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Made in gb
Crazed Cultist of Khorne




Just my views on fixing the conscript spam issue. First off i think the pricing is correct- they are the lowest of the low and in general the stats are correct its the synergy that needs to be corrcted.

1. Limit unit size to 30. While the removal of the platoon restrictions means you can still take as many units as you want the smaller size limits order and morale effectiveness (below).

2. Orders only suceed on a 4+ ith any failed attempts counting towards the officers allowed number. This reprsents the fact that whether they are pdf, prisoners, whiteshields or militia they are less trained and disciplined than regular guardsmen.

3. Save is changed to 6+. One of the biggest issues is that a lot of the classic anti horde weapons now have no ap so losing a third less troops than they usually would.

4. Change it so that summary execution only affects one unit per turn per commisar. You choose 1 unit at the start of the morale phase and if they fail that test they only lose one model. This brings them into line with 7th when you would attach the commisar and they benefitted from summary execution as well.
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!




A Place

1 & 2, fair enough, but I would test each individually before applying both.

3, Just doesn't make sense and doesn't really change much. They have the same gear as guardsmen, so why would the same armour provide less protection just because they don't have as much training? Out of six wound they would only take one additional wound with the nerf, so you kill 25 instead of 20? I don't think that difference is enough to warrant the fluff issue of inexplicably less protective armour.

4, Is just a nerf to commissars which affects the whole guard army not just conscripts, and they are only overly powerful with conscripts so it is just unnecessary. If you really want something like this just make it so they can only affect one squad of conscripts at a time, but interact with other infantry as they do now, but I doubt that would be necessary after 1 & 2.
   
Made in gb
Crazed Cultist of Khorne




 NL_Cirrus wrote:
1 & 2, fair enough, but I would test each individually before applying both.

3, Just doesn't make sense and doesn't really change much. They have the same gear as guardsmen, so why would the same armour provide less protection just because they don't have as much training? Out of six wound they would only take one additional wound with the nerf, so you kill 25 instead of 20? I don't think that difference is enough to warrant the fluff issue of inexplicably less protective armour.

4, Is just a nerf to commissars which affects the whole guard army not just conscripts, and they are only overly powerful with conscripts so it is just unnecessary. If you really want something like this just make it so they can only affect one squad of conscripts at a time, but interact with other infantry as they do now, but I doubt that would be necessary after 1 & 2.


The problem i see with only using 1 and 2 is that it doesnt stop people taking multiple detachments with hundreds of conscripts. I think they need to be easier to kill and stop 3/4 squads using one well hidden commissar.

As an aside, i use a penal unit theme for my conscripts so could well imagine the munitorum not particularly caring if they had the best armour or not. No shortcuts in gaining the emporer's redemption!
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





I actually have said I think the only fix is just to remove their armor save. For their points they are too durable. You may not think it makes fluff sense, but it makes sense from a balance standpoint for their points. With their current stats they should be ~5 points per model. But at that cost I don't think they get played at all.
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Conscripts are actually 1/4 more durable than terminators vs ap0 weapons point-for-point. And are 2.22 times shootier. 4.44 if you count in orders. Around 4 times shootier if termies have re-rolls to-hit.

Those are the mightiest warriors of humanity. Why did imperium bother with marines all in all. Just throw more conscripts in - they're better all around.

Anywayz, the thing that they deal a lot of damage point-per-point. And are extremely sturdy. Just think about it. A conscript shooting his lazgun 4 times is only ~25% worse at killing a tank than a space marine with a lazcannon point-for-point while being 5 times more durable even vs dedicated anti-infantry weapons.

There's a very easy fix to this. Nerf a comissar and orders. Orders should simply not work on conscripts. And comissar should execute d6 dudes instead of just one. Still a very good unit for it's price and still does what it's supposed to. But at least not over the top effective. Taking away the comissar entirely will simply nerf them to the ground, however.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/09/14 12:32:17


 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Cultist of Khorne




 koooaei wrote:
Conscripts are actually 1/4 more durable than terminators vs ap0 weapons point-for-point. And are 2.22 times shootier. 4.44 if you count in orders. Around 4 times shootier if termies have re-rolls to-hit.

Those are the mightiest warriors of humanity. Why did imperium bother with marines all in all. Just throw more conscripts in - they're better all around.

Anywayz, the thing that they deal a lot of damage point-per-point. And are extremely sturdy. Just think about it. A conscript shooting his lazgun 4 times is only ~25% worse at killing a tank than a space marine with a lazcannon point-for-point while being 5 times more durable even vs dedicated anti-infantry weapons.

There's a very easy fix to this. Nerf a comissar and orders. Orders should simply not work on conscripts. And comissar should execute d6 dudes instead of just one. Still a very good unit for it's price and still does what it's supposed to. But at least not over the top effective. Taking away the comissar entirely will simply nerf them to the ground, however.


Well in the terminator comparison you don't have the deployment or weapon options for conscripts. In your example you're using two completely different units in a vacuum without considering how to use them on the battlefield. If you have them both marching up the table then yes the terminators will fare worse.

