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Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




Seattle Area

As long as I can remember, Shining Spears have been a joke.

I think I can count the number of times I've seen them fielded on one hand (I've played since 3rd edition) and looking at them in 8th, I just don't see anything to get excited about.

Has anyone used these successfully (or had them used successfully on them)?

At 43 pts a pop, I just don't see the appeal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/13 23:04:08


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Made in de
Dakka Veteran




They're not too bad in 8th. They're certainly much better than Windriders and they have some big advantages over other two-wound models. T4 W2 3+/4++ means that they're more durable than Terminators against precisely the things that you want to be shooting at multi-wound models with decent saves (plasma, notably). Fortune also does a particularly good job of protecting them from 2-damage weapons, because you get two chances to keep them alive to take another hit. The trade-off is that they're still pretty vulnerable to just regular bolter fire, although even here they compare pretty well to other Aspect Warriors and Guardians (bolters kill about equal points of Spears and Guardians).

I think their main problem is just that the Eldar index pushes you really hard to take an entirely mechanized list, and you simply don't want to have a T4 3+ target sitting out on the field if you can help it. They're not going to show up in tournaments, but they do pretty well if you've got other soft targets on the table from turn 1. I expect they'd nicely complement a footslogging army of Wraithguard.
   
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Dakka Veteran






They are good in Ynnari right now, the only reason you dont see them in tournaments are b.c they are weak to horde units and... its all bout hordes right now.

They are king in MSU/Elite army metas for 8th as Ynnari.

They most likely will get cheaper by 5-7 points when the codex drops, for many that still wont be enough until the meta shifts.

As for playing them at a local, if players are not using 120 orks or 200 conscripts they should be viable. (but all Eldar armies have a problem with that right now, the AI units are way to costly, Night Spinners, Shadow Weavers etc...)

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Fresh-Faced New User




I think they also have a useful role vs fliers. Those I see often move up the the field pretty aggressively turn one and into easy t1 charge range.

5 of with at tooled up exarch puts out ~10 wounds against a t6 3+ flier (e.g stormraven, ) if you include the shooting, which is pretty efficient there as well.

But I agree, definitely struggle against hordes.
   
Made in de
Bounding Black Templar Assault Marine




They have their place as a problem solver in my lists. They are however dependant on careful positioning and a Fortune thrown their way otherwise they get swatted quickly. Their shortrange fire and charge is devastating, especially as Ynnari where you can hope to either soulburst out after a charge or go twice. Just dont send them to clear hordes, it's not their forte.





 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I love my shining Spears, been using them since 4th edition, but mostly because my opponent ignores them because they are shining Spears. And when they do finally do something I feel so proud of them, and my opponent kind of go's "huh. Well then"

But yeah, not the best, but definitely not the worse. And if they do get shot up then that's something else that is more important to me not getting shot at.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Mine so far (only 2 games with them) have been similar to how banshees work. The exarch does the heavy lifting and you use his students to shield him and keep him alive. The none exarch models can do ok but that starlance really is worth the minor points cost for the upgrade. The exarchs are basically a mini Autarch. I had a lone exarch charge and wiped out a callidus assassin before she could swing back (yes 1 round of attacks did her in).
   
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S6 -4ap 2D isnt heavy hitting?

For a unit of 4 (5man 1 is Exarch) not counting the Exarch, yeah its only 4 hits but you charge in for an extra 8 S6 -4ap 2D.

A 4 man unit will put out 12 S6 -4ap 2D each, any elite infantry multi wound or less than 10W MC will die fairly easily. Thats not counting the Shrike from the bikes or the Exarch.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 19:21:38


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 Amishprn86 wrote:
S6 -4ap 2D isnt heavy hitting?

For a unit of 4 (5man 1 is Exarch) not counting the Exarch, yeah its only 4 hits but you charge in for an extra 8 S6 -4ap 2D.

A 4 man unit will put out 12 S6 -4ap 2D each, any elite infantry multi wound or less than 10W MC will die fairly easily. Thats not counting the Shrike from the bikes or the Exarch.


