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This was a late night thought and I am already being pulled to bed, so I will make this quick and hopefully not get all obsessive over wording when I wake up.


This is the setup, and I don't believe it is possible but I am curious how people would resolve the concept not a particular 'on the table' situation:
1 unit of 3 Models is within 6 inches of a Character with an Aura ability, but only one Model within the Unit is actually within 6 inches
Aura ability grants a +1 bonus to Armour Saves to Units within 6 inches
- (Yes, this would be per Model for obvious reasons, but instead of making a complex but plausible situation I just want to keep this simple so this is a +1 to the unit for this thought experiment)
During Shooting 1 Mortal Wounds is generated which, for some reason, is allocated to the Model within 6 inches
2 additional Wounds, normal ones, are then Allocated to Models within the Unit

Would they get the +1 Armour Save, and why?

No, if the mortal wound kills the model in 6"?

If you refer to a specific rule maybe give us that information.

Unclear I believe, but I would extrapolate from the FAQ regarding cover bonus applying once all models out of cover are removed and say that that no, if you are no longer have a model in the aura you lose the bonus.

Mortal wounds are applied last though, aren't they?

I am not home and don't have my rulebook in front of me, but I believe something like this came up before and all the shooting happened at the same time, regardless of what models are killed by what shots, effectively making things like range only matter when you start the process rather than shooting yourself out of range of the remaining models. Check the timing on the shooting phase when firing multiple weapons. I believe it says that each model fires everything, measuring range, choosing targets, and allocating weapons before any attacks or dice are even rolled. When it comes time to actually roll for the shots, they are all lumped together as different attacks that are being rolled for and range no longer matters or is checked for. All that matters is hits/wounds/damage/saves.

So to answer your question, yes they would still get their +1 Armor Save. They were in range of the aura before the damage step ever began and you are merely rolling all the attacks simultaneously, represented by individual dice rolls. Theoretically, if any opponent had an issue with this, you can use different colored dice for each weapon and roll them all simultaneously to the same effect and the rules do not (and must not) grant an advantage one way or the other based on how you choose to roll.

Anyone who thinks models get shot out of range is still using 7th edition logic where each weapon was specifically called out as being a different firing group, with the shooting phase being about selecting one group and targets, then the next, then the next. That is no longer the case. According to the rules as written, you actually have to select all weapons and all targets BEFORE rolling any dice and they happen simultaneously. So you cannot wait to see if a squad dies to your bolter fire before deciding whether to use your plasma cannon on it. All of these decisions get made at the start of the shooting phase.

Malachon wrote:
Mortal wounds are applied last though, aren't they?

Afaik, no. You can choose if those came from the same source. (like the wound + mortal wound of a sniper rifle To Wound roll of 6+)

@Arkaine

Then this would make no sense:

Deisgner's Commentary wrote:Q: When determining whether a model benefits from cover, does the model’s entire unit need to be fully on or within terrain, or just the model making a particular saving throw?
A: All of the models in a unit need to be at least partially on or within terrain if any of the models are to receive the +1 bonus to their saving throw.
Note, however, that it is possible for a unit to gain the benefit of cover as it suffers casualties during the Shooting phase by removing those models that are not on, or within terrain.
As soon as the last model that was not on or within terrain is slain, the rest of the unit immediately starts to receive the benefit of cover.

Attacks are all handled and resolved sequentially; technically even attacks from the same weapon on the same model.

As soon as the unit is out of range from and aura due to casualties; they are out of range abd do not benefit.

As far as Sniper mortal wounds go: they are triggered simultaneous and follow normal sequencing rules, so the shooting player gets to dictate when they applied(generally going to be after the normal unsaved wound has been fully resolved so that they can possibly spill over to the rest of the unit, because, duh).

Now that has been discussed, consider the following situation:
Same 3 man Unit as before but the first Model is 6 inches to a Unit of Scourges....
Have you capable of denying Strength from Death (my mistake, did not mean Power from Pain) by removing the closest Model first?


Now with that in mind, my real question is:
Was this crippling of Strength From Death, via Designer Commentary put forth here none the less, Intended or Unintended?

 Zeshi wrote:
@Arkaine
Then this would make no sense:

Not true. Read it again using my interpretation and it remains valid, describing what can occur during the Shooting phase. Units can suddenly get cover later in the same phase. Claiming the shots are anything but simultaneous (and therefore negates any relevance to ranges) would mean if I shot my squad of 20 boltguns at your squad that was 24" away (by one model), I would only be able to inflict a maximum of a single wound before your squad is now outside my firing range due to casualties. That sort of silliness doesn't exist in this simplified edition.

 JinxDragon wrote:
Now that has been discussed, consider the following situation:
Same 3 man Unit as before but the first Model is 6 inches to a Unit of Scourges....
Have you capable of denying Power from Pain by removing the closest Model first?


Now with that in mind, my real question is:
Was this crippling of Power from Pain, as provable via the Frequently Asked Question put forth here, Intended or Unintended?

Just checking, but I think you mean Strength from death?

Thank you Drager, what a mistake to make....