Conscripts are exactly the same morale wise from last edition if you look at as 1 comissar to 1 unit of conscripts. AoE summary execution has made multiple squads more durable as well as the disappearance of ap from bolters, flamers etc. Having a comissar in the squad also raised its leadership making it more likely to accept orders, again like this edition.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





That is why the fix is changing their save.

The issue in this edition (as much as I like the change to AP) is that every "anti-infantry" gun is actually better against elite infantry than against chaff. In past editions Bolters At AP5, required 60 hits to kill 10 marines (130 points) but only 15 hits to kill 10 GEQ, conscripts at 3 points, 30 points, So 60 hit would kill 40 Conscripts in last edition or 120 points. Much closer to the marines in durability. Now it still takes 60 bolter hits to kill 10 marines, but takes 22.5 to kill 10 Conscripts. SO those 60 hits kill only ~27 conscripts or 81 points. So almost 50 points more durability, and that assumes un-upgraded marines.

If you remove the save from conscripts, you go back to having similar durability for the points as a squad of 10 marines against anti-infantry fire. Marines still lose out against high AP weapons (as the should).

Another good fix to hordes in general is to have damage from "blast" weapons carry over against 1 wound models. Your cheap chaff got hit by a big explosion, they die in droves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 12:57:46


 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Cultist of Khorne




Breng77 wrote:
That is why the fix is changing their save.

The issue in this edition (as much as I like the change to AP) is that every "anti-infantry" gun is actually better against elite infantry than against chaff. In past editions Bolters At AP5, required 60 hits to kill 10 marines (130 points) but only 15 hits to kill 10 GEQ, conscripts at 3 points, 30 points, So 60 hit would kill 40 Conscripts in last edition or 120 points. Much closer to the marines in durability. Now it still takes 60 bolter hits to kill 10 marines, but takes 22.5 to kill 10 Conscripts. SO those 60 hits kill only ~27 conscripts or 81 points. So almost 50 points more durability, and that assumes un-upgraded marines.

If you remove the save from conscripts, you go back to having similar durability for the points as a squad of 10 marines against anti-infantry fire. Marines still lose out against high AP weapons (as the should).

Another good fix to hordes in general is to have damage from "blast" weapons carry over against 1 wound models. Your cheap chaff got hit by a big explosion, they die in droves.


I agree that saves do need to be reduced, just thought that as there were a couple of other areas to address that fully removing it would go too far.

Like the blast idea, maybe should apply to squads of 20 or more rather than 1 wound so as not to punish 1 wound elite units.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





I would base it around something like Save rather than unit size, unit size has issues where you have a unit that was 20 and is now 19 and blasts stop being as useful. Maybe something like damage carries over reduced by 6- unmodified armor Save (min 0). So a unit with a 3+ armor save would damage -3 for carryover. So for a D6 damage blast on a 6 would do 1 wound to the initial target -3 damage so 2 would carry over, whereas for a unit with a 6+ save all 5 damage would carry over. A D3 damage weapon would never carry over against 4+ saves or better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 14:09:38


 
   
Made in us
Waaagh! Warbiker




Somewhere near Hamburg

-Orders require leadership test

-Commissars dont work on Conscripts period.

In this rare case I dont care about the fluff. Commissars+Conscripts are just broken atm.

Nerf them to hell. Dont care. Conscripts should be meatshields and not the heroes of the Imperium.

Edit: While we're at it: Up the max unit size of normal Guardsmen to 20 and let them take 1 special weapon per 10.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/23 01:08:08


Astra Milit..*blam* Astra Milliwhat, heretic? 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




I thought of something don't know if it's a terrible idea or not. How about at the start of each turn player or opponents, roll a d6 for a conscript squad. On a roll of 6 they are immune to orders or commisar execution. That way an opponent can take an opportunity to really focus down conscripts or possibly the conscripts fail to follow orders of a superior since it's their first battle and they are watching in horror as a carnifex flips over a tank and slices 5 men in half.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Midnightmullen wrote:
I thought of something don't know if it's a terrible idea or not. How about at the start of each turn player or opponents, roll a d6 for a conscript squad. On a roll of 6 they are immune to orders or commisar execution. That way an opponent can take an opportunity to really focus down conscripts or possibly the conscripts fail to follow orders of a superior since it's their first battle and they are watching in horror as a carnifex flips over a tank and slices 5 men in half.


The problem here is this will only happen once per game per conscript unit most of the time. So if the conscript unit doesn't become vulnerable until later in the game, they've probably already done their job. The issue with conscripts isn't that they can't be killed eventually. It's that they soak up too much fire and do too much damage point for point until then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Morkphoiz wrote:
-Orders require leadership test

-Commissars dont work on Conscripts period.

In this rare case I dont care about the fluff. Commissars+Conscripts are just broken atm.

Nerf them to hell. Dont care. Conscripts should be meatshields and not the heroes of the Imperium.

Edit: While we're at it: Up the max unit size of normal Guardsmen to 20 and let them take 1 special weapon per 10.