The exarch does the heavy lifting at str 8 vs str 6. That gets through tougher targets compared to str 6. You use the others to keep his stronger attacks around longer. I didn't say the others didn't hit hard? So I'm not sure what you are inferring from my statement.

The exarch with a star lance is more of a threat to heavy armor like Leman Russ, Land Raiders, Predators or even lighter vehicles/MCs (T7) going from needing a 3+ to wound vs. a 5+ for his squad mates. Thus the phrase "heavy lifting".
   
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Even if you use them for a Land Raider its still something like a 66% chance to do 2 wounds (3+ to hit but 50% to wound..... Thats not Heavy lifting, a Fire Dragon will do more heavy lifting to a Land Raider.

Shiny Spears are great anti-elite units and Light vehicles like, Skimmers that are T5/T6. Like Eldar, Orks, Necrons, Harlequins, DE, SM light Skimmers and some FLiers, Many fliers etc...

If you need to get 4 wounds on a Land Raider then charge the units inside, sure i would go for it, or if you need to tie up the Leman Russ and do some damage, fine but they are not really fitted for that role.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 20:41:03


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To be clear, a Shining Spear actually expects to do almost exactly as much damage to a Land Raider as a Fire Dragon. Granted, the Spear costs 80% more, but you don't actually feel that bad using them this way. The Spear Exarch is more than twice as good as a Fire Dragon, since he re-rolls wounds against vehicles, and makes up for a lot of the regular Spears' inefficiency. Overall, a 3-man Spear unit pays about 19.7 points per Land Raider wound, while a 5-man Fire Dragon squad pays about 18.8 points per Land Raider wound. It's pretty close. I'm assuming both squads get to shoot and charge from inside 6".
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Dionysodorus wrote:
To be clear, a Shining Spear actually expects to do almost exactly as much damage to a Land Raider as a Fire Dragon. Granted, the Spear costs 80% more, but you don't actually feel that bad using them this way. The Spear Exarch is more than twice as good as a Fire Dragon, since he re-rolls wounds against vehicles, and makes up for a lot of the regular Spears' inefficiency. Overall, a 3-man Spear unit pays about 19.7 points per Land Raider wound, while a 5-man Fire Dragon squad pays about 18.8 points per Land Raider wound. It's pretty close. I'm assuming both squads get to shoot and charge from inside 6".


It's really the hail of shuriken fire that evens the Shining Spears out. Comparing Spear melee to Dragon shooting isn't fair at all. Dragons will win everytime. That the entire squad gets to reroll 1's to wound against vehicles and such, and that the Exarch gets it on to hit as well more than mitigates the Spear Exarch reroll. The higher damage rolls seal the deal, especially within 6".

I would rather use the Spears vs elite infantry or bikers (hopefully 2 wounds each). And with 5 shots a model, they can do a good bit of work against little gribblies. But they really like to tear down elites.
   
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A land raider is an extreme example you wouldn't be using spears to take a landraider out exclusively but you could use them to take down the last couple of hull points after a round of reaper or lance shooting. I mentioned the larger units because the exarch can hurt them and be effective at it with reroll to wound. He would also be great at breaking open a rhino for his unit to charge the occupants. He would help against T7 dreadnoughts as well. The star lance adds utility the unit might not otherwise have. That was my point. They are a great well rounded unit able to take on any threat in the game. They have obvious targets they are more efficient at dealing with (elites) but they can help out in almost any situation. They are great in 8th.
   
Made in gb
Flower Picking Eldar Youth




Scotland

I've had great success with my 6 man Shining Spear unit this edition, they hit like a truck and are pretty durable. During my last game they managed to contribute to taking out:
5 man Grey Hunter Unit (shooting)
5 Thunderwolf Cavarly + Wolf Guard Battle Leader on Thunderwolf (soulburst shooting + dark reapers assisting)
10 man Grey Hunters (charge)
and that was in Turn 1.