 Arkaine wrote:

 Zeshi wrote:
@Arkaine
Then this would make no sense:

Not true. Read it again using my interpretation and it remains valid, describing what can occur during the Shooting phase. Units can suddenly get cover later in the same phase. Claiming the shots are anything but simultaneous (and therefore negates any relevance to ranges) would mean if I shot my squad of 20 boltguns at your squad that was 24" away (by one model), I would only be able to inflict a maximum of a single wound before your squad is now outside my firing range due to casualties. That sort of silliness doesn't exist in this simplified edition.

An examlpe to see if I understand your way correctly:

Say we have 4 models (2 out of terrain and 2 on the terrain) and they would suffer enough wounds to kill 3 models from the same source and we would assign the wounds to the ones out of cover first:

Your interpretation: The third model would not get the benefit of cover because the sequence was not finished and they would take their save without the benefit of cover. The single model left would get the benefit of cover from that point on from different sources.

My interpretation: After the 2 models out of cover are gone the models in the terrain would immediatly get the benefit of cover for the last wound from the same shooting attack.

As soon as the last model that was not on or within terrain is slain, the rest of the unit immediately starts to receive the benefit of cover.
- Commentary that I am not going to like.

Models being Slain is a common Trigger - When the Wound are reduced to 0, the Model is Slain/Destroyed
Immediately is a common Interrupt - Do this before doing whatever it was you where already doing

Arkaine,
It is also within a note, within a Commentary at that, making it even more heavily weighed as Errata as it speaks nothing but intent. The Author had ample chance to explain exactly how they intended for it this exact type of situation to play out, and they chose to use wording like 'as soon as,' 'Slain' and 'immediately.' These are far from the words I would have chosen if I was trying to create an outcome where the Cover Save could only ever be granted to the Unit for Sequential attacks. By telling me that these things occur immediately on the Model being Slain, the Author has created a moment on the Timeline and granted the benefit of Cover from that point forward. Do not believe they intended to break things like Strength from Death, but them the... well, breaks.

As for Shooting attacks causing problems with things like Range and such...
It really is difficult to explain because the entire Sequence is so 'analog thinking' that it causes physical pain to think on it in any other way. The core of the problem is that it requires us to know how many Attacks each Model will generate, and where those attacks will be going, before we reach Steps in which such choices are made. It contains wording like resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next, which force us into making plans ahead of time and lock us into those plans so we can not change them with the changing circumstances... and even all this 'Analog thinking' would be a lot easier if Game Workshop wrote better Rules....

Still; we don't generate any Attacks till Step 3 and Targets for all weapons are selected at Step 2, that is why Range isn't an issue....

 Arkaine wrote:
So to answer your question, yes they would still get their +1 Armor Save

At first, I thought you were correct, because all shooting within a unit DOES happen in parallel. However, saves and inflicting damage happen sequentially. This is why giving only some models in a unit storm shields works.

I thought of a similar sequencing problem with Shrike:
Drop him and an Assault Squad 9" from an enemy unit.
Charge with Shrike because he's been given the warlord power that ignores Overwatch.
Successfully make charge and do the move.
The Assault Squad no longer benefits from Shrike's aura to re-roll charges because they're more than 6" away.

This means that you have to make another character your warlord, and have Shrike charge last to maximize his aura.

All shooting does not happen in parallel(or Simultaneously) it happens in sequence. Even a bolter double-tapping is 1 shot, fully resolved, then the next shot fully resolved. We usually roll both to-hits and both to-wounds together(often with multiple bolters making all their to-hits and to-wounds on the same unit) as fast-rolling because it doesn't really have any effect; but that doesn't change the fact that each attack is still in sequence in the rules.

Range, LOS, and who can attack is worked out before any attacks are made. So you cannot shoot yourself out of range with the same unit.

IE If I have 10 guys with bolters, and shoot at a squad that has 10 models but only 1 is within 24". All 10 bolters are still going to get to hit, wound, etc.

But everything else is done individually so you can not get, cover and then get cover. The catch 22 is to get cover you have to allocate, and lose all the models not in cover before any models get cover.

Makes sense? No. It's GW it's never made sense. They just tried to make it simple and fun. In the end I think they failed on the simplicity part. They made short rules that have led to a lot of FAQ's, and tons of debate thus far.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
All shooting does not happen in parallel(or Simultaneously) it happens in sequence. Even a bolter double-tapping is 1 shot, fully resolved, then the next shot fully resolved. We usually roll both to-hits and both to-wounds together(often with multiple bolters making all their to-hits and to-wounds on the same unit) as fast-rolling because it doesn't really have any effect; but that doesn't change the fact that each attack is still in sequence in the rules.

From what I read, it can be done in either format according to the Shooting Player, so long as all the Attacks share the same profile. The only thing that is required is that you can't process Shooting two or more units at the same time. At least according to Fast Dice Rolling in the Battle Primer I have handy.

This isn't like 6th Edition where we are specifically told to consider them all Shooting at the same time, or process each Weapon Name one at a time (but all Shots for each Weapon Name were simultaneous) like in 7th.