The pre-paints was the nail in the coffin for them IMO. Their sci-fi line AT-43 wasn't bad for the vehicles (since they were hard plastic) but the infantry was bendy and kind of poor quality.
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch






I think the wargaming market is super crazy tough...and I think a few too many people go into it thinking they can support 8-10-20 people with full-time salaries doing it. That's exceptionally rare, and why you'll find a lot of companies are 2-4 people who do the stuff on their weekends.

The biggest things which scream "mistake" to me are generally:

1) Super niche product...and then wonder why you're not raking in the dough. "Why isn't anyone buying my 13mm scaled Neo-Chinese Fantasy Lore game based on a space planet I invented..." If you're going to do this kind of thing, it better be a hobby and not something you expect to create profit.

2) Niche scale. Unless you're a titan of the industry (and even the titans in this industry are shockingly small potatoes compared to other companies), don't make your crap 35mm if the entire damn industry is 28-32mm. I understand the intent here is "well they'll have to buy our minis". That works if you have some stellar IP that people like - if not, you're turning away TONS of business from people who already have suitable models or terrain.

3) An IP or lore that the designer thinks is super neat...but never did any market research to see if anyone else gives a gak. Be it books, novels, movies, video games, etc...the hardest thing to latch a customer onto is really cool IP material. Universally adored stuff is few and far between. It's also paramount if you're selling a game. I don't care how animated someone is about the IP in their YouTube interviews during a Kickstarter - if the people don't like it, but you don't realize that and you dump a ton of cash into a dead end...you're in trouble. This is at least one area where Kickstarter can be a life saver.

4) Bring me something new, something better, or something neat....or don't bring me anything at all. This normally kills a company before they even take off. You see a ton of Kickstarters for what boils down to "also ran" material. generic poor 3D modeled stuff in a super generic, boring or uninspired IP...a product which offers absolutely nothing of genuine value to the consumer. There was a Kickstarter a while back for some generic named sci-fi game based around super mediocre 3D models (which, as far as I could see were all modeled out of various size blocks?). If you genuinely can't sell your game without hiding behind the "innovative, new!" kind of nonsense tag lines - I'm not gonna buy in.

5) Anchoring your miniature line with an unnecessary game or lore. Lore and IP and story can be really important for a game. It can also be the anchor which sinks it. A lot of small companies seem to try way too hard to create a brand new universe just to sell some miniatures - when, financially, they would have been better off just selling minis and saving all of the time/effort with the IP (and what might very well be a super mediocre game). I think really well done miniatures will always sell themselves, particularly if they're genre-flexible. This is where you are almost better off doing historicals, where a dozen rule sets exist to run your minis.

6) The overly successful Kickstarter. While I'm a big fan of Kickstarter, it's been shown a few times that companies try too hard and make waaaaay too many promises and then can't bring it all to market. This ends up being financially crushing for the people involved and some more restraint should have been exercised during the actual campaign. It doesn't hurt to say "Look, we're a new company we can only provide X and we'll do it to the best of our ability". If you need to promise dozens of unlocks which you won't be able to deliver...just skip it and close the campaign already.


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

a small business begins, it does ok, people buy the stuff and like it, but it's small, maybe local, maybe with an online following

now it could carry on like this for a long time, maybe paying enough for the owner to go full time, maybe even have a member of staff or two, but it's small

they dare to dream, everybody will like us if they could get us, how to make that happen, they've tried advertising (such that they can afford) it provides a small boost but soon levels off

only one option, mass market, distribution, the gamble that selling to a distributor at 40% of what they normally make from their direct sales will pay off with a big enough sales jump to keep the profits steady or hopefully grown them

but distribution means making more product (not having it when a distributor asks for more tends to mean at worst they drop you if you're small fry, at best stop promoting you leaving your products adrift in their catalogue competing with all the other stuff in there)

