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The current rule on targeting/shooting Characters is this:

"A Character can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting. This does not apply to Characters with a Wounds characteristic of 10 or more, due to their sheer size." - Core Rules

While I understand GW's reasoning for this rule, it has introduced some monumentally unrealistic stupidity. To mitigate this, while preserving the spirit of the rule, I propose the rule be changed like this:

"A Character can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting, unless the shooting model is also a Character. This does not apply to Characters with a Wounds characteristic of 10 or more, due to their sheer size."

"Heroes, officers, prophets and warlords" seek each other out in battle. (It's all part of growing up and being British.)

So what do you all think?

Basically pointless (most characters are CC monsters or buffers) except for a few characters (Tau Commanders) who will absolutely wreck face.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Basically pointless (most characters are CC monsters or buffers) except for a few characters (Tau Commanders) who will absolutely wreck face.

Pretty much this. Most characters will have like, a pistol or bolter or something. And in the case of the pistols, there's a decent chance that you'll be the closest model to the character anyway, so this rule would be moot. But the characters that actually have scary shooting (Maugan Ra, Crisis Commanders, conversion beamer bearers if that's still a thing) will absolutely destroy most characters they target. So at best, the proposed rule doesn't really make much difference. At worst, the proposed rule causes huge balance problems.

Sorry, duWhee. :(

This is an idea that should be built around. All characters, even CC and buffing characters need to be good at (surviving [winning]) ranged combat.

If the shooting model has fewer base attacks than the target model, then the target model should get a second inv save if it's in cover. They do it in Flames of War: the better troops are harder to hit than basic troops and conscripts are easiest. A veteran model is better at keeping its head down and at returning fire when it is safer.

So a crisis suit team leader should be able to target enemy characters, but it should be able to kill lieutenants more easily than just erasing senior officers, chapter masters or autatchs with impunity.

Do orks actually have anything that can shoot or take down characters ignoring other models in the way? I always saw that of a flaw in this edition.

 lolman1c wrote:
Do orks actually have anything that can shoot or take down characters ignoring other models in the way? I always saw that of a flaw in this edition.

Nope they have Melee combat, that is it. They don't even have a psychic power that targets something other than the closest unit offensively.

I don't play 8th often, since I mostly play 30k, but when we do play 8th, we change that rule to

"A model may only fire snap shots at enemy Characters in the Shooting phase, unless they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting. If the model would only be able to fire snap shots anyways, it may not shoot. This does not apply to Characters with a Wounds characteristic of 10 or more, due to their sheer size."

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
I don't play 8th often, since I mostly play 30k, but when we do play 8th, we change that rule to

"A model may only fire snap shots at enemy Characters in the Shooting phase, unless they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting. If the model would only be able to fire snap shots anyways, it may not shoot. This does not apply to Characters with a Wounds characteristic of 10 or more, due to their sheer size."

I mean snap shots don't really exist, so it would just be always hit on a 6+ like overwatch. I think that still makes weaker characters much too vunerable.

I think the best fix would be "cannot shoot the character if they are within 6"(or some decided distance) of a friendly non-character unit, unless they are the closest model."

Breng77 wrote:

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
I don't play 8th often, since I mostly play 30k, but when we do play 8th, we change that rule to

"A model may only fire snap shots at enemy Characters in the Shooting phase, unless they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting. If the model would only be able to fire snap shots anyways, it may not shoot. This does not apply to Characters with a Wounds characteristic of 10 or more, due to their sheer size."

I mean snap shots don't really exist, so it would just be always hit on a 6+ like overwatch. I think that still makes weaker characters much too vunerable.

I think the best fix would be "cannot shoot the character if they are within 6"(or some decided distance) of a friendly non-character unit, unless they are the closest model."

This actually seems fairly reasonable even within the stated intent of the rule, which is to represent the difficulty of picking a single person out in the heat of battle. If they're all on their lonesome, nowhere near anyone else, it doesn't seem like that would actually be all that difficult

If characters are that much of a problem take a vindicare

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
I don't play 8th often, since I mostly play 30k, but when we do play 8th, we change that rule to

"A model may only fire snap shots at enemy Characters in the Shooting phase, unless they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting. If the model would only be able to fire snap shots anyways, it may not shoot. This does not apply to Characters with a Wounds characteristic of 10 or more, due to their sheer size."

I mean snap shots don't really exist, so it would just be always hit on a 6+ like overwatch. I think that still makes weaker characters much too vunerable.

I think the best fix would be "cannot shoot the character if they are within 6"(or some decided distance) of a friendly non-character unit, unless they are the closest model."

This actually seems fairly reasonable even within the stated intent of the rule, which is to represent the difficulty of picking a single person out in the heat of battle. If they're all on their lonesome, nowhere near anyone else, it doesn't seem like that would actually be all that difficult

Yup, if not for the added time and rolls, I wish there were mechanics where you had to shoot the closest enemy unit if they were within say 9" unless you could pass an LD check or perhaps shooting something else was at -1 BS. From a fluff standpoint it seems like having a bunch of enemy combatants right in your face would make it difficult to focus on shooting other things.

The only thing id like them to fix is making it so you can shoot characters if they are the closest VIABLE target.

it sucks getting into wonky situations where people are in combat 2 inches to the left of you and there is a character 4 inches out and nothing you can do about it.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
If characters are that much of a problem take a vindicare

Not every faction has access to the vindicate in this edition. Chaos only has R&H sniper squads, Tyranids don't have anything at all and same with orks too.