It's all about how they are used and where you can soulburst to maximize their output. Granted my opponents tend to be elite armies and we dont play tournament level lists but they've defiantly found a place in my Biel-Tan army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 23:16:58


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Goobi2 wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
To be clear, a Shining Spear actually expects to do almost exactly as much damage to a Land Raider as a Fire Dragon. Granted, the Spear costs 80% more, but you don't actually feel that bad using them this way. The Spear Exarch is more than twice as good as a Fire Dragon, since he re-rolls wounds against vehicles, and makes up for a lot of the regular Spears' inefficiency. Overall, a 3-man Spear unit pays about 19.7 points per Land Raider wound, while a 5-man Fire Dragon squad pays about 18.8 points per Land Raider wound. It's pretty close. I'm assuming both squads get to shoot and charge from inside 6".


It's really the hail of shuriken fire that evens the Shining Spears out. Comparing Spear melee to Dragon shooting isn't fair at all. Dragons will win everytime. That the entire squad gets to reroll 1's to wound against vehicles and such, and that the Exarch gets it on to hit as well more than mitigates the Spear Exarch reroll. The higher damage rolls seal the deal, especially within 6".

I would rather use the Spears vs elite infantry or bikers (hopefully 2 wounds each). And with 5 shots a model, they can do a good bit of work against little gribblies. But they really like to tear down elites.

Right, part of why Spears hit so hard is that they have twin catapults, which are really an excellent gun, especially against high toughness targets and especially when re-rolling wounds.

I just think it's worth pointing out that they're actually pretty good at killing almost anything. Obviously they shred multi-wound infantry and light vehicles and are excellent against MEQs, and as I pointed out above a small squad is actually about as good as Fire Dragons against heavy vehicles. People upthread were suggesting that they're not worth it against hordes, but this isn't really true. I mean, what are you using to kill hordes? Eldar in general are very bad at this in the aftermath of the Razorwing nerf, so probably our single best horde-killer is Guardian Defenders. Of course these have their own significant disadvantages, but they put out a ton of S4 firepower. However, note that a Shining Spear that shoots and charges is paying about 14.3 points per dead Guardsman. Meanwhile a Guardian that shoots is paying 12 points per dead Guardsman. This is pretty close! Granted, the Guardians go down to 9 if they also charge, but my sense is that people are generally not doing this. Defensively, 10 S3 hits kill 26.7 points of Guardians but only 23.9 points of Spears, so the Spears are more durable against horde shooting (they're just as durable/fragile as Guardians against S4).

So it's not really that Spears are bad at fighting light infantry relative to most other things in the index. Like I said earlier, their main problem is just that the Eldar index really wants you to put everything in Wave Serpents, and if you have a bunch of Wave Serpents and some Hemlocks and then a unit of Spears, that unit of Spears is getting blown off the table turn 1.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 23:37:21


 
   
Made in de
Bounding Black Templar Assault Marine




If i really need a squad of infantry shifted that i can't get around with mobility i'd rather call in a serpent or two filled with guardians while the spears go after more valuable targets. Point is we have no better antihorde than guardians with batteries and nightspinners so overpriced, it's not the spears are good at it, they don't suck as much as other choices.





 
   
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Shadow weavers... if they we cheaper :(

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Made in gb
Wicked Canoptek Wraith



UK, Midlands

Shining Spears are shockingly good this edition, way better than they have ever been before.

A full unit of 9 with a tooled up Exarch is 390pts and has insane damage output. I usually use them to shoot one unit to death, then charge and kill a second unit, and then soul burst to do a 22" move back to safety or shoot again.

The trick seems to be knowing when to use soulburst to fly away and when to use it for an extra shooting phase. I have gotten greedy a few times and lost my spears as a result.

Their durability ain't bad for eldar but they will go down to focused fire and every casualty hurts.

A big expensive unit makes great use of buffs, with Doom, Guide and fortune all being great, Conceal off a Hemlock works well with them too. WotP can be used to get a 1st turn charge but the Spears will usually be creating their own soulbursts so don't need it most of the time.

All that being said I would agree with those saying that the best eldar lists are currently Mechanized, which leaves the spears in an awkward place. If you have lots of LOS blocking terrain to hide them they could still work.


   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Spears are a great target for ancestors grace. Since the rerolled hit is for any phase it affects both their shooting and cc attacks. A handy little buff for them indeed.
   
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Dont forget Conceal works on them, so a Farseer, Warlock, or Hemlock near them gives them a -1 to hit, making them easier to get to places.

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