so the curse of growth starts and they look at taking out Loans

when small businesses grow they have to borrow cash, and while friends and family may suffice to start with they soon have to go cap in hand to a bank, finance firm or other shareholders who often have no real interest in the business beyond an account book showing they'll get their loan back with interest

so the small business now has the cash to pursue the owners dreams (although the owner probably owns less of the business now)

if all goes well they grow, sell more stuff, get more popular which helps sell more stuff, and so on

all well and good but it's really easy for things to go wrong,

the stuff doesn't sell as well as expected,
distributors mess them about,
interest rates change unexpectedly,
another company does similar stuff and is better received,
a shareholder dies and means they have to be bought out
the owner is almost always a game designer/sculptor or similar not a business man so as things get more complex they do a worse and worse job
a supplier they've paid a bunch of money to folds before delivery
actual deliberate fraud from within the company (or from a distributor or supplier)
etc

so now cashflow is shaky and the creditors get to hear about it and pull the loan (instant death) or demand higher interest on the loan (slow death)

Occasionally the gamble pays off and the small company becomes big enough to stablilise, but all to often they stumble from loan to loan until one finally goes wrong and kills them

 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Stonecold Gimster






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
.... Yet sadly, they're no longer with us. But why? What was it about those games that failed to attract a large enough player base to keep them going?


Honestly? In my opinion, it's down to GW's brainwashing. Everything has to be GW. The whole hobby is GW. There are such a large amount of GW players who will not try any other game because it isn't GW. I have friends who only play GW stuff. They'd refuse to try guildball or dreadball as they 'hate the genre', but the second blood bowl is released they're all over it like a rash.

It's a crying shame. There are many games out there that are as good or better, or just plain different, to GW stuff that deserve a chance, but the success of GW's marketing/brainwashing strategy has paid off.

By the way, Void is still available, as are all the figures.

My Painting Blog: http://gimgamgoo.com/ 
   
Made in us
Major General





Florence, KY


Do you mean VOR: The Maelstrom or was there a separate game named Vore?

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






From what I remember ...

Rackham's main problem was not properly managing expectations with the Confrontation: Age of Rag'Narok pre-painted mass-battle game. As well as going from a range renowned for "boutique" sculpts for painters as much as gamers to pre-paints almost overnight, they simply couldn't keep the stock available; Only two factions for months (down from the dozen or more in the metal ranges) and core units unavailable. The latter problem was also a chronic problem for AT-43. As far as I can see, it simply boiled down to poor cash flow and over-expansion.

I-Kore / Urban Mammoth's problems were partly that, partly theft by an employee (allegedly) and partly that old chestnut of not concentrating on one thing. They had Void with a decent range of miniatures which they slowly expanded (originally all four human armies used the same basic troop type, then they got army-specific sculpts of those troopers, then unique units to replace those generic troops), then Void 1.1 came along with a plastic starter box; a good idea, but that was it as far as plastics went, and they didn't match that well with the metal models. Plus there was a communications failure with the Chinese factory - the first run of models were manufactured at 3x normal size, instead of being scaled down as was normal practice). Then we got Urban War - a Shadow War-type skirmish game wich used variations on the "main" game's factions with completely new miniatures. That eventually took over the parent game. The last effort was a 6mm mass-battle game; I don't know what ever happened to that.

Then they had problems with their shop in Edinburgh flooding, then one of the owners moved to Khazakstan. TGhen there was Infinity, which did roughly the same thing as Urban War, with the same sort of influences, but with much nicer miniatures.
Celtos suffered from the issues affecting the parent company, and also from them falling out with Kev White who sculpted most of the miniatures.

Void miniatures are still available from Scotia Grendel, and Celtos from Brigade Games. Interestingly, Scotia Grendel also sell the miniatures and rules for Kryomek, which was written by the two guys behind I-Kore (they also were pretty important in Target Games who did Chronopia and Warzone), and you can see how Void is basically recycling the ideas from Kryomek into a more 40k-friendly skin. It wasn't competing with Warzone - that game had died before Void came along )(other than an ill-fated attempt to reprint the rules), and Void had faded away before Prodos did their version.