This would be the simplest and quickest fix, and I agree that cheap meat shields should be little more than that. However, the waves of bodies coerced into action by their commanders thing is kind of a cornerstone of IG playstyle. I wouldn't be opposed to trying out some less radical nerfs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breng77 wrote:
I would base it around something like Save rather than unit size, unit size has issues where you have a unit that was 20 and is now 19 and blasts stop being as useful. Maybe something like damage carries over reduced by 6- unmodified armor Save (min 0). So a unit with a 3+ armor save would damage -3 for carryover. So for a D6 damage blast on a 6 would do 1 wound to the initial target -3 damage so 2 would carry over, whereas for a unit with a 6+ save all 5 damage would carry over. A D3 damage weapon would never carry over against 4+ saves or better.


Neat idea that probably deserves its own thread. What's the argument against simply increasing the number of shots generated by "blast" weapons based on squad size?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Punisher23 wrote:
Just my views on fixing the conscript spam issue. First off i think the pricing is correct- they are the lowest of the low and in general the stats are correct its the synergy that needs to be corrcted.

1. Limit unit size to 30. While the removal of the platoon restrictions means you can still take as many units as you want the smaller size limits order and morale effectiveness (below).

2. Orders only suceed on a 4+ ith any failed attempts counting towards the officers allowed number. This reprsents the fact that whether they are pdf, prisoners, whiteshields or militia they are less trained and disciplined than regular guardsmen.

3. Save is changed to 6+. One of the biggest issues is that a lot of the classic anti horde weapons now have no ap so losing a third less troops than they usually would.

4. Change it so that summary execution only affects one unit per turn per commisar. You choose 1 unit at the start of the morale phase and if they fail that test they only lose one model. This brings them into line with 7th when you would attach the commisar and they benefitted from summary execution as well.


I like these quite a bit. I think this may be my favorite set of conscript nerfs aside from the "don't let conscripts benefit from orders/commissars at all" approach.

1. This part in a vacuum isn't super helpful as people can just take multiple squads, but it ties into your other proposed changes well.

2. I'd be okay with this. 50/50 odds to not have your special rules work can be frustrating, but I think this is a decent compromise between "Orders are OP on conscripts" and "let's not let conscripts have orders at all."

3. I'd be okay with this, but this really only matters if you can nerf or remove summary execution.

4. I like this in that it basically adds a heavier commissar tax to conscript armies. However, armies that are only running one or two units of conscripts backed by commissars won't really be hindered much.

So in short, I think you're going in the right direction, but I still think that making conscripts essentially immune to morale makes them extremely difficult to balance around.


Question for guard players: Are conscripts unplayable if you simply say SE doesn't work on them? Sure, you'd lose tons of bodies to morale if you blobbed them up to benefit from orders, but taking them in multiple smalll squads would force your opponent to deal with a bunch of small cheap squads. Opponent feels good about killing lots of units. Conscripts are still numerous enough to serve as front line meat shields and objective grabbers. You just don't have as much incentive to run the fearless, orders receiving megablob.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/23 15:44:30



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in mk
Longtime Dakkanaut






I still reckon not letting them have orders and maxing out at, say, 30 per squad would mitigate most of the problems.
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

I think the "limit to 30" is a good idea.

For the rest:

Requires Supervision: A friendly model that uses an aura ability on this unit cannot affect other models of the same unit type this turn.

Thus you can only have a single given officer order one conscript unit a turn, and a given commissar can only do summary execution on one conscript squad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/24 01:28:32


It never ends well 
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User





Perth

Punisher23 wrote:
Just my views on fixing the conscript spam issue. First off i think the pricing is correct- they are the lowest of the low and in general the stats are correct its the synergy that needs to be corrcted.



My Estimation of points values of :
Conscript - 4.6
Infantry Squad - 5.6

Which is significantly off that they cost.

Noting Estimation of value for
Gretchin - 3.46
Hormagaunts - 4.16 (No counting their 6 inch consolidation)
Termagarnts - 4.87

Which are hoard army but point cost is closer to the actual cost.

The if the saves were completely removed then this would put them at roughly the correct points cost.
Estimated Value without a save
Conscript - 3.79
Infantry Squad - 4.65





   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

You know, if you take a handful of sniper-type weapons, you can plink off a Commissar pretty easily.

So... adapt.

If you don't have that option, guess what? Too bad. You know what people used to do with flyers back in the day when they had no AA? Ignored them. You know what you do with a Wraithknight you have no answer to? You ignore it.

Play around them if they're so utterly terrifying you can't survive the thought of leaving them alone, and targeting other things. Just. Play. Around. Them.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 greatbigtree wrote:
You know, if you take a handful of sniper-type weapons, you can plink off a Commissar pretty easily.

So... adapt.

If you don't have that option, guess what? Too bad. You know what people used to do with flyers back in the day when they had no AA? Ignored them. You know what you do with a Wraithknight you have no answer to? You ignore it.

Play around them if they're so utterly terrifying you can't survive the thought of leaving them alone, and targeting other things. Just. Play. Around. Them.

1. Not everyone has snipers.
2. When it came to AA there was literally only TWO broken fliers, which was the Heldrake and Night Scythe. You could ignore the rest.

So you're being a Conscript apologist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you couldn't just ignore a Wraithknight. If that were REALLY the case nobody wouldn't used them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/24 07:26:01


 
   
 
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