This isn't for the benefit of someone whose army is struggling and needs an answer to characters, this is for people who find the character targeting rules overly protective in most situations and who don't want snipers to be the only way to dislodge them.

Yeah dude, not everyone has snipers.

As far as character rules go, let them be shot at if the closest enemy is untargetable (say, in combat); that way you can tie up squads to shoot characters.

Here is my solution, simple and easy:


If a character with less than 10W is targeted in the Shooting phase and he is not the closest visible unit, then he is hit only on To Hit rolls of 6+.

 jy2 wrote:
Here is my solution, simple and easy:


If a character with less than 10W is targeted and he is not the closest visible unit, then he is hit only on To Hit rolls of 6+.

What about characters that do wonky to hit modifiers.

i believe there are a few like in nids and maybe new death guard but uncertain.

 jy2 wrote:
Here is my solution, simple and easy:


If a character with less than 10W is targeted and he is not the closest visible unit, then he is hit only on To Hit rolls of 6+.

Still don't like this it heavily penalizes characters with poor saves, like those in orks.

 Desubot wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Here is my solution, simple and easy:


If a character with less than 10W is targeted and he is not the closest visible unit, then he is hit only on To Hit rolls of 6+.

What about characters that do wonky to hit modifiers.

i believe there are a few like in nids and maybe new death guard but uncertain.

You could make it Hit on a unmodified roll of 6, but personally, I prefer to allow units to use modifiers.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Here is my solution, simple and easy:


If a character with less than 10W is targeted and he is not the closest visible unit, then he is hit only on To Hit rolls of 6+.

Still don't like this it heavily penalizes characters with poor saves, like those in orks.

That can be mitigated somewhat with BLOS terrain, putting the characters in transports (the ultimate Ork transport...the Gargantuan Squiggoth!), or by just running a redundancy of characters.

Orks pay for their poor saves with the cheapness of their units. That's just the inherent flaw in their design. I also don't like the fact that they have poor saves (and mostly no Invuln's) in the Fight phase, but hey, if you want to play orks, then prepare to lose models. Whether against shooting or in CC, their saves will always suck. Just get more of them.

So remove buff characters entirely from orks then since they don't function from within transports? Are we halving their cost as well since they will live about 1 turn unless I pay for transport for them which more than doubles the cost for most? Sorry the current system is better than making all characters die super easy, might as well remove them at that point. A system where placement of units matters is much better.

I really want to be able to give characters this ability, and make specifically Ork characters better. That's why I think they should get a STACKING inv save for having more profile attacks than the model shooting at them.

Since few characters have more attacks than even a basic nob, the wily Orks would almost always get a save. Conversely, despite their poor bs, it would be very likely they could target enemy characters without having to get through this extra save.

pelicaniforce wrote:
I really want to be able to give characters this ability, and make specifically Ork characters better. That's why I think they should get a STACKING inv save for having more profile attacks than the model shooting at them.

Since few characters have more attacks than even a basic nob, the wily Orks would almost always get a save. Conversely, despite their poor bs, it would be very likely they could target enemy characters without having to get through this extra save.

What would the exact mechanics of this be?

Because it doesn't sound very good.

I have found it very good for lots of units.

You have models with two attacks on their profile. They are in cover. Any time they get wounded by a shooting attack from a model that has only one attack, they get a 5+ inv after their normal save.

If they have three attacks, they get the same thing, it doesn't improve, the attacking model just has to have fewer attavks onits profile. I limit this by size, based on the 7th ed unit types, so that a dreadnought or knight doesn't get it against small infantry models. If they aren't in cover, they don't get it. Ork characters can easily get it because they are obscured by the other friendly models and sniping characters should require TLOS.

How about the character targeting exemption simply doesn't apply if no other unit friendly to the character is within 6"?

Since I started playing 8th ed, I can think of half a dozen games that had a character running alone in the wide open, but couldn't be shot at because the nearest enemy unit, over 2 feet away, happened to be closer to the shooter.

duWhee wrote:
How about the character targeting exemption simply doesn't apply if no other unit friendly to the character is within 6"?

Since I started playing 8th ed, I can think of half a dozen games that had a character running alone in the wide open, but couldn't be shot at because the nearest enemy unit, over 2 feet away, happened to be closer to the shooter.

That is basically what I recommended Characters cannot be targeted if they have a friendly non-character unit within 6" that is closer to the firer than the character.

duWhee wrote:
The current rule on targeting/shooting Characters is this:

"A Character can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting. This does not apply to Characters with a Wounds characteristic of 10 or more, due to their sheer size." - Core Rules

While I understand GW's reasoning for this rule, it has introduced some monumentally unrealistic stupidity. To mitigate this, while preserving the spirit of the rule, I propose the rule be changed like this:

"A Character can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting, unless the shooting model is also a Character. This does not apply to Characters with a Wounds characteristic of 10 or more, due to their sheer size."

"Heroes, officers, prophets and warlords" seek each other out in battle. (It's all part of growing up and being British.)

So what do you all think?

Hmm. Backing up a step, what is the intended goal of this rules change, duWhee? Most characters don't have enough firepower to really matter, especially against other characters. Those rare characters that do carry a lot of dakka will suddenly become very, very good at wiping out enemy characters at a range. Dakka-heavy characters are also really the only units that stand to benefit from this.

So...
A.) What is the intention of this change? How does it improve the game?
B.) Are you okay with the fact that this will strongly advantage a small number of specific characters while generally not mattering to other characters (except when they're getting ganked from halfway across the table by Maugan Ra)?