Vor: The Maelstrom fell foul of FASA's decision to simply shut down one day. As well as Vor, it took Crimson Skies, Battletech and Crucible with it, and the Shadowrun and Earthdawn RPGs. Battletech and Shadowrun survived due to a massively passionate fanbase, essentially. The game's designer tried to revive it, but was a decade too early for Kickstarter, and unfortunately he owned the rights to the words and ideas, but not the pictures and miniatures. A pity, because it was an intriguing setting with an interesting story.

Mongoose appear to have tried their hand at miniatures games, and now have given up and are concentrating on the Traveller and Paranoia RPGs. They had a bit of a bad rep for churning hrough games (like SPartan), although I've no idea if that was their fault or the licensors'. Certainly they had a fairly long run with the Dredd and Babylon 5 licences. MongooseMatt is fairly active here on the Age of Sigmar board, I believe.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Best bush pilot in the Outer Rim





Bathing in elitist French expats fumes

I replayed the old Warzone, the first edition from Target Games. Still plays good. It was limited, sure, and the combos you could make were crazy, but it hit that nostalgia spot perfectly.

Being francophone, Confrontation was great. I never saw the English version of the rules, but the fact that the booklet of rules came with every mini (before they thought a BRB would be a good idea) was fantastic. We thought up a new spell? Put the card in the blister. You want to run the spell on three models? photocopy the damn thing.

 GamesWorkshop wrote:
And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/503887.page (My humble P&M thread that I'll sometimes update, here on Dakka.) 
   
Made in us
Major General





Florence, KY

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Vor: The Maelstrom fell foul of FASA's decision to simply shut down one day. As well as Vor, it took Crimson Skies, Battletech and Crucible with it, and the Shadowrun and Earthdawn RPGs. Battletech and Shadowrun survived due to a massively passionate fanbase, essentially. The game's designer tried to revive it, but was a decade too early for Kickstarter, and unfortunately he owned the rights to the words and ideas, but not the pictures and miniatures. A pity, because it was an intriguing setting with an interesting story.

Some of that is correct, and some is not. Wikipedia is actually pretty spot on with what happened.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Mongoose appear to have tried their hand at miniatures games, and now have given up and are concentrating on the Traveller and Paranoia RPGs. They had a bit of a bad rep for churning hrough games (like SPartan), although I've no idea if that was their fault or the licensors'. Certainly they had a fairly long run with the Dredd and Babylon 5 licences. MongooseMatt is fairly active here on the Age of Sigmar board, I believe.

From what I recall, Mongoose lost the Babylon 5 license through no fault of theirs. Without a show on the air, Warner Bros. just decided to pull all of the Babylon 5 licenses when they came up for renewal.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Infiltrating Prowler





Portland, OR

It really just comes down to organized play, support in local game stores and distribution.

Game growth is mostly pushed by local players. Local players push game growth because there is some sort of organized play format that gets you or you can earn something (usually). This promotes players to organize, learn, and grow the game.

However, none of that matters if you don't have or work with proper distribution channels so that stores can easily obtain the product.

Usually, companies get 2 out of 3 of the things correctly and have trouble with one of the things. It isn't always distribution, but a good time it is and other times it is simply organized play.

 
   
Made in us
Dangerous Outrider






I am an old timer.. not that old.. but old enough to remember most of the releases. One of the big thing that caused the failure I feel is just not connecting with the customers.
If any game is going to survive it needs a community, if you can not find anyone that plays the game, normally you will stop playing that game.

The other thing was with games like AT-43 the game got a little wonky on its releases, trying to expand the universe quickly caused questionable choices to go to production and
then the product ended up dying on the game store shelf.

I had Vor, and absolutely loved my Growlers, but could not find anyone local that played it. With no one buying it outside of me, that caused local shops not to carry it..

But games today can go off track, look at Privateer press right now.. Locally after the sub par release of the new edition the most of community has moved to 40k and X-wing.
Not that I think it will make them die off.. but it's not as healthy as it once was and I am sure they can see it on their bottom line.

Even with X-wing, They are running out of things to produce and if a few bad movies would hit (don't think Disney will allow this) it could collapse on its self because that
would cause people to lose interest in the franchise. Kind of like the end of the run of WotC star wars miniatures..We already produced twelve Darth Vaders..think of something else.

 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Over there...

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It wasn't competing with Warzone - that game had died before Void came along )

Void and Warzone both hit their peak during 2nd edition 40k. I think Void lingered a little longer, particularly with the company changes and the switch to Urban War, but it was really just treading water by that point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ghaz wrote:

From what I recall, Mongoose lost the Babylon 5 license through no fault of theirs. Without a show on the air, Warner Bros. just decided to pull all of the Babylon 5 licenses when they came up for renewal.

Fairly sure it wasn't that the licence was pulled, but that Warner Bros had a rather inflated idea of what the licence was worth, and Mongoose decided it just wasn't worth it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/10 06:12:59


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Norfolk

Others have covered most of this so I'll chime in on Flintloque which hasn't been talked about yet. It along with a mass battle game set in the same world (Slaughterloo) is still well supported with regular releases of new minis. From what little I understand the manufacturer (Alector Ltd aka Alternative Armies) got burned pretty hard by a lack of sales back when they did sell their products to distributors and only just survived. Thankfully for them that was about the same time that websales really started to take off so they've been able to do reasonably well for themselves selling directly to customers. Of course Flintloque and Slaughterloo aren't all they do, they also make a bucket load of other 28mm and 15mm stuff including the old Laserburn range, their own sci-fi universe called The Ion Age in both 15mm and 28mm, loads of generic 15mm historical, sci-fi and fantasy minis, games based on Celtic and Greek mythology, a post apoc game called Sulpher, the USEME range of rules, DarkStorme (pre-blackpowder fantasy skirmish set in the same world as Flintloque and Slaughterloo), the old fantasy warlord range of 28mm minis and others. I think it's fair to say that aside from visibility in FLGSs Alector/Alternative Armies are doing reasonably well with a diverse range of products readily available.

PS I am not in any was biased by the fact that I've recently got into both Flintloque and Patrol Angis (15mm Ion Age).

Treasurer/Dakka Thread Person for Warpath Wargames Club Norwich

Check out my painting log, building a games room, napoleonic fantasy and more - here
 
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





Earlobe deep in doo doo

Another factor for Rackham was genre change for Confrontation it tried to go from a hyper detailed skirmish game to a mass battle game sort of like the problem GW had with AoS as well as the pre-paints.

"But me no buts! Our comrades get hurt. Our friends die. Falkenburg is a knight who swore an oath to serve the church and to defend the weak. He'd be the first to tell you to stop puling and start planning. Because what we are doing-at risk to ourselves-is what we have sworn to do. The West relies on us. It is a risk we take with pride. It is an oath we honour. Even when some soft southern burgher mutters about us, we know the reason he sleeps soft and comfortable, why his wife is able to complain about the price of cabbages as her most serious problem and why his children dare to throw dung and yell "Knot" when we pass. It's because we are what we are. For all our faults we stand for law and light.
Von Gherens This Rough Magic Lackey, Flint & Freer
Mekagorkalicious -Monkeytroll
2017 Model Count-71 
   
Made in de
Dakar





Rhein Main Gebiet

Who remembers Harlequin Miniatures and their mass batle game 'Raven'? The range continues as Black Tree Design these days.

Also Clan War the mass fantasy battle game based on Legend of the Five Rings. That was dropped (as far as I know) due to the IP being sold to Wizards of the Coast for a few years.

"What do you want?"
"I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I'd look up at your lifeless eyes and wave like this. Can you and your associates arrange it for me, Mr. Morden?"
Morden and Vir, In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 insaniak wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It wasn't competing with Warzone - that game had died before Void came along )

Void and Warzone both hit their peak during 2nd edition 40k. I think Void lingered a little longer, particularly with the company changes and the switch to Urban War, but it was really just treading water by that point.


The Void 1.1 rulebook I have (and the very first Battles With Miniatures catalogue) is (c) 2000; 40k was on to 3rd edition by that point. The boxed game was 2004.

The most disappointing failure for me was Cell Entertainment in 1999. They had three games: Ronin (a game of giant robots about the size of Epic titans duelling), 1999 (a weird angels vs demons vs mutants apocalyptic 28mm game) and Lab (in which you played as competing mad scientists, building a laboratory to create mutants and devices, and sent them out to fight your opponent). Mostly I used the Lab and Ronin miniatures for other things. The Ronin models were a good source of legs for Pharon AMP suit conversions for VOR, an idea I stole from Agis Neugebauer, whose VOR pics have long since disappeared from his website.
   
Made in gb
Cunning Chieftain






Finding out some games aren't in fact 'gone gone' has me intrigued.

May do a buddy thread pointing folks to where they can buy games of yesteryear.

Reckon that might prove interesting, especially if the game is Warband sized?

Fed up for Scalpers? Why not join us? 
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





UK

Anyone have much info on what happened to the Axis and Allies lines? Love playing War at Sea every now and then, but they just seemed to vanish.
   
Made in gr
Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

 Nick Ellingworth wrote:
Others have covered most of this so I'll chime in on Flintloque which hasn't been talked about yet. It along with a mass battle game set in the same world (Slaughterloo) is still well supported with regular releases of new minis. From what little I understand the manufacturer (Alector Ltd aka Alternative Armies) got burned pretty hard by a lack of sales back when they did sell their products to distributors and only just survived. Thankfully for them that was about the same time that websales really started to take off so they've been able to do reasonably well for themselves selling directly to customers. Of course Flintloque and Slaughterloo aren't all they do, they also make a bucket load of other 28mm and 15mm stuff including the old Laserburn range, their own sci-fi universe called The Ion Age in both 15mm and 28mm, loads of generic 15mm historical, sci-fi and fantasy minis, games based on Celtic and Greek mythology, a post apoc game called Sulpher, the USEME range of rules, DarkStorme (pre-blackpowder fantasy skirmish set in the same world as Flintloque and Slaughterloo), the old fantasy warlord range of 28mm minis and others. I think it's fair to say that aside from visibility in FLGSs Alector/Alternative Armies are doing reasonably well with a diverse range of products readily available.

PS I am not in any was biased by the fact that I've recently got into both Flintloque and Patrol Angis (15mm Ion Age).
This stuff actually sounds really cool, thanks for the tip.

I occasionally lament the lack of 'rogue trader era 40k' style options for modelling, but then I remind myself I just need to gather a bunch of old toys and recycling, grab some cheap acrylic paints and brushes then have at it myself!
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Over there...

 zedmeister wrote:
Anyone have much info on what happened to the Axis and Allies lines? Love playing War at Sea every now and then, but they just seemed to vanish.

WotC found themselves overextended, and so they dropped A&A at the same time as Star Wars, in order to better focus on Magic and D&D.

   
Made in gb
Cunning Chieftain






Must say, this thread isn't going the way I thought it would, but in a really, really, really cool and positive way!

Chuffed to see Celtos is still more-or-less about (anyone know if they've printed a rulebook not in that font?), not to mention stuff like Flintloque (I'm a sucker for Napoleonics).

Fed up for Scalpers? Why not join us? 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader







Never played Urban war, but the figures and size of the warbands were perfect, IMHO.
   
 
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